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Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)

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13 hours ago, mcmicken said:

"Normally". 10 years ago we would have killed for the amount of renovation happening in Over-the-Rhine. It's fine, just a lull, though the nature of increased property costs and construction cost increases probably are slowing things a bit.

 

3CDC has active projects other than the Columbia, there are also some big 3CDC projects in the works still, as well as a number of small developers including infill. Model is on phase 3 of the Market Square but that is almost all north of Findlay so no one sees it. East McMicken has a number of projects in pre-development that will pop in the next year.There are a couple of infill projects on Vine south of Liberty in the pipeline and at least one large project on Vine north of Liberty permitted and ready to start (1725 Vine). If either of the monster projects on Sycamore or Freeport Row kick off there will be ton of activity.

Increased construction costs have put a serious damper on my project.  Costs have nearly doubled in 2 years!

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Also, the news outlets are now running front news headlines for otr robberies. 

 

2 men shot yesterday near w McMicken during a mugging , and a women yesterday walking down elm St was robbed at gunpoint by 2 men. 

 

Murders, Muggings, Businesses closing, slow lull development year. Yikes man.

 

Otr was having this really great momentum..crime felt lower, less businesses closing year over year, infill and rehab left and right... everything just feels so off with otr this year.

 

 

Edited by troeros

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There's a lot of businesses and competition now in OTR, and there hasn't been enough of a downtown population increase to keep up with supply.  The new CBD residential projects being built will help, but that's not enough either.  I'm don't think the closings say anything more than there's a lot of competition, and the crime will go away as development moves to McMicken. 

 

I think the population needs to double downtown for OTR to sustainably support a built-out mixed-use environment.  There's just been more commercial development than residential so far. It isn't dense enough. North of Liberty, Court area of CBD, and Pendleton need more housing.

Edited by 10albersa

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19 minutes ago, troeros said:

Also, the news outlets are now running front news headlines for otr robberies. 

 

2 men shot yesterday near w McMicken during a mugging , and a women yesterday walking down elm St was robbed at gunpoint by 2 men. 

 

Murders, Muggings, Businesses closing, slow lull development year. Yikes man.

 

Otr was having this really great momentum..crime felt lower, less businesses closing year over year, infill and rehab left and right... everything just feels so off with otr this year.

 

 

You could say that with OTR I believe it was last year or the year before when there were multiple shootings within a couple weeks. The rook closing sucks but it seems it was more to do with ownership, not the amount of customers, I honestly assumed bretzel would close eventually due to new competition in the area with Brown Bear Bakery. It does seem like a weird trend but I am sure OTR will be just fine.

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Just looking at the new liquor licenses issued in OTR in this calendar year

 

Holiday Spirits

Social OTR

Platform

Urban Axes

Wodka Bar

Oddfellows/Mikeys

Zundo

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11 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

Just looking at the new liquor licenses issued in OTR in this calendar year

 

Holiday Spirits

Social OTR

Platform

Urban Axes

Wodka Bar

Oddfellows/Mikeys

Zundo

 

Yea, the new businesses and positive developments vastly outweigh the negative. Add in new developments in the CBD and Pendleton and I don't see any reason to believe that we're heading anywhere but the right direction. 

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10 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

Just looking at the new liquor licenses issued in OTR in this calendar year

 

Holiday Spirits

Social OTR

Platform

Urban Axes

Wodka Bar

Oddfellows/Mikeys

Zundo

 

I've been following otr development for a good 5 years now. 

 

My notes are:

 

3cdc is struggling to some extent with leasing for new tenant. 

 

The new construction corner facing Tafts and houses poke hut, was finished early this January and none of the new development commercial spaces have been rented out. 

 

Even when a new business leaves, 3cdc typically takes almost 6 months to over a year to find a replacement. 

 

I've heard multiple negative rumors about 3cdc and have always been told that if you plan to open a business avoid 3cdc and negotiate with urban sites or the model group. 

 

If the rumors are true then it's a bit unfortunate that 3cdc owns so many of the ground floor commercial space it otr.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/27/2017 at 5:38 AM, troeros said:

So I'm curious what you guys think...But does anyone else feel as if things have been slowing down development wise in OTR?

