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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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1 minute ago, thebillshark said:


that’s the way it is for every meeting. this is a huge flaw in the way HCB publishes information 

 

All they need to do is have a twitter account that posts the results of each item on the agenda. Why can't we have that? Same for all of the other boards and commissions in the city.

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56 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

 

All they need to do is have a twitter account that posts the results of each item on the agenda. Why can't we have that? Same for all of the other boards and commissions in the city.


Or just post a draft of the meeting minutes on the same web page they post the agendas.  Very simple 

 

the lack of meeting minutes makes it especially hard to follow along on items that come back before the board two or three times with modifications.

Edited by thebillshark
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7 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

"The FC Cincinnati stadium development is expanding to the north, with the team taking control of eight more properties between Wade and Bauer streets in the West End. The plan: Build a 1,000-space parking garage there, which would eliminate Wade Street between John Street and Central Avenue, according to a map given to The Enquirer by the team. The garage would be directly north of the stadium."

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On 11/11/2019 at 1:48 PM, jmecklenborg said:

Is Kuhfers Lofts being torn down?  Before anyone ever lived in the new condos?

 

Based on the Enquirer article today, yes.  

 

It is frustrating the article mentions a map of the proposed development but they don't show it or link to it.

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Zero consideration shown for the urban context of their stadium. Even though a supporters group named “the Innenstadt” helped the fledgling fan base get off the ground

Edited by thebillshark

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21 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

Hey our fans think the urban core is really cool and hip so we’re going to come in and raze a huge chunk of it, k?

 

To be fair a huge chunk of it was razed a long time ago. What's left are the historic "scraps". The ruins of stupid decisions made decades ago. 

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Oh my god this stadium is a disaster. That area will be totally dead most of the time. This is as much an ‘urban’ stadium as the ‘urban’ casino turned out to be. This won’t be used By other cities as best practices anytime soon. 

 

And let me get this straight, there’s a garage under the stadium and now next to it? Is that right?

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3 minutes ago, atlas said:

Oh my god this stadium is a disaster. That area will be totally dead most of the time. This is as much an ‘urban’ stadium as the ‘urban’ casino turned out to be. This won’t be used By other cities as best practices anytime soon. 

 

And let me get this straight, there’s a garage under the stadium and now next to it? Is that right?

 

I wasn't aware about a garage under the stadium? Where did you hear this? And FCC always needed the 1,000 space garage that is done in conjunction with Hamilton Co. This was known since day 1 that was the plan. 

Edited by troeros

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I don't think there's a garage under the stadium, unless I missed that also, not sure how I could have. This is a new garage that will be on Liberty basically across from Ollie's if I'm reading that correctly. So then, another Hamilton County garage may be also built somewhere. I know the WCET garage is being torn down too right now, but I'm not sure what's going to replace it, does someone know?

 

But, hopefully by building this garage in the location described the corner where the ballet is will actually be developed into something other than parking. But we'll see. 

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9 minutes ago, atlas said:

And let me get this straight, there’s a garage under the stadium and now next to it? Is that right?

 

This is correct. 

 

The current crop of leadership with FC and this region are intent on applying their suburban principals to the urban core. Exclusion, car-oriented, pedestrian unfriendly and monolithic. Yay...


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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1 minute ago, JYP said:

 

This is correct. 

 

The current crop of leadership with FC and this region are intent on applying their suburban principals to the urban core. Exclusion, car-oriented, pedestrian unfriendly and monolithic. Yay...

 

Where did you hear about a parking garage under the stadium? Do you have a source?

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Ok, so how many spaces do these garages add up to? All in all, I'm guessing less than 5K spaces?...For a 25K seat stadium, that has the potential to be expanded with more seats in the future. 

 

 

Even with all the garages being built by FCC they won't sufficiently supply enough parking regardless. Most people will still need to park in OTR/CBD/The banks and will either need to walk/uber/use the streetcar/red bike/bird/leggo/etc to get to the stadium. 

