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Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)

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9 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

The idea is that 3CDC and Model Group were going to buy the former Mercy Housing portfolio, renovate the apartments (keeping them affordable) and reactivating the retail spaces (which Mercy did not care about and kept vacant). However, after that was announced, Model Group sold their affordable housing division (Brickstone Properties) to a nonprofit called POAH. So I am not sure of the current status of that project. There doesn't appear to be anything happening with their Main Street properties.

 

In addition to the four buildings pictured above, they also own the building at 1338 Main Street and several on Woodward/Yukon right next to the newly renovated Ziegler Park, all of which appear to be completely vacant right now.

 

Sounds like these properties will take forever to reactivate. Ughhh.

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21 minutes ago, taestell said:

I would have loved for MEMI and 3CDC to partner and renovate the Emery, like they did with Music Hall. Unfortunately, with MEMI focusing their energy on the new riverfront concert venue, I don't think there is any chance that the Emery gets turned into a concert venue.

 

Yeah the city (and county) got it backwards.  PromoWest should have received The Banks project and MEMI is more suited to a place like The Emery.

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1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

This makes a lot of sense. They also bought the Court Street Diner in Athens and are rebranding it as Hang Over Easy. 

 

 

When I was at OU there was a band called The Well Hungovers.  

 

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1 hour ago, taestell said:

 

I would have loved for MEMI and 3CDC to partner and renovate the Emery, like they did with Music Hall. Unfortunately, with MEMI focusing their energy on the new riverfront concert venue, I don't think there is any chance that the Emery gets turned into a concert venue.

 

"The apartments are not turning a profit and the theater is beyond repair...".  Just the sort of crap university trustees claim when there is some larger movement afoot.  

 

Dating back to the campaign to build the Aronoff Center in the early 1990s, there has always been something not-quite-right with the Emery Theater.  It's always, mysteriously, not quite the right time.  Ever.  

 

 

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What's the big deal about turning the Emory into a theater anyway? We already have Memorial and Music Halls, the Shakespeare theater and the theater at the SCPA just a couple blocks away, plus there's the Woodward over on Main, the Ensemble on Vine, and of course the theaters at the Aronoff Center just a few blocks south and the Taft a little further south and east. Isn't the core pretty much good on concert venues and auditoriums? I get that it's a shame that the venue is currently sitting unused, and I'd love to see it turned into productive space, but I don't see the need to create yet another music venue at the Emery. 

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The big deal is that the Emery is one of four "acoustically pure" concert halls that was built in the late 1800s/early 1900s. It is on par with Carnegie Hall in New York. And one of the conditions of UC accepting the building is that they were supposed to use the revenue from the apartments to fund the restoration of the theater ... which they failed to do.

 

I agree with @jmecklenborg, something is off about this whole series of events. If they are not making a profit on the apartments ... in OTR, in 2019 ... they are doing something very wrong.

 

A couple of years ago, somebody was telling that when the Aronoff was first proposed, there was a somewhat sizeable group of people opposed to it, who thought that the Emery should have been renovated instead. And yet again, there is another new venue where the city, county, and MEMI are investing their money while the Emery sits vacant and deteriorating.

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So we should create another venue that we don't need, that won't have a host tenant, because....UC said they would renovate the theater 20, 30 years ago? It seems like nearly every theater I go to has some sort of claim about acoustic perfection, so that doesn't resonate with me, true as it may be. Hundreds of millions of dollars were just spent renovating Music Hall and Memorial Hall. Renovating another old theater, which honestly is hidden in plain sight and not an eye sore in the slightest, is a low priority for my OTR wish list. I'd rather see it renovated to office space so that the Salvation Army could move in from next door, and that whole block could be redeveloped as a true gateway to OTR and Main St.

Edited by edale
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29 minutes ago, edale said:

So we should create another venue that we don't need, that won't have a host tenant, because....UC said they would renovate the theater 20, 30 years ago? 