 

For instance, the Business Courier wrote an article about some of the historic tax credit projects, and no 3cdc project had won.

 

Even during the past few months of the HCB. Really nothing, to very little in OTR (in terms of new rehabs, or new infill development), or around the city in general.

 

I don't know if it's just that winter is a, "lull" period, or if development is just indeed slowing down in OTR......I guess it's just that OTR seemed like a focal point on this subsection, and it's always felt like something new was going in OTR. But lately it just feels, "dead". What do you guys think?


You said the same thing 18 months ago.

When you look at something too closely it can feel like things are slower than before. The past all seems to have happened so fast. As others have pointed out, there is still a lot happening around Findlay Market especially.

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Downtown and OTR rank first and second among all neighborhoods in the city for building permits this year. Here are the numbers by year:

 

2019 (so far)

 

Downtown 122

OTR 104

Hyde Park 79

Oakley 62

Evanston 55

Northside 49

Madisonville 49

East Price Hill 47

Westwood 40 

Mt. Auburn 40

 

2018

 

Downtown 243

Hyde Park 162

OTR 160

Northside 141

Oakley 116

Evanston 108

Madisonville 98

Avondale 90

CUF 84

Westwood 83

 

2017

 

OTR 284

Downtown 236

Hyde Park 183

Northside 157

Oakley 120

Evanston 104

Mt. Auburn 94

Westwood 92

Walnut Hills 87

Avondale 82

 

 

 

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Also, I think it's only natural for things to switch to a more normalized pace over time. You can't keep sustaining massive growth. As the low hanging fruit is picked, developers have to work harder to see profitable projects. These take more time and are often more difficult projects. Pretty much every land owner in OTR knows what they have now, so even some of the low-hanging fruit has a higher barrier for entry than it did 4 years ago when some were still selling buildings for cheap.

And you have to keep in mind that there may be outlier years where for whatever reason (tax incentives, economic conditions, etc) a bunch of projects get moving at once. I would predict any time there is a lag in development, the following year will typically outpace what would be expected because people are still working out projects.

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The Sycamore or Freeport Row projects will be huge for the area if they can ever get started.  There just aren't many areas in OTR/Pendleton big enough to support large residential projects like this.  The Columbia building that 3CDC is renovating now is a big space but it will only be 36 units.  An influx of of 100+ residential units would really add more foot traffic to the area.  

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20 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

The Sycamore or Freeport Row projects will be huge for the area if they can ever get started.  There just aren't many areas in OTR/Pendleton big enough to support large residential projects like this.  The Columbia building that 3CDC is renovating now is a big space but it will only be 36 units.  An influx of of 100+ residential units would really add more foot traffic to the area.  

 

Speaking of Freeport Row that project has become so bizarre.

 

They announce last year they would start in the fall...biz journal this spring said they will start shortly..

 

So far only dirt has been kicked around. 

 

Are the developers having financing issues? Its just stalled without a peep.

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Land and buildings are now horrendously expensive in OTR.  A pair of vacant lots on Wade, just west of Elm, are listed for $175k & $225k.  This means you need to be building a million dollar home to justify those land costs.  

 

The high prices have pushed a lot of small-time people over into the West End and up to Camp Washington.  Prices have accelerated rapidly all the way over toward Baymiller and Colerain.  

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^I wouldn't worry too much about OTR, to my eyes it is still booming, I go to Findlay Market often and that area has changed dramatically and will continue to do so. I think a structured garage is in order around the Findlay Market area then it will really take off even quicker, especially if they fix up the Findlay Park area then that will jog development from Findlay Market over to Vine Street then down connecting from there.

 

I also think that the Liberty Street Project will have a really positive impact of moving more development North of Liberty.

 

Next, there are some big projects going on downtown proper which we have alluded to in other threads. To me, this is the most important part as 3CDC shifts their main focus down that way. We will get more population, more hotels, etc. All this adds to demand for OTR. Maybe it is in a bit of a lull but it isn't like it is in bad shape and people have closed up shop.