 

 

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So then why ruin a neighborhood by adding just 1,000 more? Seems totally preposterous. Remember, these garages are also the reason the Liberty Street road diet is so muddled down. When will we learn the answer is in creating a great place for people, instead of this fantasy where we think we can have a place with ease of parking AND still be great for people. Cities don’t work this way anywhere on the planet. 

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14 minutes ago, troeros said:

Ok, so how many spaces do these garages add up to? All in all, I'm guessing less than 5K spaces?...For a 25K seat stadium, that has the potential to be expanded with more seats in the future. 


There are no plans to make this stadium expandable. The current capacity is the largest it is planned to ever be.

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8 minutes ago, atlas said:

So then why ruin a neighborhood by adding just 1,000 more? Seems totally preposterous. Remember, these garages are also the reason the Liberty Street road diet is so muddled down. When will we learn the answer is in creating a great place for people, instead of this fantasy where we think we can have a place with ease of parking AND still be great for people. Cities don’t work this way anywhere on the planet. 

 

The neighborhood was ALREADY ruined. Looking at Google maps there was nothing but giant prairie sized empty lots, and a few scattered historic structures here and there. I understand if FCC was building the stadium right in the middle of otr and destroying the entire fabric...but the West end? There is hardly any fabric to speak of. It was all destroyed during the creation of thr interstates.

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2 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:


There are no plans to make this stadium expandable. The current capacity is the largest it is planned to ever be.

 

Wasn't there discussion of potentially adding more seats in the future? I could've sworn that was discussed at some point by fcc 

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23 minutes ago, JYP said:


I think the "East Stadium Garage" is only going to be one floor of parking with a plaza on top. I don't think it actually goes under the stadium itself. The "West Stadium Parking Lot" is likely permanent (all things can change eventually, so obviously it could be built up in 10 years, but no plans to do so). The temporary parking on the north is likely to be built up in 5-10 years, but I don't expect it to happen extremely quickly. I imagine they'll wait until they are a couple of years into the new stadium before they explore that.

 

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1 minute ago, troeros said:

 

Wasn't there discussion of potentially adding more seats in the future? I could've sworn that was discussed at some point by fcc 

 

It was early on, but that was when they were talking about a 22-25k stadium. They were looking at leaving out a few sections and expanding it at a later date. They decided to pull the trigger and just build all 28k at the start. It won't expand beyond that. It's not being designed to be expanded.

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2 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

The neighborhood was ALREADY ruined. Looking at Google maps there was nothing but giant prairie sized empty lots, and a few scattered historic structures here and there. I understand if FCC was building the stadium right in the middle of otr and destroying the entire fabric...but the West end? There is hardly any fabric to speak of. It was all destroyed during the creation of thr interstates.


this is false. Wade and Bauer are equivalent of any OTR streets you wax ecstatic about. Plenty of them had huge gaping holes before redevelopment started. 1500 block of Race street comes to mind 

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I doubt the west side parking will ever go. Those are most likely for suites, press, players, FCC staff and other VIP folks. The east side lot will also probably be for these kind of folks. Big spenders and other VIP type. I guess they're adding this other 1,000 garage for season ticket holders in lower bowl pitch side seats. Like I said, it's obviously not ideal as is, but hopefully with ballet moving that corner will be developed into some nice house/retailing at some point. 

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Seriously some of you are crying a little too much about the West End being ruined and gutted.  There wasn't anything in this current space due to decisions made decades ago.  The stadium is taking up space for what use to be, checks notes, another stadium!  If you didn't think they were going to build a garage nearby for a new 26k stadium, in Cincinnati, then you're out of touch with reality. 

 

 

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If FCC had any vision, they would restore the historic buildings left on Wade and Bauer, infill appropriately, and call the area FCC Village or something.  It could rather easily rival the banks.  Fans could party there before games.

