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Sugar n' Spice adding second location in iconic OTR space

 

Beloved Paddock Hills restaurant Sugar n' Spice is expanding to a second location with plans to open in an iconic Over-the-Rhine space later this year.

Sugar n' Spice, which has built a cult following over nearly 80 years of business at 4381 Reading Road, will open its second location in the former Joe's Diner on Sycamore space at 1203 Sycamore St. in Over-the-Rhine. The goal is to open in time for the winter holidays.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/06/04/exclusive-sugar-n-spice-adding-second-location-in.html?utm_content=1559678722&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

 

Edited by tonyt3524
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Amazon could announce they were going to put ten thousand high-paying tech jobs downtown and this would still be the best news of the week. I hope it's maximally garish. 

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6 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said:

Sugar n' Spice adding second location in iconic OTR space

 

Beloved Paddock Hills restaurant Sugar n' Spice is expanding to a second location with plans to open in an iconic Over-the-Rhine space later this year.

Sugar n' Spice, which has built a cult following over nearly 80 years of business at 4381 Reading Road, will open its second location in the former Joe's Diner on Sycamore space at 1203 Sycamore St. in Over-the-Rhine. The goal is to open in time for the winter holidays.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/06/04/exclusive-sugar-n-spice-adding-second-location-in.html?utm_content=1559678722&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

 

 

 

How much money have investors lost at that corner over the past 35 years?

 

 

 

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It's about time! Now if 1113 Sycamore can get out of the ground, Sycamore may actually start becoming a more interesting street!


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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34 minutes ago, Pdrome513 said:

Amazon could announce they were going to put ten thousand high-paying tech jobs downtown and this would still be the best news of the week. I hope it's maximally garish. 

 

Yeah considering Amazon treats their white-collar workers just as bad as their blue-collar ones and keeps them on-site and mostly unable to spend money in the neighborhood due to the long hours and in-sourced food, one restaurant probably is better. Ask people around Seattle how little Amazon has done for the street life of its neighborhoods. They are not like say, the insurance companies that make Hartford Connecticut so vibrant and help local business owners also make a lot of money.

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Wow couldn't ask for a better restaurant to take that diner space.  I've been waiting years for someone smart to open up there and now it's going to be the second location for one of the better breakfast locations in the city.  With the owner being pretty young I don't think it will take very long for them to figure out opening late on the weekends would be a huge money maker.  

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Five blocks of Sycamore already has Ziegle PArk, Ziegler Pool, Alumni Lofts 142 Units, a 500 car underground garage, Nicola's, The Peaslee Center, my new building and the proposed 1113 project. I'm not sure where there is more going on anywhere.

 

As for nighttime hours at the Diner, it will never happen.

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18 minutes ago, 1400 Sycamore said:

As for nighttime hours at the Diner, it will never happen.

 

why?

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15 hours ago, 1400 Sycamore said:

Five blocks of Sycamore already has Ziegle PArk, Ziegler Pool, Alumni Lofts 142 Units, a 500 car underground garage, Nicola's, The Peaslee Center, my new building and the proposed 1113 project. I'm not sure where there is more going on anywhere.

 

As for nighttime hours at the Diner, it will never happen.

what is the 1113 project?

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Sugar n spice is an institution. I've always complained about the lack of day time activity around that strectch of main... With the added new construction development across the street and injecting a popular day time breakfast option can boost the pedestrian life on that block. 

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I love this area of downtown.  It's quieter/less vehicle traffic than OTR-proper, but has similar buildings, all kinds of cool businesses, and a strong arts culture. It feels more European than OTR does right now.  That may be because it is more filled out though (given its smaller size).

Edited by 10albersa

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Maybe its just me, but I feel like this has been a real, "lull" for OTR thus far this year.

 

Normally when you drive around OTR you see bustling frenzy of new infill, and rehabs. Things feel very slow so far this year for whatever reason. 