 

Lastly, there is crime in OTR but holy cow, I remember when I moved in 2013 to Walnut Street area there was muggings all the time. Literally all the time. I got jumped, my roommate got jumped, two of my neighbors got jumped, I talked to people of a friend who got knifed, there was high speed chases, gun shots, etc. It really has turned a huge corner even since 2013. 3CDC is working on the projects North and on the corner of 15th Street in Vine and eventually Kroger space, all this shows the momentum is continuing to go and 3CDC will always be pushing even if there is a lull with other developers. Someone mentioned that the construction costs have made their own project unfeasible, but the fact of the matter is that all these things end up working out one way or another with the economy, prices, etc. So if there is a lull now and for a couple years, after that it will boom again. I wouldn't worry about it!

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30 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Land and buildings are now horrendously expensive in OTR.  A pair of vacant lots on Wade, just west of Elm, are listed for $175k & $225k.  This means you need to be building a million dollar home to justify those land costs.  

 

The high prices have pushed a lot of small-time people over into the West End and up to Camp Washington.  Prices have accelerated rapidly all the way over toward Baymiller and Colerain.  

 

This cute little home popped up on Redfin yesterday. Excited to see more development happening in Camp Washington.

 

https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cincinnati/3069-Henshaw-Ave-45225/home/76074217

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https://local12.com/news/local/series-of-burglaries-happened-in-over-the-rhine

 

I've noticed 2 trends lately:

 

1) News outlets are now covering crime about otr that would normally not be reported (burgarlies, Muggings, etc). It seems like covering murders and shots wasn't enough clicks so they are adding everything and anything crime related about otr front news.

 

2) Media outlets will say "Over the Rhine" when it's related to crime activity. They will use the abbreviation "OTR" when they are making a headline about a trendy new bar/resturaunt/development, etc.

 

Soon we will have people think otr and over the Rhine are 2 different places. Clever media tricks.

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6 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

This cute little home popped up on Redfin yesterday. Excited to see more development happening in Camp Washington.

 

https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cincinnati/3069-Henshaw-Ave-45225/home/76074217

 

That thing is already under contract.  Unfortunately these sorts of homes are targeted by landlords and Airbnb investors so I'm not sure that we're ever going to see significant owner-occupation in Camp Washington.  

 

I do expect that we'll start to see flipping in South Cumminsville shortly as it's the only place left in the basin that hasn't been touched.  It has no commercial strip and downright bad access to major roads but at some point people aren't going to pay Northside or Downtown prices.  

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

Also, I think it's only natural for things to switch to a more normalized pace over time. You can't keep sustaining massive growth. As the low hanging fruit is picked, developers have to work harder to see profitable projects. These take more time and are often more difficult projects. Pretty much every land owner in OTR knows what they have now, so even some of the low-hanging fruit has a higher barrier for entry than it did 4 years ago when some were still selling buildings for cheap.

And you have to keep in mind that there may be outlier years where for whatever reason (tax incentives, economic conditions, etc) a bunch of projects get moving at once. I would predict any time there is a lag in development, the following year will typically outpace what would be expected because people are still working out projects.

 My gut says that the region is simply not growing fast enough to maintain the early bursts of construction activity we saw in OTR. So yes, it's simply going to normalize to the rather meager population gains we are seeing in the metro.  

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14 hours ago, TheCOV said:

 My gut says that the region is simply not growing fast enough to maintain the early bursts of construction activity we saw in OTR. So yes, it's simply going to normalize to the rather meager population gains we are seeing in the metro.  

 

This is a really important thing to keep in mind. With a city that's only growing 1% or 2% per year population-wise, there's only so much new development that can be sustained. And out of that small number of people moving to the city, an even smaller number are going to want to live in downtown/OTR and the majority are going to want a traditional single family home. That explains the growth in Hyde Park, Oakley, and Northside that has nearly caught up to downtown/OTR. There just aren't that many people who are going to decide to move from Milford or West Chester or Colerain Township to the urban core. So without something dramatically changing (perhaps the new Fortune 500 HQ that the Josephs keep promising!) development is going to continue at about this pace.