 

It's not that UC "said they would". It was a condition that they agreed to when they accepted the building as a gift. There was a nonprofit that was working to raise money and reopen the theatre, and UC kicked them out under mysterious circumstances.

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6 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

It's not that UC "said they would". It was a condition that they agreed to when they accepted the building as a gift. There was a nonprofit that was working to raise money and reopen the theatre, and UC kicked them out under mysterious circumstances.

 

Ok, so where is the legal challenge? If there was a contractual obligation to turn the Emery into a working theater, why not take it to the courts? If it was more of a good faith understanding, then there's not much we can do about it. I think turning the building into apartments at a time when there wasn't much going on in OTR was hugely beneficial, so it's not like UC has been a slumlord for the building.

 

Other than the history, and whatever past agreements were made, can you make a case for why the neighborhood and this part of the basin would need or benefit from another theater? 

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Just now, taestell said:

You're right, who cares about the history in OTR. Without the history, OTR could really be something awesome.

 

lol, ok cool.

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I agree with @edale in that we don't have any use for another theater downtown.  I'm sure the lack of demand is a big reason why this theater has been sitting unused for decades.  That building has really cool apartments and if someone wants to buy it and turn the theater into more apartments I'd be completely fine with it.  If someone wants to buy the building and renovate the theater though I'm also fine with that.  I don't think you're going to find someone who wants to spend the needed money to do that though. Having the theater sit unused for another 10 years doesn't do anything for OTR or the city.

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24 minutes ago, edale said:

 

Ok, so where is the legal challenge? If there was a contractual obligation to turn the Emery into a working theater, why not take it to the courts? If it was more of a good faith understanding, then there's not much we can do about it. I think turning the building into apartments at a time when there wasn't much going on in OTR was hugely beneficial, so it's not like UC has been a slumlord for the building.

 

Other than the history, and whatever past agreements were made, can you make a case for why the neighborhood and this part of the basin would need or benefit from another theater? 

 

Talk to anyone who knows anything about music and they will tell you an acoustically pure space is a treasure and anything but a theater is a waste of that treasure. I don't know enough about music to expand, but those (who do know about music/sound) I've spoken with drool and foam at the mouth when discussing the Emery Theater.

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The theater is awesome, but it also has tons of problems: it has no rear stage and no room to expand, there are structural issues, plumbing issues and most of all, not enough room to fit all the stuff that would be needed in a modern theater.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I really liked it when they played movies in there.  That worked.

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1 hour ago, taestell said:

 

It's not that UC "said they would". It was a condition that they agreed to when they accepted the building as a gift. There was a nonprofit that was working to raise money and reopen the theatre, and UC kicked them out under mysterious circumstances.

 

 

Blue bloods use the construction of arts facilities to the advantage of their broader long-term real estate plans.  Renovating an existing arts facility does not serve that end.  

 

 

 

 

 

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I think preserving it for the time being seems like the best course of action. What's the rush to do something with it? There are plenty of other spots around OTR and the Central Parkway corridor that could use development. Just sit on it and don't let it fall apart until someone with the money and the motivation to renovate comes along. Demolishing or retrofitting the theatre is definitely not the answer, though. 

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1 hour ago, edale said:

Other than the history, and whatever past agreements were made, can you make a case for why the neighborhood and this part of the basin would need or benefit from another theater?

 

The Emory is more than just another theatre. It’s near-perfect acoustics have been acknowledged by some of the most notable figures in early 20th music and theatre. It is true that it is one of four “acoustically pure” convert venues that were built in that time period, the others being in Chicago, Detroit, and New York. It also has unobstructed views from every seat, which is also another well-recognized feature. We should consider ourselves very lucky at the fact that this building still stands today, and that we even have such an important venue in our city in the first place, as Cincinnati was a much more prominent city when it was constructed. This theatre is extremely significant not only historically, but also to the disciplines of music, theatre, architecture, and engineering. I understand that there is a surplus of performance venues in the basin right now, but next to Music Hall, The Emery could be considered the most important concert hall in the city. I think it would be a mistake to not preserve this treasure that we have.

