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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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When you look at the Oakley site, it's pretty obvious that they're actually going to have a serious land crunch.  The space simply is not there to do this unless they have the Cast-Fab land:

oakley-2_zpshgtuodmv.jpg

 

Cast-fab shut down last year, but who owns that land?  Is the city going to pay to tear it down?

 

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Here is the guy who owns the Cast-Fab property:

http://jburoker.charterrealtyrealestate.com

 

Got it for $2.2 million at the bottom of the recession and presumably has been leasing it back to Cast-Fab:

oakely-3_zpsdafekvzh.jpg

 

Here are the boundaries of the property -- yes, enough to comfortably build a stadium and surrounding plaza:

oakley-4_zpsmeosvoab.jpg

 

So does the city's "infrastructure" payment include acquiring and tearing down this place?  What sort of clean-up will be required?  The low price the guy got in 2010 indicates that there will be quite a bit of cleanup. 

 

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When you look at the Oakley site, it's pretty obvious that they're actually going to have a serious land crunch.  The space simply is not there to do this unless they have the Cast-Fab land:

 

FCC's Oakley plan is to use the Cast-Fab site... but no word on costs of a) land acquisition or b) demolition and site remediation. This is why I've been annoyed by the vague talks of "infrastructure". If FCC wants somebody else to pay for site remediation, then they need to say that. I have no idea what it'll cost to make that site ready for construction, but I suspect it'll be significant.

 

Question regarding parking at the proposed Oakley site: with all of the free, surface parking nearby, how would FCC be able to "capture" revenue from parking? Wouldn't people park in one of the many surface parking lots in front of the AMC movie theater, Sam's, Meijer, and Kroger nearby? Or would those property owners restrict their parking on game days to prohibit FCC use? If those property owners decide to charge FCC fans for parking, how would FCC ownership capture any of that revenue? It's just a strange/unfortunate situation since there is no central control over parking infrastructure. Each of the big box retailers owns their own parking. I don't know what - if anything - can be done to force coordination on game days.

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Demolition is in progress as we speak (saw it when I drove by.) Don’t know what the scope is of required remediation.

 

Article: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/09/06/exclusive-cast-fab-selling-former-oakley-facility.html

 

 

Question regarding parking at the proposed Oakley site: with all of the free, surface parking nearby, how would FCC be able to "capture" revenue from parking? Wouldn't people park in one of the many surface parking lots in front of the AMC movie theater, Sam's, Meijer, and Kroger nearby? Or would those property owners restrict their parking on game days to prohibit FCC use? If those property owners decide to charge FCC fans for parking, how would FCC ownership capture any of that revenue? It's just a strange/unfortunate situation since there is no central control over parking infrastructure. Each of the big box retailers owns their own parking. I don't know what - if anything - can be done to force coordination on game days.

 

Yeah I was wondering that to. It seems like that huge Target/Meijier lot is never more than half full. The stadium would need some parking beyond the 1,000 car proposed garage and I wonder if they are counting on being able to use some of these huge surface lots. But there wouldn’t be any incentive for the property owners to share any parking revenue with the club even if the box stores agreed to let the lots be used.


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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I'm interested in parking because a) control of parking revenue is one of the reasons why MLS and b) it'll determine if/how future development happens.

 

Since FCC can't control all of those parking lots nearby, I don't see how they capture any more parking revenue than their current situation at Nippert (where folks use a variety of garages/lots throughout the areas around UC).

 

The <a href="https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/06/22/council-committee-backs-new-garage-to-lure-jobs.html">City paid $6.2 million</a> for the construction of the 383-space parking garage for Anthem ($16,000/space), using TIF funds. In the announcement, they called it a "public" garage, so presumably that garage be used on game days for FCC, and the City could decide to give FCC rights to all game day revenue. If the county does fund a new 1,000-space garage, where would the garage be located? Its location will determine a lot about how much it benefits ongoing development, as opposed to sitting vacant on non-game days.

 

Question for site planners: with the way the streets/buildings are laid out around there, is there any way to "fix" the layout to make it more walkable and allow for further increases in density? Disney/Ibsen is bad, bad, bad with all the buildings showing their butts to the street. Vandercar has some potential with the storefronts, apartments and office at least facing the street.

