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Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)

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Having been to the NOLA twice in the last year for weddings, if OTR ends up like the French Quarter I will consider it a massive failure. The French Quarter is a very cool place, but it’s also far dirtier, seedier, and more claustrophobic than OTR is now. It has a sort of grime that attaches to every surface, whether it’s a thin layer of vomit (I’m not kidding) or the accumulated patina of so many tidying-ups but not one wholesale refresh (like what we’ve been afforded with OTR.) I’d prefer we continue to look to Old City or Brooklyn for inspiration rather than the French Quarter—and certainly not anything within a good distance of Nashville. 

Edited by Pdrome513
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1 hour ago, taestell said:

What you are essentially asking for is for OTR to become what Main Street was in the the 1990s. Nothing but a party zone. No high end condos, no office space, no nice restaurants, just bars and bars and bars.

 

As someone who was drawn to this neighborhood based on the late 2000s version of the neighborhood, and invested here based on that vision, I absolutely do not want the neighborhood to devolve back into a party zone where drunken crowds trash the neighborhood every weekend and residents have to deal with cleaning up the mess. I understand that as a downtown neighborhood, we will always have more than our fair share of bars and will be a destination for people from other places to party, and I'm fine with that. But you have to have a balance between that and amenities that neighborhood residents want. If 3CDC's vision for OTR was Beale Street, I would have never invested here in the first place.

 

Exactly. Nashville has nothing remotely like Over-the-Rhine. Advocating for a party zone to the exclusion of office, retail, and residential is a recipe for disaster.

 

1 hour ago, troeros said:

 

It's been sustainable for new Orleans and Nashville for quite some time now. 

 

Define sustainable. Bars and clubs generate ground floor traffic only and vacant upper floors. What is "cool" eventually changes (see Mt. Adams, Mainstrasse, 90's Main Street, etc). My guess is that the value of the property and the income from residents and office/retail employees is higher per comparable SF on Over-the-Rhine's Vine Street then Nashville's Broadway.

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1 minute ago, mcmicken said:

 

Exactly. Nashville has nothing remotely like Over-the-Rhine. Advocating for a party zone to the exclusion of office, retail, and residential is a recipe for disaster.

 

 

Define sustainable. Bars and clubs generate ground floor traffic only and vacant upper floors. What is "cool" eventually changes (see Mt. Adams, Mainstrasse, 90's Main Street, etc). My guess is that the value of the property and the income from residents and office/retail employees is higher per comparable SF on Over-the-Rhine's Vine Street then Nashville's Broadway.

 

I could argue that the success of Broadway street has trickled down to the rest of Nashville and created a ripple effect of development. New hotels, new residential skyscrapers, new mixed use development...I honestly believe it's due to the unbelievable success of Broadway street becoming a magnet for local and international tourists 24/7 of the calendar year. 

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2 minutes ago, troeros said:

I could argue that the success of Broadway street has trickled down to the rest of Nashville and created a ripple effect of development. New hotels, new residential skyscrapers, new mixed use development...I honestly believe it's due to the unbelievable success of Broadway street becoming a magnet for local and international tourists 24/7 of the calendar year. 


Okay... Even if this is the case, I'm still not seeing how this applies to OTR as a successful, sustainable mixed-use district.

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If Cincinnati wants a wide street with large bars, restaurants, music venues, clubs and sporting events... oh wait it's called Freedom Way and Cincinnati already has one. All we need to do is make it an open container district (or Outdoor Refreshment Area) and we will be done. It even already has a Tin Roof!

Edited by ucgrady

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45 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I could argue that the success of Broadway street has trickled down to the rest of Nashville and created a ripple effect of development. New hotels, new residential skyscrapers, new mixed use development...I honestly believe it's due to the unbelievable success of Broadway street becoming a magnet for local and international tourists 24/7 of the calendar year. 

 

Nashville has strip clubs -- lots of them -- whereas Cincinnati has zero and NKY's aren't real strip clubs.  

