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KJP

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Just make any tuition and student loan payments tax free so you get a bigger refund at the end of the year if you pay off some of your loans. Wouldn't that do the exact same thing without risking individuals raiding their 401ks to go for degrees? Also, I agree that pretty much no one would utilize Rand Paul's idea.

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48 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

fwiw - and as a reminder to my liberal pals on here that we actually fundamentally disagree on most policy positions - Rand Paul actually proposed an innovative solution to student debt, as a temporary supplement, not a complete remedy. 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/05/what-to-know-about-rand-pauls-helper-act-for-student-loan-repayment.html

 

This is a laughably dumb policy proposal.  "Silly rubes, saving for retirement...you should put that money towards paying off your loans!" As if the issue is people over-saving for retirement and not paying off their loans.  The party that wants to cut Social Security wants Gen Xers and Millennials to raid their 401ks and IRAs - likely their only source of income in retirement - to pay off student loans.  25% of adults have no retirement savings and 22% have less than $5,000 in their retirement accounts.  The people who have significant funds in their 401ks and IRAs are not the ones struggling to pay off their student loans (and probably don't even have any student loan debt).

 

If we're not going to touch student loan forgiveness or tuition-free public college, how about capping the interest rates that lenders can charge on these loans?

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

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50 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

fwiw - and as a reminder to my liberal pals on here that we actually fundamentally disagree on most policy positions 

 

I don't think you and I disagree on as much as you might think. I recall listing some of my proposed solutions to certain problems and remember that you agreed with about 90% of them. So not all liberals want to defer our responsibilities on to others... 😉

 

Anyway, I came to post this clever little acronym....

 


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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29 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

This is a laughably dumb policy proposal.  "Silly rubes, saving for retirement...you should put that money towards paying off your loans!" As if the issue is people over-saving for retirement and not paying off their loans.  The party that wants to cut Social Security wants Gen Xers and Millennials to raid their 401ks and IRAs - likely their only source of income in retirement - to pay off student loans.  25% of adults have no retirement savings and 22% have less than $5,000 in their retirement accounts.  The people who have significant funds in their 401ks and IRAs are not the ones struggling to pay off their student loans (and probably don't even have any student loan debt).

 

If we're not going to touch student loan forgiveness or tuition-free public college, how about capping the interest rates that lenders can charge on these loans?

 

See @DarkandStormy this is where I lose you on a lot of stuff... 

 

"Laughably dumb" has yet to be tried. I have approximately $100k in loans left and I put money into my 401k every paycheck. I cut back on the lifestyle I lead, sure, and I personally would be very interested in this program. But to call it laughably dumb is the type of ostentatious arrogance that's soooo annoying about 2019 politics. 

 

I don't know if we've ever lived in a time when so many people were absolutely certain that their positions are the only way. As a populace, we're less educated on policy than prior generations, but 10x more sure that our positions are correct. 

 

Having said that, I think cap rates is a great idea, too. 

Edited by YABO713

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9 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

See @DarkandStormy this is where I lose you on a lot of stuff... 

 

"Laughably dumb" has yet to be tried. I have approximately $100k in loans left and I put money into my 401k every paycheck. I cut back on the lifestyle I lead, sure, and I personally would be very interested in this program. But to call it laughably dumb is the type of ostentatious arrogance that's soooo annoying about 2019 politics. 

 

I don't know if we've ever lived in a time when so many people were absolutely certain that their positions are the only way. As a populace, we're less educated on policy than prior generations, but 10x more sure that our positions are correct. 

 

Having said that, I think cap rates is a great idea, too. 

 

Half the country has no savings in their retirement accounts or such a small amount it wouldn't make a difference.

 

I have yet to see any data that says significant portions of the population with $10k+ in their 401ks and IRAs have, I don't know, $25k+ in student loan debt.

 

For those who complain about progressive plans because "the rich would benefit," I'm curious about their take on this proposal.  Because it seems like it's only a benefit if you're rich enough to have saved significant amounts in a 401k or IRA.