 

This is my first post on UO, but I’ve been reading threads for a long time now. Finally got the courage to share my thoughts on something. 

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13 minutes ago, jc22 said:

 

The Emory is more than just another theatre. It’s near-perfect acoustics have been acknowledged by some of the most notable figures in early 20th music and theatre. It is true that it is one of four “acoustically pure” convert venues that were built in that time period, the others being in Chicago, Detroit, and New York. It also has unobstructed views from every seat, which is also another well-recognized feature. We should consider ourselves very lucky at the fact that this building still stands today, and that we even have such an important venue in our city in the first place, as Cincinnati was a much more prominent city when it was constructed. This theatre is extremely significant not only historically, but also to the disciplines of music, theatre, architecture, and engineering. I understand that there is a surplus of performance venues in the basin right now, but next to Music Hall, The Emery could be considered the most important concert hall in the city. I think it would be a mistake to not preserve this treasure that we have.

 

This is my first post on UO, but I’ve been reading threads for a long time now. Finally got the courage to share my thoughts on something. 

Thanks for your perspective and your first post!

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UC seeks buyer for Over-the-Rhine apartment complex

 

The University of Cincinnati is searching for a buyer to take over an Over-the-Rhine apartment complex and theater it has owned since 1969.

 

The UC board of trustees on Tuesday voted to authorize Robert Ambach, senior vice president for administration and finance, to approve any agreement to sell the Emery Center at 1112 Walnut St. The building, which includes 58 apartments, 2,500 square feet of office space, Coffee Emporium and the historic Emery Theatre, is being marketed by CBRE. An asking price was not listed.

 

"The property doesn’t support our core mission – which centers on teaching, research and service. It’s perhaps better for those who operate downtown residential property to do so," UC spokeswoman M.B. Reilly told me in an email. "As a university, ownership of this property is not compatible with our educational role, and it’s not the first time the university has been gifted downtown property which it later sold in order to maintain a focus on our core mission."

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/04/23/uc-seeks-buyer-for-over-the-rhine-apartment.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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If you go to google and type in "near-perfect acoustics" and the name of any state, a theatre comes ups making that claim. 

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21 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

If you go to google and type in "near-perfect acoustics" and the name of any state, a theatre comes ups making that claim. 

 

Yeah I am skeptical of any acoustics-related claim.  The sound in any space varies wildly depending on how large a crowd is.  I wouldn't doubt that summer versus winter clothing significantly changes the sound.  

 

If you want to actually hear what fantastic natural acoustics sound like, listen to any of the classic Columbia Records recordings from the 50s-60s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBS_30th_Street_Studio

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Cincinnati.com: Teak is reopening, bringing Thai to a new neighborhood

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/dining/2019/04/26/teak-thai-restaurant-reopening-over-rhine-near-washington-park/3552799002/

 

 

Officially official. Teak was one of the best resturaunts in Mt Adams during it's heyday and will be easily one of the top resturaunts in otr if it can mimic it's early success

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All week I've been hearing about people from my work going down to Nashville to party on Broadway Street, and how Nashville is such a fantastic city. I've even seen that Nashville have begun offer Double Decker bus tours around Nashville, as if it's some grand city like NYC/Chicago/London. It's popularity has become nuts (and there's really not much to do in nashville if your not into drinking heavily and simultaneously listen to country music)...

 

Then I think to myself, Nashville is essentially defined by Broadway Street. People are going down in droves to party on Broadway St...Yet I'm over here thinking to myself OTR has essentially more bars (probably double) than all of Broadway Street. Maybe it's not as compact (most of Broadway st bars are in the span of a few blocks), but I'm still wondering why the hell people are so obsessed with Broadway St and Nashville when OTR is essentially offering the same thing minus the 3am last call, and live country music.