 

Usually 3cdc has multiple projects going on around OTR, and so far are only they are only working on the rehab of the Columbia building. I know they are pulling away from OTR, but it doesn't really seem like any developer is keen to pick up where 3cdc left off...

 

Just scrolling the past few past months of HCB packets and there is hardly any infill projects going on in OTR. Usually, you'll see some stuff here and there proposed, whether it be a major project or a single lot infill project. This year nada.

 

Not sure if this is concerning or not...Is the otr market cooling off? It just seems like for the past few years you would get a steady stream of new infill projects, both big and small and thus far it's been eerily quiet compared to the subsequent years. 

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

Maybe its just me, but I feel like this has been a real, "lull" for OTR thus far this year.

 

Normally when you drive around OTR you see bustling frenzy of new infill, and rehabs. Things feel very slow so far this year for whatever reason. 

 

Usually 3cdc has multiple projects going on around OTR, and so far are only they are only working on the rehab of the Columbia building. I know they are pulling away from OTR, but it doesn't really seem like any developer is keen to pick up where 3cdc left off...

 

Just scrolling the past few past months of HCB packets and there is hardly any infill projects going on in OTR. Usually, you'll see some stuff here and there proposed, whether it be a major project or a single lot infill project. This year nada.

 

Not sure if this is concerning or not...Is the otr market cooling off? It just seems like for the past few years you would get a steady stream of new infill projects, both big and small and thus far it's been eerily quiet compared to the subsequent years. 

"Normally". 10 years ago we would have killed for the amount of renovation happening in Over-the-Rhine. It's fine, just a lull, though the nature of increased property costs and construction cost increases probably are slowing things a bit.

 

3CDC has active projects other than the Columbia, there are also some big 3CDC projects in the works still, as well as a number of small developers including infill. Model is on phase 3 of the Market Square but that is almost all north of Findlay so no one sees it. East McMicken has a number of projects in pre-development that will pop in the next year.There are a couple of infill projects on Vine south of Liberty in the pipeline and at least one large project on Vine north of Liberty permitted and ready to start (1725 Vine). If either of the monster projects on Sycamore or Freeport Row kick off there will be ton of activity.

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I'm glad it is balancing out, CBD and Findlay Market area are starting to get hot and fill out.  3CDC will complete the Kroger OTR redevelopment and finish out their south of Liberty landbank and leave the rest south of Liberty to smaller fish. Lots of residential coming online in CBD, which will help drive sustainable growth throughout the basin.

Edited by 10albersa

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Bretzel has closed it's doors. They said that the new parking restrictions have forced them to become unprofitable and close their business.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/06/14/exclusive-soft-pretzel-bakery-to-close-otr-parking.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

 

This marks the 3rd OTR Business (The Anchor, The Rook, and now Bretzel) to close in just the past 5 months. Weird trend...

 

 

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13 hours ago, mcmicken said:

"Normally". 10 years ago we would have killed for the amount of renovation happening in Over-the-Rhine. It's fine, just a lull, though the nature of increased property costs and construction cost increases probably are slowing things a bit.

 

3CDC has active projects other than the Columbia, there are also some big 3CDC projects in the works still, as well as a number of small developers including infill. Model is on phase 3 of the Market Square but that is almost all north of Findlay so no one sees it. East McMicken has a number of projects in pre-development that will pop in the next year.There are a couple of infill projects on Vine south of Liberty in the pipeline and at least one large project on Vine north of Liberty permitted and ready to start (1725 Vine). If either of the monster projects on Sycamore or Freeport Row kick off there will be ton of activity.

Increased construction costs have put a serious damper on my project.  Costs have nearly doubled in 2 years!

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Also, the news outlets are now running front news headlines for otr robberies. 

 

2 men shot yesterday near w McMicken during a mugging , and a women yesterday walking down elm St was robbed at gunpoint by 2 men. 

 

Murders, Muggings, Businesses closing, slow lull development year. Yikes man.

 

Otr was having this really great momentum..crime felt lower, less businesses closing year over year, infill and rehab left and right... everything just feels so off with otr this year.