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@YABO713 I think people like you and I who have a lot of student loan debt but also have a healthy amount in a 401k would definitely benefit. But I don't think the policy is good for the country. The people most affected by student loan debt are those who went to community college, didn't finish at a four year college, or went to a for-profit college. A lot of low-income folks realize after a year and a half or so of a four year college that they can't afford to continue and now they are shouldered with a debt burden and they have no degree. THAT'S what we need to solve. You and I will be okay.

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41 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Just make any tuition and student loan payments tax free so you get a bigger refund at the end of the year if you pay off some of your loans. Wouldn't that do the exact same thing without risking individuals raiding their 401ks to go for degrees? Also, I agree that pretty much no one would utilize Rand Paul's idea.

I would have used Rand Paul's solution if it existed when I was paying off my student loans.  I simply would have funneled my loan payments through my 401k account to ensure the payment is tax free.  However, I also agree that this an incredibly inefficient way to effectively make student loan payments tax free.  Just revise the tax code to make the entire payment tax deductible (not just the interest).  Why go through the trouble of forcing people to take the extra step?

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5 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

@YABO713 I think people like you and I who have a lot of student loan debt but also have a healthy amount in a 401k would definitely benefit. But I don't think the policy is good for the country. The people most affected by student loan debt are those who went to community college, didn't finish at a four year college, or went to a for-profit college. A lot of low-income folks realize after a year and a half or so of a four year college that they can't afford to continue and now they are shouldered with a debt burden and they have no degree. THAT'S what we need to solve. You and I will be okay.

 

So to this point, I would recommend the book "Nudge" by behavioral economist Richard Thaler to everyone...

 

There's a chapter devoted wholly to 401k enrollment. Something as simple as reducing the enrollment process to under 30 minutes or <2 pages of information DRAMATICALLY increases participation rights. Moreover, when people do enroll, it's extremely seldom that anyone closes a 401k or IRA or ceases/dramatically reduces contributions. 

 

I think if we gave serious incentives - i.e. employee contribution to reducing student debt via 401Ks - we would see the enrollment numbers dramatically increase... 

 

Having said that, I'd operate on the assumption that each payment wouldn't zero out everyone's 401k balance... So assuming that most people can pay it office within 10-20 years, we'd be looking at people eliminating their debt burden while creating a baseline for retirement. 

 

I just fail to see how incentivizing retirement savings plans and providing tax incentives for those of us with debt burdens is "laughably dumb"

 

This clearly isn't the whole answer, but I think it's a reasonable step to assisting the financial security of Americans. 

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9 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Any time people get a head in their retirement accounts, healthcare just comes a long and takes it.

 

Excellent point, as well

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7 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Having said that, I'd operate on the assumption that each payment wouldn't zero out everyone's 401k balance... So assuming that most people can pay it office within 10-20 years, we'd be looking at people eliminating their debt burden while creating a baseline for retirement. 

 

I just fail to see how incentivizing retirement savings plans and providing tax incentives for those of us with debt burdens is "laughably dumb"

 

As shown by the stats, only half the country has more than $5k in a retirement account.  This proposal would only benefit those in high-enough paying jobs to build significant wealth in a 401k or IRA.  

 

"So assuming that most people can pay it office within 10-20 years, we'd be looking at people eliminating their debt burden while creating a baseline for retirement. " - I'm not sure I understand.  Raiding your 401k or IRA for 10-20 years sets you up for likely "failure" when it comes to retirement.

 

As others have said, if it's just about getting around the "taxation" part of it, just make the whole payment tax deductible.  All you're doing is moving pre-tax money from a different bucket by opening up 401k/IRAs to be used.  Fundamentally, it's no different than saying the whole student loan payment is tax deductible.


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Just now, DarkandStormy said:

 

As shown by the stats, only half the country has more than $5k in a retirement account.  This proposal would only benefit those in high-enough paying jobs to build significant wealth in a 401k or IRA.  

 

"So assuming that most people can pay it office within 10-20 years, we'd be looking at people eliminating their debt burden while creating a baseline for retirement. " - I'm not sure I understand.  Raiding your 401k or IRA for 10-20 years sets you up for likely "failure" when it comes to retirement.