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8 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

If FCC had any vision, they would restore the historic buildings left on Wade and Bauer, infill appropriately, and call the area FCC Village or something.  It could rather easily rival the banks.  Fans could party there before games.

 

But doesn't that defeat the purpose of the buffet of entertainment offerings in otr?

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13 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Seriously some of you are crying a little too much about the West End being ruined and gutted.  There wasn't anything in this current space due to decisions made decades ago.  The stadium is taking up space for what use to be, checks notes, another stadium!  If you didn't think they were going to build a garage nearby for a new 26k stadium, in Cincinnati, then you're out of touch with reality. 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

If FCC had any vision, they would restore the historic buildings left on Wade and Bauer, infill appropriately, and call the area FCC Village or something.  It could rather easily rival the banks.  Fans could party there before games.

 

There was (and maybe still is) a pathway between both of these positions where FC would improve their plans, incorporate the remaining historic fabric of the block and develop a win/win that balances their needs, preserves whats left of this part of the West End and creates a place north of the stadium that is appreciated by fans and neighbors. Instead we will get superblocks of parking and blank walls. We make the same mistakes because we don't demand better. Shame on us.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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I don't see it as zero sum.  It would add to the urban fabric.  Some people could party there, some in OTR.    Plus, on non-gamedays, there would be something there other than parking.  Ultimately, there would be THERE there.  its about placemaking.

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19 minutes ago, thebillshark said:


this is false. Wade and Bauer are equivalent of any OTR streets you wax ecstatic about. Plenty of them had huge gaping holes before redevelopment started. 1500 block of Race street comes to mind 

 

I'm looking at Google maps and wr are literally talking about a handful of remaining buildings scattered about..I'm not sure how this is anywhere near the ballpark of otr?

 

The 1500 block of race was a rough demolished block for sure, but it's not like otr is defined by that block. What makes otr great are the stretches of fabric that exist on Elm Street, Republic, Vine, Clay, Walnut, Main, Pendelton, etc.

 

OTR is beautiful because it's not a block of historic buildings, but literally a mini European like town/village. That has enough remaining fabric to make you feel like your in a different environment all together. 

 

The West end was deciminated decades ago and crying over a few scattered buildings is worthless. The city screwed up and destroyed a beautiful area our urban core. I'm not crying over these buildings because there was no sense of time or place. Just giant prairie lots and a few dangling teeth hanging off the jaw.

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2 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

I don't see it as zero sum.  It would add to the urban fabric.  Some people could party there, some in OTR.    Plus, on non-gamedays, there would be something there other than parking.  Ultimately, there would be THERE there.  its about placemaking.

 

Besides FCC is still going to create a second phase of mixed use buildings along the stadium with hotels/residential/retail etc.

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Just now, troeros said:

 

Besides FCC is still going to create a second phase of mixed use buildings along the stadium with hotels/residential/retail etc.

Wade and Bauer offer small tight streets and alleyways that were built on a pedestrian scale.  If you infill there, and restore the few remaining historic buildings, you will get a nice PLACE that people will want to hang out in because it feels right.   Central parkway is huge.  Whatever they might build facing Central will not be a comfortable place.  It will not be pedestrian in scale.    For comparison, the retail spaces on 2nd street at the banks just fail one business after another.  The spaces on Freedom Way have been far more successful.     Honestly, having small tight streets is maybe even more valuable than historic buildings.  While it is hard to get good infill, it is impossible to get small skinny streets built.  As soon as DOTE is brought in, massive wide road comes second.   We should NEVER support removing smaller road sections in the urban core.

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1 minute ago, JoeHarmon said:

Wade and Bauer offer small tight streets and alleyways that were built on a pedestrian scale.  If you infill there, and restore the few remaining historic buildings, you will get a nice PLACE that people will want to hang out in because it feels right.   Central parkway is huge.  Whatever they might build facing Central will not be a comfortable place.  It will not be pedestrian in scale.    For comparison, the retail spaces on 2nd street at the banks just fail one business after another.  The spaces on Freedom Way have been far more successful.     Honestly, having small tight streets is maybe even more valuable than historic buildings.  While it is hard to get good infill, it is impossible to get small skinny streets built.  As soon as DOTE is brought in, massive wide road comes second.   We should NEVER support removing smaller road sections in the urban core.