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Question regarding parking at the proposed Oakley site: with all of the free, surface parking nearby, how would FCC be able to "capture" revenue from parking? Wouldn't people park in one of the many surface parking lots in front of the AMC movie theater, Sam's, Meijer, and Kroger nearby? Or would those property owners restrict their parking on game days to prohibit FCC use? If those property owners decide to charge FCC fans for parking, how would FCC ownership capture any of that revenue? It's just a strange/unfortunate situation since there is no central control over parking infrastructure. Each of the big box retailers owns their own parking. I don't know what - if anything - can be done to force coordination on game days.

 

This is why the argument that "this new infrastructure will benefit the entire Oakley community" doesn't make any sense. As if people would park in the new parking garage and walk to Oakley Square. They won't. If people were willing to walk that far, they would already be parking at the Kroger or Cinemark and walking to Oakley Square. Now if a pedestrian connection is built between Oakley Station and the traditional Oakley street grid, such as at 34th Avenue*, it would make the walking distance much shorter, but I still think not that many people would be willing to walk that distance. Not to mention, would Oakleyites really want large groups of people cutting down their quiet residential streets to walk between Oakley Station and Oakley Square?

 

*Does anybody know where are the are a few numbered streets in Oakley (28th Street and 31th-34th Avenues)? What grid is/was this supposed to be a part of, and where would First Street/Avenue be? And why is 28th a street instead of an avenue?

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It's a 3,000-foot walk as the crow flied from Cast-Fab to Oakley Square.  But over 7,000 if you follow the sidewalks and don't illegally cross the railroad tracks. 

 

Maybe part of the "infrastructure" will be a pedestrian walk over the tracks. 

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*Does anybody know where are the are a few numbered streets in Oakley (28th Street and 31th-34th Avenues)? What grid is/was this supposed to be a part of, and where would First Street/Avenue be? And why is 28th a street instead of an avenue?

 

Not sure if this means anything, but if you assume each missing block would be equal length and just extend west until you reach the beginning you would reach Ledgewood Drive, which is an extension of Woodburn north of Xavier.

 

Perhaps Norwood used to have Avenues going North/South and those got renamed, but the city never renamed their streets. No idea about 28th being a "street" though.

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Pedestrian bridge would be a great part of the infrastructure plan. The current FCC pre-match march is exactly 1 mile. Google maps has a 1.2 mile walk from Habits to approximate location of Oakley stadium. Though it takes some weird turns in Oakley Station. So really not that much of a difference. A ped bridge would reduce and frankly has to be part of the plan.

 

Current route: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.1324971,-84.5028829/39.129834,-84.5164442/@39.1304582,-84.5154035,16z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e2!5i1?hl=en

Possible Oakley route: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.1516981,-84.4325339/39.1608827,-84.4315308/@39.1566774,-84.4309675,16z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2?hl=en

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*Does anybody know where are the are a few numbered streets in Oakley (28th Street and 31th-34th Avenues)? What grid is/was this supposed to be a part of, and where would First Street/Avenue be? And why is 28th a street instead of an avenue?

 

Based on the Sanborn map from 1917 that can be found for free on the library's website (would post a link but I'm not allowed, not even in quotes.)  It looks like any possible renaming of anything resembling a grid to the west would've needed to be renamed prior to that year.  From that map you can also see the 29th & 30th were renamed at some point.

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Imagining the development of a stadium will help urbanize Oakley when the discussion of $75m in infrastructure is rotating around parking, access roads, highway access and not a peep about BRT or LRT is 100% fantasy. It's a spatial reasoning fallacy. Investing millions to double-down on stroadifying the neighborhood and funneling traffic to/from I-71 will only make retrofitting harder later. FCC will, most likely, eventually come to the same realization the Crew has come to: that they need the stadium to be in the urban core to maximize success. If we're lucky, then Crossroads would take over the Oakley stadium instead of leaving it to decay.

