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Cincinnati: Over-the-Rhine: Development and News (non-3CDC)

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Kaze has a great patio and a great bar, but I agree about the hours needing to extend later. Some people are also turned off by Japanese because they think it's all sushi, while others come to Kaze expecting only a sushi place and don't find it. They need to be a little more clear on what their specialty is and focus on that. Having a little bit of everything is pretty un-Japanese, and I think their menu could use a little focus. That said I think they have some great food, and great cocktails and a great space, so I'm glad to see they aren't going away. 

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Echoing what others have said but they definitely need to make better use of the bar and patio.  The bar is one of the cooler ones in OTR imo but they always treated it as just a part of the restaurant.  

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So the ownership group of OTR Live/Tree House are opening their 3rd Club concept called "Copa OTR". It will be a night club/resturaunt in the day and be the first otr establishment to serve hookah. Should be announced relitavely soon. 

 

I'm happy that otr has found a niche with entertainment, and Cincinnati as a whole has become regarded as one of the better cities in the Midwest for great night life offerings.

 

That said, this will technically be OTR's 4th night club and south of liberty alone already has more than 40 bar establishments. 

 

At some point there will have to be a serious conversation on whether we want otr to be a functional family neighborhood, or if we want otr to be a mini Las Vegas. 

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Do you know where they're planning on opening their new location?  With their bad history I really hope it doesn't open near us.


"Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett 

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7 hours ago, troeros said:

So the ownership group of OTR Live/Tree House are opening their 3rd Club concept called "Copa OTR". It will be a night club/resturaunt in the day and be the first otr establishment to serve hookah. Should be announced relitavely soon. 

 

I'm happy that otr has found a niche with entertainment, and Cincinnati as a whole has become regarded as one of the better cities in the Midwest for great night life offerings.

 

That said, this will technically be OTR's 4th night club and south of liberty alone already has more than 40 bar establishments. 

 

At some point there will have to be a serious conversation on whether we want otr to be a functional family neighborhood, or if we want otr to be a mini Las Vegas. 

Lol or it can be both, just like it and Newport were to some degree in the distant past.

Edited by climberguy714

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14 hours ago, bfwissel said:

Do you know where they're planning on opening their new location?  With their bad history I really hope it doesn't open near us.

Its the building right next to Tree House. Used to be VLT Acadamy. Signs are already up in the windows.

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5 hours ago, cincydave8 said:

Its the building right next to Tree House. Used to be VLT Acadamy. Signs are already up in the windows.


Yup, I saw those signs and assumed "Copa" would be a nice, new Italian restaurant.

 

19 hours ago, bfwissel said:

With their bad history I really hope it doesn't open near us.

 

No such luck, seems like Treehouse is just expanding to increase their levels of disorderly conduct and noise pollution in the area. I can't stand that place...

 

There is no possible way they are abiding by noise ordinances. Anyone know how they get away with this constantly?

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20 hours ago, troeros said:

So the ownership group of OTR Live/Tree House are opening their 3rd Club concept called "Copa OTR". It will be a night club/resturaunt in the day and be the first otr establishment to serve hookah. Should be announced relitavely soon. 

 

I'm happy that otr has found a niche with entertainment, and Cincinnati as a whole has become regarded as one of the better cities in the Midwest for great night life offerings.

 

That said, this will technically be OTR's 4th night club and south of liberty alone already has more than 40 bar establishments. 

 

At some point there will have to be a serious conversation on whether we want otr to be a functional family neighborhood, or if we want otr to be a mini Las Vegas. 

 

It can definitely have many bar establishments and still be a functional family neighborhood. That is true of the Wash Square West and Old City neighborhoods in Philly. The both have a ton more bars and clubs than OTR and both are desirable neighborhoods with all types of residents. 

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https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/04/04/exclusive-nation-s-largest-african-american-owned.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

 

Nations Largest African American owned archeticture firm opening first Cincinnati office in otr. 

 

Great news, adding to the number of archeticture firms in otr already and more high paid day time office works to spend money at local otr establishment!