 

As others have said, if it's just about getting around the "taxation" part of it, just make the whole payment tax deductible.  All you're doing is moving pre-tax money from a different bucket by opening up 401k/IRAs to be used.  Fundamentally, it's no different than saying the whole student loan payment is tax deductible.

 

Here's the thing though ... giving people a concrete incentive to establish a 401k is a "nudge" that would HELP Americans get more in savings. 

 

Moreover, "raiding your 401k" for people that wouldn't otherwise have it is like complaining about having to sell some personal belongings to a person that would otherwise be homeless. 

 

Again, I am not suggesting this proposal is perfect... but I think this is a great way to:

 

1. Promote fiscal responsibility

 

2. Incentivize the establishment of retirement savings accounts. 

 

3. Reduce the debt burden of Americans. 

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https://www.forbes.com/sites/wesleywhistle/2019/12/05/rand-pauls-solution-for-student-debt-rob-peter-to-pay-paul/#19774b317b9b

 

It's robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

If a young person is fortunate enough to be able to save in a 401k or IRA, taking that money out to pay off student loans is terrible financial management.  The investments in your first 15 years are more important the ones you make in your last 15 years due to compound interest.  This plan would deplete compound interest.

 

This is just a way to use "pre-tax" dollars to make loan payments.  It's moving pre-tax money around from one bucket to another.  Why make it complicated (a GOP hallmark)?  Just make the whole payment tax-deductible.

 

Quote

Senator Paul’s costly plan does nothing to actually address the cost of college. Instead, it’s just a rob Peter to pay Paul approach that helps those with more resources and hurts those who need the help. While borrowers may free up some cash now under his short-sighted plan, they’ll put less into their retirement accounts making them less financially secure. Instead of finding more giveaways for the wealthy, Senator Rand Paul should help his constituents in Kentucky by investing in need-based aid like the Pell Grant and by enacting a federal-state partnership that would lower the cost of college.

 


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22 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wesleywhistle/2019/12/05/rand-pauls-solution-for-student-debt-rob-peter-to-pay-paul/#19774b317b9b

 

It's robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

If a young person is fortunate enough to be able to save in a 401k or IRA, taking that money out to pay off student loans is terrible financial management.  The investments in your first 15 years are more important the ones you make in your last 15 years due to compound interest.  This plan would deplete compound interest.

 

This is just a way to use "pre-tax" dollars to make loan payments.  It's moving pre-tax money around from one bucket to another.  Why make it complicated (a GOP hallmark)?  Just make the whole payment tax-deductible.

 

 


Definitely a fair point in re: interest. I wonder what other savings vehicles could be utilized as alternatives

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2 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

@YABO713 I think people like you and I who have a lot of student loan debt but also have a healthy amount in a 401k would definitely benefit. But I don't think the policy is good for the country. The people most affected by student loan debt are those who went to community college, didn't finish at a four year college, or went to a for-profit college. A lot of low-income folks realize after a year and a half or so of a four year college that they can't afford to continue and now they are shouldered with a debt burden and they have no degree. THAT'S what we need to solve. You and I will be okay.

 

Which is why this Rand Paul idea, while I admire that he's actually offering SOMETHING in the way of a solution, will have zero effect.  It really ends up being just another GOP way to kick the can down the road, much like HSA's with health care.   Most poor people or true small business owners can't afford to fund them, so while they sound good on paper, it's really just another tax dodge for high net worth (GOP Donor) individuals.  

Edited by Cleburger

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3 hours ago, freefourur said:

JoE BiDeN iS CoRrUpt, THaT's whY i ExTorTed UkRaINe

 

 

 

I feel like they believe if they can help the president get away with it all, there is nothing to stop their own crimes.  And really, would they be wrong?  

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On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 10:51 AM, YABO713 said:

 

See @DarkandStormy this is where I lose you on a lot of stuff... 