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^I agree... especially if their plan for "infrastructure upgrades" is just to widen streets that are already wide. That being said, I do think that if the stadium goes into the CastFab site, we will see more infill and densification around it. There are still a number of unbuilt out-parcels, which could support higher density hotels/apartments/offices. You can see the beginnings at the corner of Vandecar and Factory Colony, where all four corners are built out and face the street: (hotel, Bar Louie, apartments, Anthem office). ... so there's at least potential for increased density. 

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I do think there is hope and possibility for some medium density development along Vandercar Way, similar to what exists at Anthem/Oakley Station. If this site is the one picked, I would hope they would line up the stadium with Vandercar to cap that view with a plaza and big main entrance, and place the jumbo parking garage behind it next to the expressway. That would help give it a slightly more urban feel and allow for Vandercar to feel like a gateway street of some sorts. Couple this with a pedestrian bridge and some development south of the train tracks and there is actually a decent amount of potential here.

 

Red is developable parcels, blue would be parking, Mapfre used for stadium scale.

FCC_Oakley.JPG.3c6e898f9ffda38819cf92f7d941621d.JPG

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I do think there is hope and possibility for some medium density development along Vandercar Way, similar to what exists at Anthem/Oakley Station. If this site is the one picked, I would hope they would line up the stadium with Vandercar to cap that view with a plaza and big main entrance, and place the jumbo parking garage behind it next to the expressway. That would help give it a slightly more urban feel and allow for Vandercar to feel like a gateway street of some sorts. Couple this with a pedestrian bridge and some development south of the train tracks and there is actually a decent amount of potential here.

 

Red is developable parcels, blue would be parking, Mapfre used for stadium scale.

 

This is good (and optimistic) thinking, but it's still New Urbanist suburban, rather than actual urban development. I'm in agreement with you guys that a pedestrian bridge over the train tracks would go a long way in connecting the site to the neighborhood. I only see Madison getting worse, north of the NBD, and any involvement of Madison on the march to the stadium would completely kill the ambiance. (Are people seriously considering a march from MadTree?!) Still, there will be no serious commitment to urbanism here with BRT and LRT off the menu.

 

Rather than offering to build parking garages and improved highway access, the city and county should be asking the FCC owners to kick in toward BRT or LRT to the site as a condition of approving tax credits and whatnot. That's how you build an urban neighborhood. If that's not feasible, the site isn't feasible.

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I do think there is hope and possibility for some medium density development along Vandercar Way, similar to what exists at Anthem/Oakley Station. If this site is the one picked, I would hope they would line up the stadium with Vandercar to cap that view with a plaza and big main entrance, and place the jumbo parking garage behind it next to the expressway. That would help give it a slightly more urban feel and allow for Vandercar to feel like a gateway street of some sorts. Couple this with a pedestrian bridge and some development south of the train tracks and there is actually a decent amount of potential here.

 

Red is developable parcels, blue would be parking, Mapfre used for stadium scale.

I wouldn't want the new parking garage to be on the "far" (west) side of the stadium... because that'd make it hard to use for non-stadium purposes. Would be better to put the stadium right next to the highway, and then put the garage in a more "central" location where it could be wrapped by office/hotel/apartment/retail.

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Red is developable parcels, blue would be parking, Mapfre used for stadium scale.

 

I would expect the stadium to be built at least 100 feet north of that location in order to enable Vandercaar Way to be extended west to I-71 and then south under the railroad tracks to Robertson and Edwards. 

 

The only thing "urban" about this site will be the single-digit number of people who rent those apartments and who work at those small office buildings.  Workers at the big box stores can't afford those apartments or any of the homes within walking distance. 

 

 

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Maybe it could urbanize Oakley from the south by connecting it to the rest of the neighborhood heading North, but no way is it going to be an urban neighborhood from the North heading south.  That is a glut of surface parking any ODOT official would be proud of

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Probably the best possible thing to do is to not build the stadium there and go and rebuild the street grid from the south and turn it into single family housing, but fairly dense single family housing.

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Chris Wetterich posted on twitter Cranley's outline:

 

$9.5 million in TIF

 

$7.3 million from Blue Ash Airport

 

$20 million from surplus lodging tax which supposedly belongs to the city (not certain if this is spread out I highly doubt they have $20 million sitting around as of right now, said it would be borrowed by FCC then paid back by the surplus tax but any shortcomings on the surplus tax would be paid by FCC)

 

 

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WVXU has posted the proposed ordinance. It calls for so many "improvements" to the site!