 

It makes me wonder if Broadway St, and it's night life can be a huge reason for Nashville tourism and growth...why can't we do the same for OTR and Cincinnati? 

Edited by troeros

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Is open container allowed on Broadway in Nashville? I really enjoyed walking around the French Quarter and other New Orleans neighborhoods while carrying around a drink. I’m not even a big drinker, but just being able to walk around with one felt nice and encouraged movement through the neighborhood rather than staying in one or two establishments. It seems like this might be a good idea for OTR, though it could also get kind of rowdy.  

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15 minutes ago, edale said:

Is open container allowed on Broadway in Nashville? I really enjoyed walking around the French Quarter and other New Orleans neighborhoods while carrying around a drink. I’m not even a big drinker, but just being able to walk around with one felt nice and encouraged movement through the neighborhood rather than staying in one or two establishments. It seems like this might be a good idea for OTR, though it could also get kind of rowdy.  

 

Broadway street is open container. But again, it's not this massive historic district or anything of that nature. It's a street that stretches a fee blocks long, lined up with the same type of honkey tonk live country music bar, copy/pasted throughout. 

 

I just don't get why literally everyone goes there for their bachelor/bachelorette parties. Also, this is Nashville's main night life spot. It's not like cincinnati where you have OTR, Covington, The Banks, Northside, etc where you can have a vast rotating entertainment neighborhood options.

 

It's literally a street, with the same bars, and that's it. And it is being crowned as the jewel of Nashville and the premier party destination in America and the #1 reason for Nashville's popularity and growth as a city. 

 

If we can leverage OTR the same way Nashville leverages Broadway St then Cincinnati can also have bachelorettes crying about the NFL draft ruing their wonderful planned party weekend. 

 

 

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Please for the love of all that's Holy don't wish bachelorette parties on to Vine street! We can do better than that! Love to all the ladies and all that but no, just no. 

 

 

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On 4/26/2019 at 5:53 PM, troeros said:

 

Broadway street is open container. But again, it's not this massive historic district or anything of that nature. It's a street that stretches a fee blocks long, lined up with the same type of honkey tonk live country music bar, copy/pasted throughout. 

 

I just don't get why literally everyone goes there for their bachelor/bachelorette parties. Also, this is Nashville's main night life spot. It's not like cincinnati where you have OTR, Covington, The Banks, Northside, etc where you can have a vast rotating entertainment neighborhood options.

 

It's literally a street, with the same bars, and that's it. And it is being crowned as the jewel of Nashville and the premier party destination in America and the #1 reason for Nashville's popularity and growth as a city. 

 

If we can leverage OTR the same way Nashville leverages Broadway St then Cincinnati can also have bachelorettes crying about the NFL draft ruing their wonderful planned party weekend. 

 

 

I can't stand Nashville but you're making some pretty false statements about it.  OTR may have more bars then Broadway (honestly I'm not sure it does) but the Broadway bars are way bigger then anything in OTR.  Pretty much all the bars there are multi level with rooftops.  They can fit a lot more people on Broadway then we can in OTR because of the size of the buildings.  Nashville also has plenty of other places for night life options then just Broadway.  Do you really think they don't have other neighborhoods that are popular to go out to?  The people that actually live in Nashville rarely go out on Broadway as that's where the tourists go. 

 

Personally I don't want OTR to become like Broadway in Nashville.  That place has no soul, no character.  Becoming the French Quarter of the Midwest is much more comparable given types of buildings that are in OTR.  

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On 4/26/2019 at 5:53 PM, troeros said:

 

Broadway street is open container. But again, it's not this massive historic district or anything of that nature. It's a street that stretches a fee blocks long, lined up with the same type of honkey tonk live country music bar, copy/pasted throughout. 