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This article claims they will keep the Covington office, but it seems a little odd to have two offices so close together. I guess as long as having the Covington address gets them in the door to UK's campus (and UK keeps building dorms) they will keep that location. 

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On 4/4/2019 at 12:41 PM, Largue said:


Yup, I saw those signs and assumed "Copa" would be a nice, new Italian restaurant.

 

 

No such luck, seems like Treehouse is just expanding to increase their levels of disorderly conduct and noise pollution in the area. I can't stand that place...

 

There is no possible way they are abiding by noise ordinances. Anyone know how they get away with this constantly?

 

From what I understand Copa will function as a resturaunt and a bar/night club at night. Similar concept to Mixx Ultralounge when it was around on main St. 

 

I agree that tree house and otr live aren't necessarily the best neighborhors for a multitude of reasons but that being said Julian Rodgers has found a lot of success recently with his recent ventures and it's good to see that he's still investing in new ventures in the otr neighborhood. 

 

Also, tree house and otr live for better or for worse bring ALOT of night life traffic, especially during the warmer months and is definitely economically good for the few late night food vendors around like Lucy blue/Goodfellas/boom box buns, etc

 

 

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That map of shootings to me shows that 3CDC and the city's work is not done in OTR. Vine street should be safe from Smale riverfront park all the way to the zoo and no tourist visiting the city should have to feel like they are going  through a dangerous area to see the best our city has to offer. Five of the shootings are around the intersection of Vine and McMicken, and if it were up to me the city would focus on that intersection along with Findlay playground and Grant park. Instead of shifting focus on downtown/Court street with a giant "mission accomplished" banner on OTR, I think 3CDC needs to finish what they started, starting with the old Kroger site and then moving North to Findlay Playground. 

 

This is a small thing, but I would also get rid of the dumb 1-way streets that make sure no one ever drives down them. Has switching Green street one way or Elder Street one way really reduced crime? To me the more inconvenient they make the street, the less likely it is that people will use the street, meaning less eyes on that street.

 

I feel bad for Moerlein, as they literally have shootings making a loop completely around their brewery.

image.thumb.png.423ad45b2a062d293bedaca60cac6198.png

Edited by ucgrady

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I would caution reading too much into a season or two worth of shootings. Shootings often result in more retaliatory shootings, so if the "wrong one" happens, it could spark many more. It doesn't necessarily mean that the neighborhood is backsliding or anything.

 

Also, note that most of the shootings are in places that haven't seen significant investment in recent years.

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Saying Vine should be safe all the way to the zoo is asking way too much.  It's a great long term goal but that's unrealistic right now.  As Ryan mentioned above the shootings are happening where development hasn't happened yet.  I'm glad the police are going to do more on their end but what will really move these criminals for good is more development.  The area around Findlay Market has some good things going on now but nothing has happened on Vine north of Liberty.  I'm not sure when that's going to begin but that street has a great stock of buildings ready to be rehabbed.  

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11 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

That map of shootings to me shows that 3CDC and the city's work is not done in OTR. Vine street should be safe from Smale riverfront park all the way to the zoo and no tourist visiting the city should have to feel like they are going  through a dangerous area to see the best our city has to offer. Five of the shootings are around the intersection of Vine and McMicken, and if it were up to me the city would focus on that intersection along with Findlay playground and Grant park. Instead of shifting focus on downtown/Court street with a giant "mission accomplished" banner on OTR, I think 3CDC needs to finish what they started, starting with the old Kroger site and then moving North to Findlay Playground. 

 

This is a small thing, but I would also get rid of the dumb 1-way streets that make sure no one ever drives down them. Has switching Green street one way or Elder Street one way really reduced crime? To me the more inconvenient they make the street, the less likely it is that people will use the street, meaning less eyes on that street.

 

I feel bad for Moerlein, as they literally have shootings making a loop completely around their brewery.

image.thumb.png.423ad45b2a062d293bedaca60cac6198.png

 

Driving through strectches of McMicken at night and you see the poverty. You see the prositutes, the open air drug trading. Portions of North of Liberty truly resemble a 3rd world country and it's truly scary how people can live like that. 