 

 

 

 

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OTR is pretty close to being past maturation of the bar/restaurant retail scene and we could see a shift over the next 18 months as most of the original Gateway Quarter leases are beginning to expire.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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2 hours ago, Pdrome513 said:

Having been to the NOLA twice in the last year for weddings, if OTR ends up like the French Quarter I will consider it a massive failure. The French Quarter is a very cool place, but it’s also far dirtier, seedier, and more claustrophobic than OTR is now. It has a sort of grime that attaches to every surface, whether it’s a thin layer of vomit (I’m not kidding) or the accumulated patina of so many tidying-ups but not one wholesale refresh (like what we’ve been afforded with OTR.) I’d prefer we continue to look to Old City or Brooklyn for inspiration rather than the French Quarter—and certainly not anything within a good distance of Nashville. 

 

Old City is a good example to follow, IMO. 2nd Street has a reputation of being party central, and it certainly is on the weekends, but the neighborhood as a whole has a healthy mix of office, retail, residential, and institutional uses. And the architecture is superb. I think this is where OTR is headed. 

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46 minutes ago, JYP said:

OTR is pretty close to being past maturation of the bar/restaurant retail scene and we could see a shift over the next 18 months as most of the original Gateway Quarter leases are beginning to expire.

 

That's interesting. I wonder if we will see some of the restaurants and retail shops that took a chance on Vine Street decide to seek out a different location in the neighborhood where they can get a more favorable lease (assuming 3CDC would try to raise their rent) and/or a larger space. I wouldn't be surprised if Model Group or UrbanSites poached one of the Dan Wright or Thunderdome restaurants into one of their storefronts. Dan Wright has already shown that he's willing to take another step into a less-developed section of the neighborhood by putting Holiday Spirits/Forty Thieves at Liberty & Race. It would have a huge impact in terms of spreading the successes of Vine Street out into other parts of the neighborhood.

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9 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

That's interesting. I wonder if we will see some of the restaurants and retail shops that took a chance on Vine Street decide to seek out a different location in the neighborhood where they can get a more favorable lease (assuming 3CDC would try to raise their rent) and/or a larger space. I wouldn't be surprised if Model Group or UrbanSites poached one of the Dan Wright or Thunderdome restaurants into one of their storefronts. Dan Wright has already shown that he's willing to take another step into a less-developed section of the neighborhood by putting Holiday Spirits/Forty Thieves at Liberty & Race. It would have a huge impact on the neighborhood in terms of spreading the successes of Vine Street out into other parts of the neighborhood.

 

When does Venice on Vine lease expires?

 

God bless them for their mission... But their pizza is average and their storefront is to large for a key corner of otr. 

 

I know they came at a time when otr was less desirable, but I really hope we see something more worthy on that corner.

Edited by troeros
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1 minute ago, troeros said:

 

When does Venice on Vine lease expires?

 

God bless them for their mission... But their pizza is average and their storefront is to large for a key corner of otr. 

 

I know they came at a time when otr was less desirable, but I really we see something more worthy on that corner.

They or OTRCH owns the building, I can't recall exactly but it has not been market rate owned in decades.

 

So they will be there as long they want to.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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1 minute ago, JYP said:

They or OTRCH owns the building, I can't recall exactly but it has not been market rate owned in decades.

 

So they will be there as long they want to.

 

Ah OTRCH. God bless those saints. Adding no value in the neighborhood whatsoever once again. 

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1 minute ago, troeros said:

 

Ah OTRCH. God bless those saints. Adding no value in the neighborhood whatsoever once again. 

That is an extremely nieve take on that organization. 

 

OTRCH provides affordable housing and has partnered with 3CDC on projects to further protect affordable units in the neighborhood.

 

Venice on Vine is a job training program for neighborhood kids and can help teach valuable skills. I bet many of the people trained here have gone on to work in the restaurants you covet so much in OTR.

 

http://pip-cincy.com/

 

These are valuable programs that help create a ladder of opportunity for the people whose families have lived in OTR for a generation or more.

Add to that both of these organizations worked in this neighborhood for years before anyone cared enough to form 3CDC and pour billions of dollars into it. The orgs that merged to form OTRCH were misguided and idealistic but in its current iteration, its a much-needed force for good in OTR.

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“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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I think troeros just got JYP-smacked!