 

 

Edited by troeros

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There's a lot of businesses and competition now in OTR, and there hasn't been enough of a downtown population increase to keep up with supply.  The new CBD residential projects being built will help, but that's not enough either.  I'm don't think the closings say anything more than there's a lot of competition, and the crime will go away as development moves to McMicken. 

 

I think the population needs to double downtown for OTR to sustainably support a built-out mixed-use environment.  There's just been more commercial development than residential so far. It isn't dense enough. North of Liberty, Court area of CBD, and Pendleton need more housing.

Edited by 10albersa

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19 minutes ago, troeros said:

Also, the news outlets are now running front news headlines for otr robberies. 

 

2 men shot yesterday near w McMicken during a mugging , and a women yesterday walking down elm St was robbed at gunpoint by 2 men. 

 

Murders, Muggings, Businesses closing, slow lull development year. Yikes man.

 

Otr was having this really great momentum..crime felt lower, less businesses closing year over year, infill and rehab left and right... everything just feels so off with otr this year.

 

 

You could say that with OTR I believe it was last year or the year before when there were multiple shootings within a couple weeks. The rook closing sucks but it seems it was more to do with ownership, not the amount of customers, I honestly assumed bretzel would close eventually due to new competition in the area with Brown Bear Bakery. It does seem like a weird trend but I am sure OTR will be just fine.

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Just looking at the new liquor licenses issued in OTR in this calendar year

 

Holiday Spirits

Social OTR

Platform

Urban Axes

Wodka Bar

Oddfellows/Mikeys

Zundo

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11 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

Just looking at the new liquor licenses issued in OTR in this calendar year

 

Holiday Spirits

Social OTR

Platform

Urban Axes

Wodka Bar

Oddfellows/Mikeys

Zundo

 

Yea, the new businesses and positive developments vastly outweigh the negative. Add in new developments in the CBD and Pendleton and I don't see any reason to believe that we're heading anywhere but the right direction. 

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10 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

Just looking at the new liquor licenses issued in OTR in this calendar year

 

Holiday Spirits

Social OTR

Platform

Urban Axes

Wodka Bar

Oddfellows/Mikeys

Zundo

 

I've been following otr development for a good 5 years now. 

 

My notes are:

 

3cdc is struggling to some extent with leasing for new tenant. 

 

The new construction corner facing Tafts and houses poke hut, was finished early this January and none of the new development commercial spaces have been rented out. 

 

Even when a new business leaves, 3cdc typically takes almost 6 months to over a year to find a replacement. 

 

I've heard multiple negative rumors about 3cdc and have always been told that if you plan to open a business avoid 3cdc and negotiate with urban sites or the model group. 

 

If the rumors are true then it's a bit unfortunate that 3cdc owns so many of the ground floor commercial space it otr.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/27/2017 at 5:38 AM, troeros said:

So I'm curious what you guys think...But does anyone else feel as if things have been slowing down development wise in OTR?

 

For instance, the Business Courier wrote an article about some of the historic tax credit projects, and no 3cdc project had won.

 

Even during the past few months of the HCB. Really nothing, to very little in OTR (in terms of new rehabs, or new infill development), or around the city in general.

 

I don't know if it's just that winter is a, "lull" period, or if development is just indeed slowing down in OTR......I guess it's just that OTR seemed like a focal point on this subsection, and it's always felt like something new was going in OTR. But lately it just feels, "dead". What do you guys think?


You said the same thing 18 months ago.

When you look at something too closely it can feel like things are slower than before. The past all seems to have happened so fast. As others have pointed out, there is still a lot happening around Findlay Market especially.