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55 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

This is a really important thing to keep in mind. With a city that's only growing 1% or 2% per year population-wise, there's only so much new development that can be sustained. And out of that small number of people moving to the city, an even smaller number are going to want to live in downtown/OTR and the majority are going to want a traditional single family home. That explains the growth in Hyde Park, Oakley, and Northside that has nearly caught up to downtown/OTR. There just aren't that many people who are going to decide to move from Milford or West Chester or Colerain Township to the urban core. So without something dramatically changing (perhaps the new Fortune 500 HQ that the Josephs keep promising!) development is going to continue at about this pace.

 

I mean are we talking about the 40 year old West Chester couple? Or the 23 year old UC grad student who goes to downtown and otr every weekend to eat and party and hang out?

 

My generation utterly hates the suburbs. 

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Hating the suburbs isn't the same thing as moving downtown. The growth of Northside/Oakley/Pleasant Ridge is partially due to people who want to be close (a 10 to 20 minute drive or Uber ride) to downtown but still have a single family home in an affordable neighborhood.

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3 hours ago, taestell said:

That explains the growth in Hyde Park, Oakley, and Northside that has nearly caught up to downtown/OTR.

 

Northside maybe to some extent, but the zoning in Hyde Park and Oakley is so tight that building permits are mostly being issued for remodels or tear-downs and rebuilds.  Permits aren't a good indicator of growth, but maybe for vibrance or desirability.  

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There is a big difference between the post-2010 housing recovery and everything before it.  The banks aren't funding the same sort of highly-leveraged condo and suburban subdivision developments that they had been since WWII.  Developers are forced to put much more of their own money into these things than they had to 10+ years ago, which is why far fewer of them are happening.  Like half as many as in 2007-08:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST

 

That's why all of these neighborhoods across the country are coming back -- because there isn't as much new product + more and more people can afford to move out of mom's basement.

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Rookwood Pottery has closed it's Jackson Street store. Will move into a new store in Kenwood mall. 

 

States that the street parking situation as a reason for the move. ..

 

This makes the 4th Business to leave OTR in the last 6 months. 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, troeros said:

Rookwood Pottery has closed it's Jackson Street store. Will move into a new store in Kenwood mall. 

 

 

Does anyone know why the upper floors of that building have never been occupied?  It does not appear that any work has been performed on the apartments since Jim Tarbell sold the building around 2011.  

 

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On 6/15/2019 at 3:35 PM, taestell said:

That explains the growth in Hyde Park, Oakley, and Northside that has nearly caught up to downtown/OTR. There just aren't that many people who are going to decide to move from Milford or West Chester or Colerain Township to the urban core. So without something dramatically changing (perhaps the new Fortune 500 HQ that the Josephs keep promising!) development is going to continue at about this pace.

 

Honestly I think the only restraint on urban core growth is supply right now. We wanted to buy downtown or in OTR but price and lack of supply limited us. So we bought a house that we love in Northside, but we had to give up walking to work--which is a bummer for us. On our block there are a few other families that would've been closer to downtown if possible. There's also a good mix of folks from out-of-state and folks who grew up in the Cincy suburbs. I do think there are a lot more folks in West Chester, Milford, etc. who are looking to make the move closer and would choose downtown/OTR but will probably end up in Northside, Walnut, Hills, Evanston, etc. 

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39 minutes ago, troeros said:

Rookwood Pottery has closed it's Jackson Street store. Will move into a new store in Kenwood mall. 

 

States that the street parking situation as a reason for the move. ..

 

This makes the 4th Business to leave OTR in the last 6 months. 

 

 

 

Rookwood still has a shop (and a sizable parking lot) at their production building near Findlay Market. I always thought the other store was overkill because their showroom is interesting and has a much more unique feel to it - you walk by the raw materials, kilns, etc.

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1 minute ago, Ram23 said:

 

Rookwood still has a shop (and a sizable parking lot) at their production building near Findlay Market. I always thought the other store was overkill because their showroom is interesting and has a much more unique feel to it - you walk by the raw materials, kilns, etc.

 

Yes... But multiple Businesses are starting to echo similar statements about the parking situation hurting their businesses. 

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If your business closed due to a parking situation that only changed a few months ago then you didn't have a very good business, and it was likely going to fail anyways.  People just like using this parking change as an excuse now when it was actually just their bad business that failed.  Sorry but I don't feel sorry for you and your straw man excuse. 