 

I agree. Luckily stadiums aren't built every day, and I don't think there are any other major projects in cincinnati's horizon that will be this involved with the street scape. 

 

Granted if this was Amazon HQ 2 with 50,000 new jobs in our urban core, with jeff bezos personally promising new light rail that he would finance all over greater cincinnati than we at urbanohio would probably care less with what amazon destroys in it's wake. 

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Let's be realistic here guys. This is the area we're talking about. Much of it is already taken up by a parking lot. The buildings on Wade would be directly facing the stadium so they'd be a hard sell for residential. It's possible the team is going to work the buildings on Bauer and Central Parkway into the garage. Overall, we're also talking about a pretty small footprint for a garage of that size. 

 

I'm as anti-parking as anybody but this doesn't seem like a huge deal to me. 

 

EDIT TO ADD: On Bauer, the Hair Design building is really the only one worth saving.

WadeBauer.JPG

Edited by DEPACincy
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35 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I'm looking at Google maps and wr are literally talking about a handful of remaining buildings scattered about..I'm not sure how this is anywhere near the ballpark of otr?

 

The 1500 block of race was a rough demolished block for sure, but it's not like otr is defined by that block. What makes otr great are the stretches of fabric that exist on Elm Street, Republic, Vine, Clay, Walnut, Main, Pendelton, etc.

 

OTR is beautiful because it's not a block of historic buildings, but literally a mini European like town/village. That has enough remaining fabric to make you feel like your in a different environment all together. 

 

The West end was deciminated decades ago and crying over a few scattered buildings is worthless. The city screwed up and destroyed a beautiful area our urban core. I'm not crying over these buildings because there was no sense of time or place. Just giant prairie lots and a few dangling teeth hanging off the jaw.

 

Those "dangling teeth" are important because they tie the neighborhood back to its history and break up the potential monotony of a block scale development.

 

 So much urban infill is monolithic 5+1 retail/parking/apartment across the country. We are in a rush towards "anywhere urbanism" and these buildings, though few in number, can help break that up. 

 

And sure, there are ways to incorporate parking into this. It will be expensive but more worthwhile to do this right instead of fast and cheap. 

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“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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The 35x90 lot at the NW corner of Wade & Central Ave. just sold for $225,000.  This is more than has paid for any similarly-sized lot in OTR.  And this...for a parking garage.

 

As you can see, Odd Lots, LLC got this lot for free from the Auditor.  I attempted to buy this lot in 2017 but got no response from the LLC, who was located in a car dealership up in Reading.  I did have a lot just north of here under contract for $8,400 but that deal fell through.  I did own 411 & 413 and sold them for 9x what I bought them for, but it looks like I could have sold them for 18x what I bought them for if I had waited a few more months.  

oddlots.JPG

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14 minutes ago, JYP said:

 

Those "dangling teeth" are important because they tie the neighborhood back to its history and break up the potential monotony of a block scale development.

 

 So much urban infill is monolithic 5+1 retail/parking/apartment across the country. We are in a rush towards "anywhere urbanism" and these buildings, though few in number, can help break that up. 

 

And sure, there are ways to incorporate parking into this. It will be expensive but more worthwhile to do this right instead of fast and cheap. 

 

I agree with the monotony comment..But say if I'm a real estate developer (not fcc related), and wanted to build a new mixed use structure in that location...what motivation would I have to cling on to these buildings if I could demolish them and building something taller and more dense with more residential units in it's place, plus gain more profit in return? 

 

The old west end, that resides north next to north of liberty otr is more important imo. There are still alot of streets left with great historic fabric intact, and some fabulous architecture. 

 

 

 

 

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