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Downtown and OTR rank first and second among all neighborhoods in the city for building permits this year. Here are the numbers by year:

 

2019 (so far)

 

Downtown 122

OTR 104

Hyde Park 79

Oakley 62

Evanston 55

Northside 49

Madisonville 49

East Price Hill 47

Westwood 40 

Mt. Auburn 40

 

2018

 

Downtown 243

Hyde Park 162

OTR 160

Northside 141

Oakley 116

Evanston 108

Madisonville 98

Avondale 90

CUF 84

Westwood 83

 

2017

 

OTR 284

Downtown 236

Hyde Park 183

Northside 157

Oakley 120

Evanston 104

Mt. Auburn 94

Westwood 92

Walnut Hills 87

Avondale 82

 

 

 

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Also, I think it's only natural for things to switch to a more normalized pace over time. You can't keep sustaining massive growth. As the low hanging fruit is picked, developers have to work harder to see profitable projects. These take more time and are often more difficult projects. Pretty much every land owner in OTR knows what they have now, so even some of the low-hanging fruit has a higher barrier for entry than it did 4 years ago when some were still selling buildings for cheap.

And you have to keep in mind that there may be outlier years where for whatever reason (tax incentives, economic conditions, etc) a bunch of projects get moving at once. I would predict any time there is a lag in development, the following year will typically outpace what would be expected because people are still working out projects.

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The Sycamore or Freeport Row projects will be huge for the area if they can ever get started.  There just aren't many areas in OTR/Pendleton big enough to support large residential projects like this.  The Columbia building that 3CDC is renovating now is a big space but it will only be 36 units.  An influx of of 100+ residential units would really add more foot traffic to the area.  

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20 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

The Sycamore or Freeport Row projects will be huge for the area if they can ever get started.  There just aren't many areas in OTR/Pendleton big enough to support large residential projects like this.  The Columbia building that 3CDC is renovating now is a big space but it will only be 36 units.  An influx of of 100+ residential units would really add more foot traffic to the area.  

 

Speaking of Freeport Row that project has become so bizarre.

 

They announce last year they would start in the fall...biz journal this spring said they will start shortly..

 

So far only dirt has been kicked around. 

 

Are the developers having financing issues? Its just stalled without a peep.

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Land and buildings are now horrendously expensive in OTR.  A pair of vacant lots on Wade, just west of Elm, are listed for $175k & $225k.  This means you need to be building a million dollar home to justify those land costs.  

 

The high prices have pushed a lot of small-time people over into the West End and up to Camp Washington.  Prices have accelerated rapidly all the way over toward Baymiller and Colerain.  

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^I wouldn't worry too much about OTR, to my eyes it is still booming, I go to Findlay Market often and that area has changed dramatically and will continue to do so. I think a structured garage is in order around the Findlay Market area then it will really take off even quicker, especially if they fix up the Findlay Park area then that will jog development from Findlay Market over to Vine Street then down connecting from there.

 

I also think that the Liberty Street Project will have a really positive impact of moving more development North of Liberty.

 

Next, there are some big projects going on downtown proper which we have alluded to in other threads. To me, this is the most important part as 3CDC shifts their main focus down that way. We will get more population, more hotels, etc. All this adds to demand for OTR. Maybe it is in a bit of a lull but it isn't like it is in bad shape and people have closed up shop.

 

Lastly, there is crime in OTR but holy cow, I remember when I moved in 2013 to Walnut Street area there was muggings all the time. Literally all the time. I got jumped, my roommate got jumped, two of my neighbors got jumped, I talked to people of a friend who got knifed, there was high speed chases, gun shots, etc. It really has turned a huge corner even since 2013. 3CDC is working on the projects North and on the corner of 15th Street in Vine and eventually Kroger space, all this shows the momentum is continuing to go and 3CDC will always be pushing even if there is a lull with other developers. Someone mentioned that the construction costs have made their own project unfeasible, but the fact of the matter is that all these things end up working out one way or another with the economy, prices, etc. So if there is a lull now and for a couple years, after that it will boom again. I wouldn't worry about it!

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30 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Land and buildings are now horrendously expensive in OTR.  A pair of vacant lots on Wade, just west of Elm, are listed for $175k & $225k.  This means you need to be building a million dollar home to justify those land costs.  