 

Im sort of surprised that these land lords still choose to house low income residents when they can rehab their building and have a luxury unit and create a much bigger pay day for their pockets. Surely they aren't making that much off these low income residents are they?

 

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15 hours ago, troeros said:

Im sort of surprised that these land lords still choose to house low income residents when they can rehab their building and have a luxury unit and create a much bigger pay day for their pockets. Surely they aren't making that much off these low income residents are they?

 

Why fix anything up for the chance at a big payday when you have money coming in for doing 0 work? Chances are they have a 3rd party handle the tenants and completely ignore the rest.

 

The city doesn't do enough to enforce property upkeep and why be the first in the area? One rehabbed apartment won't fix the crime issues.  3CDC, continued development of the Brewery Heritage Trail/District or a major development would need to go in there first.

 

 

Edited by 10albersa
Added a line

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3 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

 

Why fix anything up for the chance at a big payday when you have money coming in for doing 0 work? Chances are they have a 3rd party deal with the people and completely ignore the rest.

 

That's a good point. 

 

Another point is that alot of these criminals are repeat offenders and under disability for carrying a fire arm. Once they are released they aren't allowed to live near a school.... So how in the hell are these termites still living in north of liberty? It's illegal for them to live their!

Edited by troeros

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6 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Saying Vine should be safe all the way to the zoo is asking way too much.  It's a great long term goal but that's unrealistic right now.  As Ryan mentioned above the shootings are happening where development hasn't happened yet.  I'm glad the police are going to do more on their end but what will really move these criminals for good is more development.  The area around Findlay Market has some good things going on now but nothing has happened on Vine north of Liberty.  I'm not sure when that's going to begin but that street has a great stock of buildings ready to be rehabbed.  

I think saying "all of Downtown, OTR and the West End should be safe" is asking way too much, but focusing on one street that connects the riverfront/Banks/prefessional sports Stadiums, CBD, OTR's restaurant and retail heart, the regions largest University and the region's largest hospital doesn't seem like too much to ask. It seems like a necessity and it's not that far from being a reality. From the carousel to about 15th street is well invested, and then on top of the hill, Uptown is seeing lots of new investment. Really the stretch from 15th to the Vine street curve at Mulberry is the last stretch that needs major investment.

 

My point is that instead of focusing our limited resources back into the CBD the powers that be need to focus on the intersection of Vine and McMicken (and Findlay Playground which has already been closed) to fix the missing link. I also think that intersection and up to the Curve Cafe has the potential to be one of the most interesting and unique urban environments in the midwest. 

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I'm curious how the brewery heritage  trail will do. Much of the trail is connected to many points in North of liberty...I can't imagine how many folks will feel comfortable walking around north of liberty without a guided group.

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It's fine to walk around north of liberty during the day, at night is when you don't want to be there.  I doubt they are doing any of their tours at night.  But I'm sure they will help/continue to help lead the charge in making north of Liberty a safer place.  

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I'm just trying to comprehend the mentality and state of thinking of these criminals.

 

Forensic science, in addition to shot spotter and increased security cameras has made it MUCH more feasible to track these criminals down. The funny part is that alot of these criminals will have a beef with someone, shoot them on vine, and walk back to their apartment in OTR, and act as if nothing happened and then be shocked when they get arrested in 3 days time. I'm just genuinely curious how they can have this mentality of, "Oh I don't like this dude, let me murder him with my pistol, go home and call it a day!" This is mind boggling to me that these people feel like they can get away with shooting someone and not be caught in this day and age!

 

You would think that the normal train of thought would be, "I don't like this guy, but that's okay! Screw him. I'll go about my day, and not go to prison for 25 years because I actually enjoy my life and enjoy my day to day freedom!"

 

It's so backwards, and makes me want to understand more what goes behind the brain of a criminal who thinks that they are untouchable when it comes to getting caught? 