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"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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12 hours ago, mcmicken said:

 

Exactly. Nashville has nothing remotely like Over-the-Rhine.

 

I remember when I lived in Tennesse 20~ years ago, well before Nashville's rise, and if Tennesseans had visited Cincinnati they were always sort of intimidated by it.  It was a notch more intense in every respect in the way that the most of the east coast is as compared to Cincinnati. 

 

I remember one girl telling me she had Mapquest directions off the highway to Bogart's that took her straight up Vine St. from downtown.  This was around 1998.  She was shocked and awed by the nonsense going on on Vine St. in OTR, then the hill, then the Short Vine strip, which was really eclectic and unpredictable at the time. 

 

Yeah, let's drive to Music City to hear worse cover bands than can be heard on a Tuesday night in any no-name Ohio town:

 

 

 

 

 

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@jmecklenborg I was walking from Liberty to Kroger on Vine following a couple and their child. Dad was wearing a Titan's hat. Kid said something and Mom says, "We're not in Nashville, Cincinnati is a big city." I have no idea what they were referring to, but I found it very amusing considering how Nashville proper is double the size of Cincinnati, and MSA-wise, Cincinnati is only 200,000 larger.

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1 hour ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

@jmecklenborg I was walking from Liberty to Kroger on Vine following a couple and their child. Dad was wearing a Titan's hat. Kid said something and Mom says, "We're not in Nashville, Cincinnati is a big city." I have no idea what they were referring to, but I found it very amusing considering how Nashville proper is double the size of Cincinnati, and MSA-wise, Cincinnati is only 200,000 larger.

I would say a lot of people do not know the populations of a lot of cities especially the populations of their metros. Cincinnati does have a larger city vibe especially downtown and OTR. Cincy is also over double the density of Nashville. 

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8 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

These dorky bar themes are what happens when a generation doesn't have rock & roll. 

 

My wife is pregnant so she doesn't/can't do bars at the moment because she gets bored if it's just me sitting on a stool drinking. 

 

She loves Tokyo Kitty though because of the private karaoke rooms and the fun atmosphere. 

 

I'm a huge believer of dual purpose bars that offer more than just drinking and playing pool/darts. 

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1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

These dorky bar themes are what happens when a generation doesn't have rock & roll. 

 

And they are super pee-shy. No troughs for them!

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1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

These dorky bar themes are what happens when a generation doesn't have rock & roll. 

 

If bars with patios and mariachi bands are dorky, sign me up as a certified dork! "La Ofrenda will also have a patio, and Trevino hopes to bring traveling mariachi bands to serenade patrons in the warmer months."

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Site work starts on $25M development near FC Cincinnati stadium

 

freeport-row*750xx1252-704-73-0.png

 

Site work has started on a long-planned mixed-use development near FC Cincinnati’s more than $250 million MLS stadium.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/05/02/site-work-starts-on-25m-development-near-stadium.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Headline is funny. This project was in the works before the FCC stadium was a twinkle in Lindner’s eye.  I wonder if we’ll see a shift in narrative from “streetcar is causing development” to “FCC stadium is causing development” and if that narrative will be encouraged and pushed hard by certain politicians who want to further abuse and scapegoat the streetcar. 

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www.cincinnatiideas.com

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Has the work on freeport row actually started?  I feel like I've read that headline multiple times over the last couple years but little to nothing changes with the land.  I really want to see this project happen so crossing my fingers this time is for real.  

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20 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Has the work on freeport row actually started?  I feel like I've read that headline multiple times over the last couple years but little to nothing changes with the land.  I really want to see this project happen so crossing my fingers this time is for real.  

About a month or so ago they did actually push some dirt around and pulled up (and palleted) the alley paver blocks. Past that I have not seen any actual construction work.

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That article also made it seem like they might build a portion of the parking garage along with the first phase of the project. I remember that being a big battle when the project was originally approved. The developer just wanted to build a surface lot now (with the option of turning it into a garage later) but the NIMBYs did not want the apartments to be approved without the garage.

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43 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

The vacant Diner just sold for $625,000.  It sits on a 90x90 square.  

diner.jpg

 

Apparently a press release from the new owners will happen relatively soon...From what I understand it is NOT going to be a new Hang Over Easy location. 