 

The high prices have pushed a lot of small-time people over into the West End and up to Camp Washington.  Prices have accelerated rapidly all the way over toward Baymiller and Colerain.  

 

This cute little home popped up on Redfin yesterday. Excited to see more development happening in Camp Washington.

 

https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cincinnati/3069-Henshaw-Ave-45225/home/76074217

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https://local12.com/news/local/series-of-burglaries-happened-in-over-the-rhine

 

I've noticed 2 trends lately:

 

1) News outlets are now covering crime about otr that would normally not be reported (burgarlies, Muggings, etc). It seems like covering murders and shots wasn't enough clicks so they are adding everything and anything crime related about otr front news.

 

2) Media outlets will say "Over the Rhine" when it's related to crime activity. They will use the abbreviation "OTR" when they are making a headline about a trendy new bar/resturaunt/development, etc.

 

Soon we will have people think otr and over the Rhine are 2 different places. Clever media tricks.

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6 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

This cute little home popped up on Redfin yesterday. Excited to see more development happening in Camp Washington.

 

https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cincinnati/3069-Henshaw-Ave-45225/home/76074217

 

That thing is already under contract.  Unfortunately these sorts of homes are targeted by landlords and Airbnb investors so I'm not sure that we're ever going to see significant owner-occupation in Camp Washington.  

 

I do expect that we'll start to see flipping in South Cumminsville shortly as it's the only place left in the basin that hasn't been touched.  It has no commercial strip and downright bad access to major roads but at some point people aren't going to pay Northside or Downtown prices.  

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

Also, I think it's only natural for things to switch to a more normalized pace over time. You can't keep sustaining massive growth. As the low hanging fruit is picked, developers have to work harder to see profitable projects. These take more time and are often more difficult projects. Pretty much every land owner in OTR knows what they have now, so even some of the low-hanging fruit has a higher barrier for entry than it did 4 years ago when some were still selling buildings for cheap.

And you have to keep in mind that there may be outlier years where for whatever reason (tax incentives, economic conditions, etc) a bunch of projects get moving at once. I would predict any time there is a lag in development, the following year will typically outpace what would be expected because people are still working out projects.

 My gut says that the region is simply not growing fast enough to maintain the early bursts of construction activity we saw in OTR. So yes, it's simply going to normalize to the rather meager population gains we are seeing in the metro.  

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14 hours ago, TheCOV said:

 My gut says that the region is simply not growing fast enough to maintain the early bursts of construction activity we saw in OTR. So yes, it's simply going to normalize to the rather meager population gains we are seeing in the metro.  

 

This is a really important thing to keep in mind. With a city that's only growing 1% or 2% per year population-wise, there's only so much new development that can be sustained. And out of that small number of people moving to the city, an even smaller number are going to want to live in downtown/OTR and the majority are going to want a traditional single family home. That explains the growth in Hyde Park, Oakley, and Northside that has nearly caught up to downtown/OTR. There just aren't that many people who are going to decide to move from Milford or West Chester or Colerain Township to the urban core. So without something dramatically changing (perhaps the new Fortune 500 HQ that the Josephs keep promising!) development is going to continue at about this pace.

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55 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

This is a really important thing to keep in mind. With a city that's only growing 1% or 2% per year population-wise, there's only so much new development that can be sustained. And out of that small number of people moving to the city, an even smaller number are going to want to live in downtown/OTR and the majority are going to want a traditional single family home. That explains the growth in Hyde Park, Oakley, and Northside that has nearly caught up to downtown/OTR. There just aren't that many people who are going to decide to move from Milford or West Chester or Colerain Township to the urban core. So without something dramatically changing (perhaps the new Fortune 500 HQ that the Josephs keep promising!) development is going to continue at about this pace.

 

I mean are we talking about the 40 year old West Chester couple? Or the 23 year old UC grad student who goes to downtown and otr every weekend to eat and party and hang out?

 

My generation utterly hates the suburbs. 