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Was recently in Cincinnati visiting a friend and was in OTR at night for the first time in awhile. One thing immediately tingled my constantly critiquing urban eye. 

 

LIGHTING!

 

Downtown/OTR/Pendelton/West End really need updated LED lighting. This includes ally's, which many have little, if any lighting. It's amazing what updated and more equitably illuminated spaces do for the urban environment. They decrease crime and make pedestrians feel safer. They're also a fairly cost effective upgrade. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Lucas_uLsac said:

Was recently in Cincinnati visiting a friend and was in OTR at night for the first time in awhile. One thing immediately tingled my constantly critiquing urban eye. 

 

LIGHTING!

 

Downtown/OTR/Pendelton/West End really need updated LED lighting. This includes ally's, which many have little, if any lighting. It's amazing what updated and more equitably illuminated spaces do for the urban environment. They decrease crime and make pedestrians feel safer. They're also a fairly cost effective upgrade. 

 

 

 

Yeah the lighting is really bad, especially on race and walnut. Does not create a safe atmosphere at all.

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Cincinnati.com: Shootings prompt police sweep of OTR and West End

 

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/crime/crime-and-courts/2019/04/08/rise-shootings-prompts-police-sweep-over-rhine-and-west-end/3403372002/

 

Interesting note in the article is that it says lack of territory has caused the shootings to become pushed to north of liberty and that the closing of the vine Street park late last year has caused the park at McMicken to essentially become the new hub for criminal and drug activity.

 

I think someone here predicted just that and goes to prove that you cant have these massive undeveloped parks and green space in urban locations without it becoming a centralized hub for criminals to use it as a major hub and gathering spot to do crime.

 

I say we chain fence  that park as well and make sure that there is no available open parks/large green spaces in undeveloped parts of otr and only allow Ziegler and Washington Park to be the main community parks for now for both north and south of liberty.

 

 

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Umm,  you know sound kind of crazy right?  I mean honestly this latest "wave" of shootings is nothing.  I mean lets think back to the days of triple murders south of liberty for some perspective on where we have come from.

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7 minutes ago, Traveler Joe said:

Umm,  you know sound kind of crazy right?  I mean honestly this latest "wave" of shootings is nothing.  I mean lets think back to the days of triple murders south of liberty for some perspective on where we have come from.

 

 

I'm not arguing that. But you realize this article has spread all over social media as well.

 

News like this hurts otr as a whole. From the resturaunts to tourism from out of towners. Sure, crime is isolated but articles like this one paints picture as if all of otr is dangerous and crime infested and to me it's concerning because I still feel while otr perception from the general public has drastically changed it is still at a fickle point where a few more news articles like this one can push a massive dent and reverse the course for the public at large.

Edited by troeros

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Troy I think what you are proposing is basically saying shutdown OTR where there is crime and turn it into a militarized area. That's impossible.

 

OTR even 5 or 6 years ago was much more dangerous let alone longer ago than that, it isn't even close. And these areas where there are shootings are not in areas that are frequented really for restaurants, etc. These are areas that some people live but a lot of the area is vacant too. It is most definitely troubling as it is anywhere in this city or country where there is shootings and violent crime and it really is tragic. But the fact is that you can't turn something around in 10 years which took 60 years to get to where it was, we aren't San Francisco or Seattle, etc.

 

You can make an argument that the city or 3CDC should focus all their efforts in these areas in regards to redevelopment in these areas but that just isn't feasible. I think something that would actually help if you want to push more private development North of Liberty is you finish the Liberty Street Diet as it should spur more development North of Libery and you push for redevelopment of Findlay Playground or parking ramps in the Findlay Market ramps to help spur more development North of Libery by Findlay that then can jog over to Vine Street then down again.

 

I think the policy 3CDC is taking in connecting Court Street and downtown to OTR is a good one as there are areas in between where people in the past at least have been mugged and robbed and which they need to clean up. They can only do so much at one time. Sure it's bad press but it honestly isn't a whole lot worse than what it was on a year to year basis and honestly it's much better than 5 years ago.