 

"Laughably dumb" has yet to be tried. I have approximately $100k in loans left and I put money into my 401k every paycheck. I cut back on the lifestyle I lead, sure, and I personally would be very interested in this program. But to call it laughably dumb is the type of ostentatious arrogance that's soooo annoying about 2019 politics. 

 

I don't know if we've ever lived in a time when so many people were absolutely certain that their positions are the only way. As a populace, we're less educated on policy than prior generations, but 10x more sure that our positions are correct. 

 

Having said that, I think cap rates is a great idea, too. 

This is the frustrating thing when dealing with trying to help things like healthcare and student loan crisis.

I don't think Rand Paul believes his plan is a silver bullet and will solve the entire problem, but this "laughably dumb" idea is just a tool that some people can use to ease their burden. It is a market based concept that provides flexibility and freedom for the individual in making choices that suit their personal interests. Will it solve the problem, no, but laughably dumb it is not.

 

To @darkandStormy, any plan that does not involve a free college education appears to be a non-starter for him. 

 

While there is a student loan crisis, it is not to the point where there is a strong push for free college yet (yes some age groups want it). If there is an aspect that would be socialized first, health care will come before college, and the US is not there on health care either. So, stomping your feet and demanding college be free is wasting time and not trying to come up with other constructive solutions that could work.

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1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

To @darkandStormy, any plan that does not involve a free college education appears to be a non-starter for him. 

 

There is the weekly tradition of making **** up that people didn't say.  Would be a shame if someone started doing the same to you on a weekly basis.

 

If you actually read the thread carefully you'll note that I call out a way to tweak this plan that a) is less complicated, b) achieves the same thing from a big picture perspective and c) would be available to anyone making student loan payments, not just those who have funds in a retirement account.  I suggest you try reading again to find it.

Edited by DarkandStormy

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On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 1:05 PM, YABO713 said:

Definitely a fair point in re: interest. I wonder what other savings vehicles could be utilized as alternatives

 

If the goal here is essentially to save on current taxes as a way to help those making student loan payments either a) make the whole payment deductible or b) let people continue contributing to a 529 after school and let them to use those funds to pay off their loans.  If I'm not mistaken, you can't make a payment out of a 529 on loans, only current tuition or other associated costs.  So that's a "pre tax" savings that doesn't involve ruining their retirement outlook.

 

But these are all mostly band-aids to a much bigger problem that Paul's bill doesn't seek to address.


Very Stable Genius

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23 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

There is the weekly tradition of making **** up that people didn't say.  Would be a shame if someone started doing the same to you on a weekly basis.

 

If you actually read the thread carefully you'll note that I call out a way to tweak this plan that a) is less complicated, b) achieves the same thing from a big picture perspective and c) would be available to anyone making student loan payments, not just those who have funds in a retirement account.  I suggest you try reading again to find it.

I stand corrected on your point.

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1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

If the goal here is essentially to save on current taxes as a way to help those making student loan payments either a) make the whole payment deductible or b) let people continue contributing to a 529 after school and let them to use those funds to pay off their loans.  If I'm not mistaken, you can't make a payment out of a 529 on loans, only current tuition or other associated costs.  So that's a "pre tax" savings that doesn't involve ruining their retirement outlook.

 

But these are all mostly band-aids to a much bigger problem that Paul's bill doesn't seek to address.

 

We definitely agree in re: it being a band-aid to a much larger problem. 

 

As I've noted before though, I think this band-aid is a nice supplement, however, because I think a lot of people will open up retirement accounts who currently don't have them or otherwise wouldn't. 

 

I'm looking into your 529 point - that's interesting

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57 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

As I've noted before though, I think this band-aid is a nice supplement, however, because I think a lot of people will open up retirement accounts who currently don't have them or otherwise wouldn't. 

 

I'm looking into your 529 point - that's interesting

 

I disagree on the benefit of the current non-retirement savers opening up a 401k/IRA because they'd just be immediately draining it to pay off their loans.  And I need to see data about those people - do they not currently have one because a) they don't have the income right now to set aside 10-15% of their income for retirement or is it b) the lack of education about such accounts that you mentioned earlier?