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Hating the suburbs isn't the same thing as moving downtown. The growth of Northside/Oakley/Pleasant Ridge is partially due to people who want to be close (a 10 to 20 minute drive or Uber ride) to downtown but still have a single family home in an affordable neighborhood.

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3 hours ago, taestell said:

That explains the growth in Hyde Park, Oakley, and Northside that has nearly caught up to downtown/OTR.

 

Northside maybe to some extent, but the zoning in Hyde Park and Oakley is so tight that building permits are mostly being issued for remodels or tear-downs and rebuilds.  Permits aren't a good indicator of growth, but maybe for vibrance or desirability.  

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There is a big difference between the post-2010 housing recovery and everything before it.  The banks aren't funding the same sort of highly-leveraged condo and suburban subdivision developments that they had been since WWII.  Developers are forced to put much more of their own money into these things than they had to 10+ years ago, which is why far fewer of them are happening.  Like half as many as in 2007-08:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST

 

That's why all of these neighborhoods across the country are coming back -- because there isn't as much new product + more and more people can afford to move out of mom's basement.

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Rookwood Pottery has closed it's Jackson Street store. Will move into a new store in Kenwood mall. 

 

States that the street parking situation as a reason for the move. ..

 

This makes the 4th Business to leave OTR in the last 6 months. 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, troeros said:

Rookwood Pottery has closed it's Jackson Street store. Will move into a new store in Kenwood mall. 

 

 

Does anyone know why the upper floors of that building have never been occupied?  It does not appear that any work has been performed on the apartments since Jim Tarbell sold the building around 2011.  

 

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On 6/15/2019 at 3:35 PM, taestell said:

That explains the growth in Hyde Park, Oakley, and Northside that has nearly caught up to downtown/OTR. There just aren't that many people who are going to decide to move from Milford or West Chester or Colerain Township to the urban core. So without something dramatically changing (perhaps the new Fortune 500 HQ that the Josephs keep promising!) development is going to continue at about this pace.

 

Honestly I think the only restraint on urban core growth is supply right now. We wanted to buy downtown or in OTR but price and lack of supply limited us. So we bought a house that we love in Northside, but we had to give up walking to work--which is a bummer for us. On our block there are a few other families that would've been closer to downtown if possible. There's also a good mix of folks from out-of-state and folks who grew up in the Cincy suburbs. I do think there are a lot more folks in West Chester, Milford, etc. who are looking to make the move closer and would choose downtown/OTR but will probably end up in Northside, Walnut, Hills, Evanston, etc. 

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39 minutes ago, troeros said:

Rookwood Pottery has closed it's Jackson Street store. Will move into a new store in Kenwood mall. 

 

States that the street parking situation as a reason for the move. ..

 

This makes the 4th Business to leave OTR in the last 6 months. 

 

 

 

Rookwood still has a shop (and a sizable parking lot) at their production building near Findlay Market. I always thought the other store was overkill because their showroom is interesting and has a much more unique feel to it - you walk by the raw materials, kilns, etc.

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1 minute ago, Ram23 said:

 

Rookwood still has a shop (and a sizable parking lot) at their production building near Findlay Market. I always thought the other store was overkill because their showroom is interesting and has a much more unique feel to it - you walk by the raw materials, kilns, etc.

 

Yes... But multiple Businesses are starting to echo similar statements about the parking situation hurting their businesses. 

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If your business closed due to a parking situation that only changed a few months ago then you didn't have a very good business, and it was likely going to fail anyways.  People just like using this parking change as an excuse now when it was actually just their bad business that failed.  Sorry but I don't feel sorry for you and your straw man excuse. 

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27 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

If your business closed due to a parking situation that only changed a few months ago then you didn't have a very good business, and it was likely going to fail anyways.  People just like using this parking change as an excuse now when it was actually just their bad business that failed.  Sorry but I don't feel sorry for you and your straw man excuse. 

 

Right. I would probably attribute rising rent costs more likely for otr Businesses in recent years for commercial tenants rather than the parking situation. 

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