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

Cincinnati.com: Shootings prompt police sweep of OTR and West End

 

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/crime/crime-and-courts/2019/04/08/rise-shootings-prompts-police-sweep-over-rhine-and-west-end/3403372002/

 

Interesting note in the article is that it says lack of territory has caused the shootings to become pushed to north of liberty and that the closing of the vine Street park late last year has caused the park at McMicken to essentially become the new hub for criminal and drug activity.

 

I think someone here predicted just that and goes to prove that you cant have these massive undeveloped parks and green space in urban locations without it becoming a centralized hub for criminals to use it as a major hub and gathering spot to do crime.

 

I say we chain fence  that park as well and make sure that there is no available open parks/large green spaces in undeveloped parts of otr and only allow Ziegler and Washington Park to be the main community parks for now for both north and south of liberty.

 

 

 

I live on E Clifton Ave, and take my two kids (age 2 years and 3 months) to Grant Park on McMicken most evenings. The fact that you talk about "vine Street Park"  (I assume you're referring to Findlay Playground) and "the park at McMicken" (I'm assuming you're talking about Grant Park) reveals that you don't spend much time in the area. If you want to check the area out, I sincerely invite you. I'll meet you at Grant Park and introduce to some of the very nice people in the area. 

 

Yes, there are problems in the area with crime. Yes there are often people hanging out on the sidewalks, but the vast majority are doing no harm. Some of them no doubt are involved with dealing drugs, and yes, sometimes there is violence. I'm not excusing it or saying I'm satisfied with how things are, but your tone implies that it's impossible to live safely in the neighborhood, and that has not been my experience. By and large, I feel safe and I love the neighborhood, including the "rougher" parts north of Liberty. That is just my own perspective and I won't "argue" with somebody if they feel otherwise. Each is entitled to their perspective, I just would invite you (or others) to spend some time in the neighborhood before recommending "chain fence that park". 

 

I do want the City to continue to put pressure property owner of vacant buildings to sell or rehabilitate their properties, because by far the biggest problems are around vacant buildings where the owners do nothing to prevent illegal activity. 

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I mean in the article there is literally a map that shows where these shootings occurred.  If someone sees the headline and assumes all of OTR isn't safe then that's their own dumb problem.  That person likely has never and will never come to OTR anyways.  

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CPD is bringing in the FBI to help them fight this "crime wave"?

 

This couldn't possibly be related to the fact that City Council is currently talking about taking funding away from CPD's new District 5 HQ and using that money for Columbia Parkway, right?

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7 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

I mean in the article there is literally a map that shows where these shootings occurred.  If someone sees the headline and assumes all of OTR isn't safe then that's their own dumb problem.  That person likely has never and will never come to OTR anyways.  

 

I agree with that statement.

 

My argument is that for OTR to remain a, "hot real estate market" you need to provide a perception of safety. There are some homes reaching almost a million dollars on zillow, there are also quite a few homes hovering above 500-600k dollars in OTR that have been sitting on the market for maybe a year now, and constantly see price reductions without ever being sold.

 

If I was from a different city, and wanted to potentially relocate to cincinnati and shop for which neighborhood I wanted to live in I would google the name of the neighborhood. Right now, if you google "Over the Rhine" you will get 10 articles at the very top of the page stating that OTR is a, designated, "High Violent Crime Area" by the FBI and Cincinnati Police Department.

 

That would scare the hell out of me, and I would automatically search for the next neighborhood and skip OTR all together. This hurts the reputation of OTR plain and simple. This hurts the real estate market in OTR. This hurts development in OTR. And this ultimately trickles down to the restaurants, bars and shops in OTR over time. 