 

If it's b) then that probably applies to 529s as well.  It would take a lot of work to educate people about them and I don't believe those contributions can be auto-deducted like a 401k.


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Time to start putting these people on trial for crimes against America....

 

 


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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Note that contributions to a 529 account are not currently tax-deductible at the federal level, so any proposal (Republican or otherwise) to make student loan principal payments tax-advantaged would need to either change that rule or use a different kind of vehicle, e.g., the 401(k) accounts already proposed.

 

I also actually consider the concept of making student loan principal payments tax-advantaged somewhat unfair and also likely to come with unintended consequences, because it actually incentivizes more debt.  If tuition for X years was $50,000 and I simply paid $50,000, I'm paying that with after-tax money (or at least partially after-tax money even if paid through a 529, which avoids state income taxes and federal capital gains taxes).  If I can pay off student debts with effectively pre-tax money, however, I'm better off borrowing for school than paying it up front, because I can knock $50,000 off my taxable income by borrowing first and paying later, whereas I'm simply paying $50,000, full stop, if I pay as I go.

 

Speaking just with respect to Ohio (though I know this is a national problem): Ohio's public colleges and universities remain surprisingly affordable, moreso than I would have expected in the early 2000s when I was part of the losing effort to stop the Ohio legislature from repealing the caps on annual tuition increases.  I remember that when I matriculated at The Ohio State University in the fall of 2000, annual tuition was about $3900 for an academic year (3 quarters).  It's $11,084 for an academic year at Columbus (main campus) and $7,912 at regional campuses today.  That's not as bad an increase as it could have been over 20 years, certainly less than my nightmares from those early days when tuition was jumping by 15-18% per year.  Even under the old 6% cap, over 20 years, they could have raised it to $3900 x 1.06^20 = $12,508 by now if they'd wanted.

 

Granted, using the BLS' CPI calculator, $3900 in 2000 should only have increased to about $5778 today, and I would have loved to see tuition held to that, but even the old law wouldn't have required that.  Realistically, holding to that level would require direct legislative action by the Republican-controlled Ohio legislature, and much as they cringe at the ideological slant in the universities they fund, they're not going to do that.

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Put all of this trash into the compactor...

 

 


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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LOL/GOP!

 

 


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/13/politics/former-kentucky-governor-matt-bevin-pardons/index.html

 

Quote

Former Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin issued hundreds of pardons and commutations of sentences in his final days in office after his November defeat to Democrat Andy Beshear, some of which are for violent offenses.

 

The Kentucky secretary of state's office began filing the majority of these executive orders into their public system on December 11, their website shows.

 

The office says due to the high volume of final actions by Bevin, the documents are still being processed.

 

Quote

That list of pardons includes Blake Walker, who was convicted in 2003 of killing his parents; Kurt Smith, who as a teenager was found guilty of murdering his 6-week old son; Delmar Partin, who was convicted of beheading a woman and stuffing her in a barrel; and Kathy Ann Harless, who left her newborn baby to die in an outhouse.

 

Quote

Bevin pardoned and commuted the sentences of Dayton Jones, who was convicted in 2016 of sexually assaulting a 15-year-old boy; and Patrick Baker, who convicted of reckless homicide in 2017. The Courier Journal reported that Baker's family had held a fundraiser and donated to Bevin's gubernatorial campaigns. Baker served two years of a 19-year sentence, while his co-defendants are still in prison, the newspaper reported.

 

The former governor did the same for Micah Schoettle, convicted last year of raping a child and sentenced to 23 years in prison.

 

The Republican Party remains extremely committed to its brand of values.


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Too funny...and too sad...

 

 


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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The pale male trail....

 

 


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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Yet, another member of the pro-life party that doesn't understand female anatomy. This is crazy.

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/12/ex-gop-governor-matt-bevin-claims-the-young-victim-of-a-rapist-he-pardoned-was-lying-her-hymen-was-intact/

Ex-GOP governor Matt Bevin claims the 9-year-old victim of a rapist he pardoned was lying: ‘Her hymen was intact’

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