 

I just don't get why literally everyone goes there for their bachelor/bachelorette parties. Also, this is Nashville's main night life spot. It's not like cincinnati where you have OTR, Covington, The Banks, Northside, etc where you can have a vast rotating entertainment neighborhood options.

 

It's literally a street, with the same bars, and that's it. And it is being crowned as the jewel of Nashville and the premier party destination in America and the #1 reason for Nashville's popularity and growth as a city. 

 

If we can leverage OTR the same way Nashville leverages Broadway St then Cincinnati can also have bachelorettes crying about the NFL draft ruing their wonderful planned party weekend. 

 

 

Does anyone live on Broadway in Nashville? Based on my time there a few years ago I don't get that sense.  A huge visitor driven scene is not as compatible with a truly mixed use neighborhood like Over-the-Rhine. While increasing the numbers of visitors is key to sustained redevelopment, making Over-the-Rhine a "premier party destination" is not an appropriate vision for the neighborhood.

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I hate to break it to you, but OTR is already a huge bachelor/bachelorette party destination. My sister just had hers there this past weekend. I'm going to a bachelor party in OTR this summer for a friend who is from Cleveland and lives in Columbus. He has no connection to Cincinnati but wanted to do his bachelor party here because it is close for most of the attendees and he has heard from other people that they had fun on a bachelor party here. Basically go out any weekend on Main Street and you'll see women wearing the bride/bridesmaid sashes stumbling around. 

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Not on Broadway, but they definitely live on Second Ave., which is where the downtown nightlife was originally centered.  It all started with an Olde Spaghetti Factory and a Hooters back in the 90s...there was also the TNN Dance Ranch show that was filmed nightly in a bar whose name I can't remember on the northeast side of Second.   I believe that the Hooters s still going strong.

 

The Hard Rock Café that is still there was there on Second in the 90s, with its gift shop in the small row building at the corner of Second and Broadway.  Just south, and facing Broadway, was the Planet Hollywood.  Around 1998, a year or two after the tornado that damaged a bunch of the buildings, there was a NASCAR Café opposite the Planet Hollywood, but that didn't last long.  

 

The nightlife didn't shift to Broadway until around 2010, after the Schimerhorn Center and new Country Hall of Fame buildings started pulling tourists south of Broadway to the newly-coined "SoBro" area.  Previously, Broadway was the edge of the downtown, but it thereafter became the center.  The convention center and a bunch of towers sprouted in Sobro after about 2012.  

 

 

 

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I had my bachelor party in OTR last month after a Reds game.  We had a blast and in the process were able to change some perceptions on that so called "streetcar to nowhere".   Most of the (22) guys were from the Cincy/Indiana/Hamilton burbs, Indianapolis, and the Canton area.   Funny enough, the guys from the local burbs were the ones most pleasantly surprised with how the evening went.  I heard several times, from different guys how there is so much more to do in Cincy than the bachelor party they went to in Nashville a few months back. 

Some of the places I recall that we went after the rained out Reds game included Sam Adams Brewery, Rhinegeist, Taft, Arnolds, Holy Grail, Goodfellas, Gomez, just to name a few.   Some guys stayed in the Omni and others stayed at the new Holiday Inn on Broadway.

 

All in all, it was a great night aside from the monsoon rains

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15 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

I hate to break it to you, but OTR is already a huge bachelor/bachelorette party destination. My sister just had hers there this past weekend. I'm going to a bachelor party in OTR this summer for a friend who is from Cleveland and lives in Columbus. He has no connection to Cincinnati but wanted to do his bachelor party here because it is close for most of the attendees and he has heard from other people that they had fun on a bachelor party here. Basically go out any weekend on Main Street and you'll see women wearing the bride/bridesmaid sashes stumbling around. 

 

Which is great. That is a lot different than trying to make Over-the-Rhine "the premier party destination in America". I was responding to the comment that the streets of Over-the-Rhine should be packed with drunken partiers all the time to compete with "the #1 reason for Nashville's popularity and growth as a city".