 

Whatever it ends up becoming, I do hope it operates late night to cater to the main st bar crowds. 

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3 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Site work starts on $25M development near FC Cincinnati stadium

 

freeport-row*750xx1252-704-73-0.png

 

Site work has started on a long-planned mixed-use development near FC Cincinnati’s more than $250 million MLS stadium.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/05/02/site-work-starts-on-25m-development-near-stadium.html

 

Is it just me, or is this a new rendering? It looks slightly altered compared to the previous renderings shown a year ago..did they change the color palatte or something? I don't know what it is, but it looks more appealing than it did before...

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Maybe I'm reading into this too much but if you look here

 

https://wedge1.hcauditor.org/view/re/0750004001800/2018/summary

 

It says the owner, Sycamore Diner LLC, address is;

312 WALNUT ST SUITE 3600 CINCINNATI OH 45202

 

If you google that you will find that Mayerson Organization is located in that address and in that suite. I might be connecting the wrong dots, but did a Jewish Non Profit Organization just purchase the diner?

 

The Mayerson Organization apperantly awards grant funds for jewish related projects.

 

https://www.mayersonfoundation.org/about/

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37 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

I'm surprised the diner sold for $325,000 in 1992.

 

I wonder if that included the Neon's parking lot.  

 

I remember going there for dinner on a Friday night in 1993 or 1994 and it was jammed with a line out the door.  There was a lot of stuff between there and Clay St. at the time and then north to Liberty.  The Emery Theater had regular events and Grammer's was open nightly.  

 

The circa-1985 owner was "Olde Sycamore Square".  One of the buildings across the street still has that signage.  Those might have been antique stores over there but I can't remember.  I just looked up that building and it looks like Gateway Federal Bank foreclosed on Olde Scyamore Square in 1992.  So if whoever owned that building back then is still alive, they have to drive past it to this day with that same signage!  

 

 

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^I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps it was bundled with additional properties. Even with the relative popularity of Main Street at the time, I have a hard time believing the diner sold for $325k in 1992 on its own.

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15 hours ago, troeros said:

Maybe I'm reading into this too much but if you look here

 

https://wedge1.hcauditor.org/view/re/0750004001800/2018/summary

 

It says the owner, Sycamore Diner LLC, address is;

312 WALNUT ST SUITE 3600 CINCINNATI OH 45202

 

If you google that you will find that Mayerson Organization is located in that address and in that suite. I might be connecting the wrong dots, but did a Jewish Non Profit Organization just purchase the diner?

 

The Mayerson Organization apperantly awards grant funds for jewish related projects.

 

https://www.mayersonfoundation.org/about/

 

The Mayerson's non-profit is located there but I am sure they also run their real estate company out of that office. 

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Does anyone have any information regarding the, "Main Street  OTR Gateway" project. 

 

I saw the OTR community council approved a motion regarding this project in their latest docket but I'm curious what exactly this gateway project entails?

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On 5/2/2019 at 7:28 PM, ryanlammi said:

^I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps it was bundled with additional properties. Even with the relative popularity of Main Street at the time, I have a hard time believing the diner sold for $325k in 1992 on its own.

 

I've never figured out how to see which properties were part of a multi-property sale on the Hamilton County Auditor site.  Plus, there is never a hint that there were multiple properties involved in a sale other than an extraordinary sales figure. 

 

The post reminded me of how everything between Music Hall and Vine St. was a total no-go zone during OTR's 1990s revival.  The Emery and Grammer's were the outposts of civility on Walnut, but there was absolutely nothing on Race or Elm and it's hard to argue that The Warehouse at 1313 Vine was civilized.  There was a brief period where a second club opened on the east side of Vine called Club Venus which is where The Mercer is now.  There were, however, several art galleries on Clay and Main was very lively.  East of Sycamore, chaos reigned.

 

The tables flipped around 2011 when Vine became the center of activity and since the streetcar opened it's undeniable that Race and Elm have surpassed Main in prominence.  Back in 1999 or 2000 nobody would have believed you if you said one day Main would one day rank in fourth or fifth place as prestigious and active OTR streets. 

 

 

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