 

- Remove bump-outs on Vandercar Way

- Improve Vandercar Way to 5-lanes between Marburg and Madison

- Widen Madison Rd between Ridge and Kennedy to 5-lanes

- Make Geier Dr public and extend around outer edge of site

- Construct Vandercar/Geier/Edwards/Disney loop around stadium site - All 5 lanes

 

So much for those sidewalk bump-outs and sharrows that at least attempted to make the area a bit more pedestrian and bike friendly. There is no attempt in this plan to make the development walkable, transit-accessible, or new urbanist in any way. No pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks, either, as far as I can tell.

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WVXU has posted the proposed ordinance. It calls for so many "improvements" to the site!

 

- Remove bump-outs on Vandercar Way

- Improve Vandercar Way to 5-lanes between Marburg and Madison

- Widen Madison Rd between Ridge and Kennedy to 5-lanes

- Make Geier Dr public and extend around outer edge of site

- Construct Vandercar/Geier/Edwards/Disney loop around stadium site - All 5 lanes

 

So much for those sidewalk bump-outs and sharrows that at least attempted to make the area a bit more pedestrian and bike friendly. There is no attempt in this plan to make the development walkable, transit-accessible, or new urbanist in any way. No pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks, either, as far as I can tell.

Yea its pretty much shit. Nice. Even though i want it built in the city I will be protesting this.

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It looked like from the render they had on the press conference that the stadium abuts the wall along the exit here for a beautiful view of the highways. With what Travis says above, they couldnt make it more boring of a layout if they tried. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1636934,-84.433205,3a,89.9y,162.43h,102.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNaeVk7JVmXHDQJqVot8fg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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Please tell me a Frisch's Carhop is accounted for in this bleeding-edge site plan.

 

Drive-through beer store

 

1-story storage units

 

A motel where you enter your room from the outside

 

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Per Chris Wetterich, an extension of Edwards up to this site is not being considered at this time. So I think that "Vandercar/Geier/Edwards/Disney loop around stadium site" text is outdated. Most likely only Geier will be extended and meet up with Disney Street or Vandercar Way somehow.

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WVXU has posted the proposed ordinance. It calls for so many "improvements" to the site!

 

- Remove bump-outs on Vandercar Way

- Improve Vandercar Way to 5-lanes between Marburg and Madison

- Widen Madison Rd between Ridge and Kennedy to 5-lanes

- Make Geier Dr public and extend around outer edge of site

- Construct Vandercar/Geier/Edwards/Disney loop around stadium site - All 5 lanes

 

So much for those sidewalk bump-outs and sharrows that at least attempted to make the area a bit more pedestrian and bike friendly. There is no attempt in this plan to make the development walkable, transit-accessible, or new urbanist in any way. No pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks, either, as far as I can tell.

 

So they are removing bumpouts for the "urban stadium" site. ;D

 

And how exactly are they planning on converting this stretch of Madison to 5 lanes?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1593992,-84.4197918,151m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

 

This couldn't be more of a lemon if someone were intentionally making it one. They should just put this thing in West Chester or Mason at this point. How about here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3720471,-84.3789773,599m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

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So they are removing bumpouts for the "urban stadium" site. ;D

 

I will hereby refer to this as a "Reverse Liberty Street".

 

And how exactly are they planning on converting this stretch of Madison to 5 lanes?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1593992,-84.4197918,151m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

 

Houses on each side of the street will probably lose 5" of their front lawn.

 

This couldn't be more of a lemon if someone were intentionally making it one. They should just put this thing in West Chester or Mason at this point. How about here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3720471,-84.3789773,599m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

 

Not a bad idea. If you put it next to Liberty Center it would actually be more urban and walkable than the Oakley proposal.

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The parking lots for the movie theatre and big box stores in that rendering have a greenish tint to them that makes them look like parkspace or something (they’re not of course)


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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The rendering shows new development on the southside of the railroad tracks and it appears the parking garage is located to the north on the Milacron site (which is separate from CastFab). Not sure if those property acquisitions are part of this or not.

 

 

 

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