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15 minutes ago, mcmicken said:

 

Which is great. That is a lot different than trying to make Over-the-Rhine "the premier party destination in America". I was responding to the comment that the streets of Over-the-Rhine should be packed with drunken partiers all the time to compete with "the #1 reason for Nashville's popularity and growth as a city".

 

If otr had the population density to support the amount of bars on weekdays (especially on main St) as much it does already on weekends then it would be. 

 

The French quarters, Broadway St...what do they have in similar? People go their to drink, party, unwind. 

 

French quarter might have more substance due to the history, size and architecture, but it is still largely where people go first and foremost to get drunk and party. 

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41 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

If otr had the population density to support the amount of bars on weekdays (especially on main St) as much it does already on weekends then it would be. 

 

I've recently noticed some of the Main Street bars have bigger crowds now during the week than they did  when I moved here two years ago. The first time I stepped foot in a Main Street bar on a Wednesday night I was blown away that any of these places could stay in business. There was no one at any of those bars during the week. Now you usually see a small after work crowd at a lot of the places. This will only continue to get better as more apartments/condos open around the basin. 

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9 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I've recently noticed some of the Main Street bars have bigger crowds now during the week than they did  when I moved here two years ago. The first time I stepped foot in a Main Street bar on a Wednesday night I was blown away that any of these places could stay in business. There was no one at any of those bars during the week. Now you usually see a small after work crowd at a lot of the places. This will only continue to get better as more apartments/condos open around the basin. 

 

The resurgence of the 1990s Main Street is coming full circle. Cue the rebirth of Have a Nice Day Cafe and Sycamore Gardens.

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2 hours ago, troeros said:

 

If otr had the population density to support the amount of bars on weekdays (especially on main St) as much it does already on weekends then it would be. 

 

The French quarters, Broadway St...what do they have in similar? People go their to drink, party, unwind. 

 

French quarter might have more substance due to the history, size and architecture, but it is still largely where people go first and foremost to get drunk and party. 

 

But do we want that? Over-the-Rhine has an opportunity to be a true mixed use neighborhood. An attempt to making it heavily focused on only one avenue, be it residential, office, retail, or entertainment threatens to make it a neighborhood devoid of vitality. A neighborhood focused only to "get drunk" in is not a sustainable nor desirable path.

 

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6 minutes ago, mcmicken said:

 

But do we want that? Over-the-Rhine has an opportunity to be a true mixed use neighborhood. An attempt to making it heavily focused on only one avenue, be it residential, office, retail, or entertainment threatens to make it a neighborhood devoid of vitality. A neighborhood focused only to "get drunk" in is not a sustainable nor desirable path.

 

 

It's been sustainable for new Orleans and Nashville for quite some time now. 

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What you are essentially asking for is for OTR to become what Main Street was in the the 1990s. Nothing but a party zone. No high end condos, no office space, no nice restaurants, just bars and bars and bars.

 

As someone who was drawn to this neighborhood based on the late 2000s version of the neighborhood, and invested here based on that vision, I absolutely do not want the neighborhood to devolve back into a party zone where drunken crowds trash the neighborhood every weekend and residents have to deal with cleaning up the mess. I understand that as a downtown neighborhood, we will always have more than our fair share of bars and will be a destination for people from other places to party, and I'm fine with that. But you have to have a balance between that and amenities that neighborhood residents want. If 3CDC's vision for OTR was Beale Street, I would have never invested here in the first place.

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

 

It's been sustainable for new Orleans and Nashville for quite some time now. 

 

The French Quarter gets a pretty bad rap, as does most of New Orleans, for its drinking above all else mentality and the associated crime, debauchery, and mess that it causes.  It's mostly been able to succeed despite its reputation, but there's definitely people who avoid it because of that.  Compare Charleston or Savannah to New Orleans in that respect. 

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