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27 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

If your business closed due to a parking situation that only changed a few months ago then you didn't have a very good business, and it was likely going to fail anyways.  People just like using this parking change as an excuse now when it was actually just their bad business that failed.  Sorry but I don't feel sorry for you and your straw man excuse. 

 

Right. I would probably attribute rising rent costs more likely for otr Businesses in recent years for commercial tenants rather than the parking situation. 

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35 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Right. I would probably attribute rising rent costs more likely for otr Businesses in recent years for commercial tenants rather than the parking situation. 

That and just increased competition.  You said 4 businesses have closed in the last 6 months in OTR but I bet double or triple that have opened in that time.  The Anchor closed because the food wasn't anything special.  Brezel closed because all they sold were pretzels.  In an area with ever increasing new restaurants and bars you better do something to stand out.  

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The Jackson St. building is literally surrounded by a parking lot.  There is a 300+ space parking garage 50 feet to the south.  

 

So somebody is putting these people up to complain about parking.  

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Awe, Brezel closed? Maybe they'd have done better with a stall at Findlay or something. 


“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

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I agree the residential parking system isn't forcing these businesses out, but it's also a dumb program that well-off members of the community demanded so they could easily park in front of their house. It's a bad system and should have never been implemented (at least not to the scale currently). 

 

Instead of providing hundreds of spots to permit-only cars, they should have sold a permit that allows you to park in specially marked meter spots (mostly on side streets, not on Vine, Race, Walnut, etc) for a limited amount of time without feeding the meter. The number of metered spots should have been expanded to cover the entire South of Liberty area, leaving no entirely free parking.

In other words, they should make all of the current "permit only" spots into "flex spots". 

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Yeah I looked it up but 84 new business opened up in OTR from Sept 2016-Sept 2018. If that is the same pace that is 42 per year and 21 per 6 months. So 4 businesses closed while 21 opened in the last 6 months, that’s par for the course. 

 

 

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Events center coming to Findlay Market

 

AnnualManual_FindlayMarket_HB_8.5cffea2b

 

A developer plans to redevelop a single-story building near Findlay Market into an events space to host market vendors and those coming out of the Findlay Kitchen incubator program to open pop-up restaurants.

 

Jake and Miriam Hodesh are redeveloping 109 W. Elder St., a 2,000-square-foot property sold to them by the city in 2018 at a fair-market value of $27,500.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/06/17/events-center-coming-to-findlay-market.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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he residential street parking should be done away with. OTR streets are some of the most desirable parking spots in the metro area, and just like downtown streets they should pretty much all be metered spaces during normal metering hours.  Residents could still use them to park if they wanted to, they'd just have to pay the market rate. It's decidedly anti-urban to provide heavily subsidized, dedicated street parking in what's supposed to be the most walkable neighborhood in town. Meanwhile, neighborhoods like Clifton and CUF get by just fine without such a system, and are arguably more complete and walkable than downtown/OTR.

Edited by Ram23

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11 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

he residential street parking should be done away with. OTR streets are some of the most desirable parking spots in the metro area, and just like downtown streets they should pretty much all be metered spaces during normal metering hours.  Residents could still use them to park if they wanted to, they'd just have to pay the market rate. It's decidedly anti-urban to provide heavily subsidized, dedicated street parking in what's supposed to be the most walkable neighborhood in town. Meanwhile, neighborhoods like Clifton and CUF get by just fine without such a system, and are arguably more complete and walkable than downtown/OTR.

 

I could see a permit system for over-65 and handicapped residents.  But there is simply no question that nearly everyone who has bought or rented in OTR in the past ten years owns a car. As long as the majority of new residents own cars, the place is only going to have the appearance of an urban neighborhood.  

 

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i just don't get the logic behind letting residents park in the street.  Was there a big out-cry from residents about garage spots being too expensive? As long as we are going to be a car-centric city, the streets of OTR should be metered parking for people looking to spend money there from outside the basin.

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Basically every other large US city has residential parking permits like OTR's in their urban neighborhoods.  Why should we be different and cater to the visitors to the neighborhood and not the residents who actually live there? 

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