Edited by troeros

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Everyone needs to take a deep breath. Stop and think about how much crime has fallen in OTR over the past decade. Stop and think about how much the general public's perception of the neighborhood has increased over that same time period. People who come to this neighborhood regularly understand that the neighborhood is getting safer every year. They understand that there are occasional surges in crime, usually in parts of the neighborhood that they don't even go to, and that will decrease over time as there is more development in the neighborhood, more "eyes on the street" from people walking to and from businesses, etc. On the other hand, people who listen to WLW and watch TV news and gloat about OTR being declared a "high crime neighborhood" ... are the type of people who would never come to this neighborhood anyway. So I wouldn't worry about these few events "tarnishing" the reputation of the neighborhood, or OTR "backsliding" into what it used to be.

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Putting this in the press obviously isn't great for OTR pr but I think it's worth it.  This is getting the neighborhood on their side whereas random mass arrests would not.  This is also telling these criminals that cops are coming for you and here is where they're going to be.  Obviously all won't listen but some will.  The ones who listen will move out of OTR and West End.  The dumbest ones will end up getting arrested around these areas.  In the end in will lead to a safer and better OTR and West End.  

 

I also don't think this bad press will do anything to the already nice parts of southern OTR.  That area south of 15th is well past the point where bad press can hurt it.  The area just south of Liberty and north of Liberty obviously still needs a lot of work but we're on our way.  Just think of what OTR looked like 5-10 years ago and how much it's changed.  It will change that much or more in the next 5-10 years.  

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There were a ton of articles about OTR being the most violent neighborhood in the country just before development really started picking up. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

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Roadtrippers team is adding a resturaunt/bar at their HQ at 131 E McMicken Ave. From what I understand it will be a Beer Garden plus resturaunt. 

 

Should be interesting how this does as it will be the first eating/drinking establishment not near Findley market in North of Liberty. 

 

It will also be interesting to see if the increased night activity will decrease the current shootings that have been zoned on that particular street. 

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Skeleton Root on McMicken has somewhat had that affect, all it takes is a few "can I speak to your manager" type suburban moms to witness elicit activities and the cops are firmly put on notice...

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4 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Skeleton Root on McMicken has somewhat had that affect, all it takes is a few "can I speak to your manager" type suburban moms to witness elicit activities and the cops are firmly put on notice...

I love your description.  I know the type.

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

Roadtrippers team is adding a resturaunt/bar at their HQ at 131 E McMicken Ave. From what I understand it will be a Beer Garden plus resturaunt. 

 

Should be interesting how this does as it will be the first eating/drinking establishment not near Findley market in North of Liberty. 

 

It will also be interesting to see if the increased night activity will decrease the current shootings that have been zoned on that particular street. 

 

No restaurant. It will be in the outdoor space plus the small 1 story garage. Low key is the vibe they are going for, no live music for example.

 

Moerlein Malthouse is already north of Liberty.

 

No, occupied development will decrease the problems. NorthCrown will be developing 5 vacant buildings in the blocks over the next 2 years (1614 Walnut, 1618 Walnut, 112 Corwine, 64 E McMicken, 100 E McMicken) plus an infill project on top of 1630 Walnut, there is a new infill project is coming to 118 E McMicken, and my 3 buildings (108-114 E McMicken) that will start renovation this year. That doesn't include the renovations at 161 E McMicken and 1607 Main/165-169 E McMicken that are ongoing plus 154 and 158 E McMicken that just gone done.

 

Edited by mcmicken
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On 4/9/2019 at 8:54 PM, taestell said:

Everyone needs to take a deep breath. Stop and think about how much crime has fallen in OTR over the past decade. Stop and think about how much the general public's perception of the neighborhood has increased over that same time period. People who come to this neighborhood regularly understand that the neighborhood is getting safer every year. They understand that there are occasional surges in crime, usually in parts of the neighborhood that they don't even go to, and that will decrease over time as there is more development in the neighborhood, more "eyes on the street" from people walking to and from businesses, etc. On the other hand, people who listen to WLW and watch TV news and gloat about OTR being declared a "high crime neighborhood" ... are the type of people who would never come to this neighborhood anyway. So I wouldn't worry about these few events "tarnishing" the reputation of the neighborhood, or OTR "backsliding" into what it used to be.

 

This. Plus the current wave of bad press is nothing compared to what we used to have to deal with.

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