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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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12 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Is that an aviary at center-right?  Or a marijuana grow operation?

 

 

 

Yeah I was trying to figure out what the heck that thing is.  None of the pictures they put out really show what is in there.  

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4 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

The ownership will probably develop all of the lots to the north and east of the stadium as a later phase, probably after the ballet leaves and after they can acquire that cell phone tower site. There is the potential to build some really nice infill between the stadium and Central Parkway, and I don't care too much that the base of the stadium is pretty borning, since it will be mostly hidden from view after infill is built. Let's just hope that our country doesn't enter a recession in the early 2020s and put all of those infill plans on hold for a decade.

I think the ballet has a pretty long term lease on their building so it's probably going to take a big check from the team to get them to move.  Hopefully it happens sooner then later.  And yeah let's please get that cell phone tower moved as well.  

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I think it looks great and will be a great atmosphere inside with the new Bailey. Exciting times. Looking forward to hosting some CONCACAF Nations League matches, Gold Cup matches and World Cup Qualifiers. Doesn't look too dramatically different from renderings we already saw....I sure feel vindicated 😜

 

That being said, not sure what the ramp building is next to the staircase. Also would have rather had the team shop up on the road and I saw on twitter somebody stated a cut out on the SE corner would be a nice to see downtown from the pitch. 

Edited by cincydave8

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Skeptical at first but looking through, I like the stadium itself. The 513 lighting will be an interesting game night feature. Also, it looks like they are generically branding it as "West End Stadium" until naming rights come through.

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Wishful thinking but is the glass ramp/aviary looking building located where the underground laggering tunnels are located? That could be a really cool space or more likely it's just a skylight into the parking garage. 

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34 minutes ago, seaswan said:

honestly they just need some trees in the new renderings

 

This would go a long way on the pedestrian scale side.

 

I'm not a fan of how close the stairs are to the sidewalk, from the rendering the sidewalk looks pretty narrow but that could just be the scale of how its drawn. Will be interesting to see more details when it goes to Planning Commission.

 

As for the exterior design I am not a huge fan. Cincinnati had an opportunity to do better and we blew it. We shouldn't be building civic buildings that we are compelled to hide amongst neighboring infill. Given enough time there is room for improvement after construction. I like the light patterns on the crown and the inside is nice. It get a C/C+ IMO.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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My biggest complaint is the base of the structure. I personally like the lighting and shape of the stadium. I've long argued that brick would look terrible because it's surrounded by such a huge, beautiful historic district. The brick just wouldn't compare and it would look out of place. I just think there is a lot of metallic silver siding type stuff that needs to be broken up.

 

I agree that trees would go a long way to making it more inviting and pedestrian friendly. Hopefully the parking lots at the northeast will be developed sooner rather than later. Parking lots are always a bummer. I also hope the stadium will acquire the 1-story warehouse buildings and cell tower on the southeast of the stadium and demo them. They could really utilize that space for a large plaza like they have at Sheakley Lawn right now outside of Nippert.

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It just looks too gray, all of it. Designing a building to look good at night only is a strange choice unless all their games are in the evening (are MLS games typically at night or afternoon?). There needs to be some color, some warmer materials, plantings, or literally anything to provide shade on the stairs and plaza facing east.

 

For as open and airy as the stadium itself is, the base is very heavy and opaque, almost brutalist, especially if everything on the base ends up as concrete as it appears to be. There isn't a floodplain to get out of so what's the point of having a base like that? Keeping above the riffraff?

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1 hour ago, Cincy513 said:

Yeah let's not build one of the nicest soccer stadiums in the country because some people don't like the way it looks from the outside 🙄

 

Do I love the way the exterior looks?  No.  Do I really care what the outside looks like?  No, I care about what the inside looks like.  The reason it's being built is to house soccer matches, not look good from the sidewalk.  This stadium looks like it's going to have a great atmosphere with the huge safe standing area for the bailey, the full bowl of seats and the roof covering fans from rain/keeping in the crowd noise.  That stuff is much more important to me as a fan then then what it looks like from the outside.  


This is a ludicrous argument. The way the inside looks doesn't affect the urban environment. Your argument is basically the same as the brutalist architects from decades ago that destroyed streetscapes with massive stark, blank walls. Beyond just that, the majority of people that see this thing from the outside are NEVER stepping foot inside. Do you think that the residents of West End that live in poverty are really attending FCC games? They have to deal with the adverse urban effects of this poorly designed stadium, but get none of the benefits that you've described.

I'll also add that the design of the stadium piece is nice as an object in my opinion. I like the way the fins break up the mass and make it appear light, while still holding the form of the overall massing. That being said, it really is only nice as an object or sculpture, not as a piece of urban design being integral to the overall health of the community. The amount of asphalt, open areas, and surface lots are appalling. Coupled with the fact that it still looks like a spaceship landed in a place it clearly doesn't belong, I don't see how anyone can ignore the poor design of the stadium. Some forumers seem satisfied that entities are finally developing big projects in the area, but that isn't all that matters. You can still have good design that will positively impact the urban environment. You don't have to choose between one or the other...

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4 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

It just looks too gray, all of it. Designing a building to look good at night only is a strange choice unless all their games are in the evening (are MLS games typically at night or afternoon?). There needs to be some color, some warmer materials, plantings, or literally anything to provide shade on the stairs and plaza facing east.

 

For as open and airy as the stadium itself is, the base is very heavy and opaque, almost brutalist, especially if everything on the base ends up as concrete as it appears to be. There isn't a floodplain to get out of so what's the point of having a base like that? Keeping above the riffraff?

There is going to be a parking garage below the stadium so I think that is the reason for the concrete base.  I agree though that it wouldn't hurt to have some of that concrete painted orange and blue to add some color.  Hopefully some signage, banners, ribbons or something is added to the steps and plaza area to also add some team colors and branding.  One thing I really hate about Paul Brown is that there is barely any Bengals signage or orange coloring outside the stadium.  You can barely tell it's the home of the Bengals when compared to how many Reds references there are outside GABP.  

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1 hour ago, Cincy513 said:

Do I really care what the outside looks like?  No, I care about what the inside looks like.

Many more people will see the outside, much more often. (People who are funding this thing with their tax dollars.) If Music Hall looked bad from the outside but great on the inside, Washington Park and OTR in general would be missing their centerpiece.

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2 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

Do I really care what the outside looks like?  No, I care about what the inside looks like.  The reason it's being built is to house soccer matches, not look good from the sidewalk.

 

Just because *you* don't care what the outside looks like, that doesn't make it not matter.  If this was in Mason in some cornfield, fine, but it's not.  Civics matter, especially so when you're a literal stone's throw from the largest historic district in the country. 

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How good a building looks will almost always be debatable. The negativity by some on this forum is not surprising. Meanwhile from what I'm seeing on Twitter and Reddit most people seem to love the building. PBS is always so interesting to me because it's won architecture awards yet tons of people hate the building. 

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Counterpoint....football stadiums in Paris, France.

spacer.png

 

Of course these while being completely different architecture than the surrounding buildings squeeze in because of the lack of parking obsession in Europe. 

Edited by cincydave8

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9 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

How good a building looks will almost always be debatable. The negativity by some on this forum is not surprising. Meanwhile from what I'm seeing on Twitter and Reddit most people seem to love the building. PBS is always so interesting to me because it's won architecture awards yet tons of people hate the building. 

 

I’ve also been reading comments on different sites and social media and it seems that most people love the design.

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FC Cincinnati reveals design plan for new stadium

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/07/16/fc-cincinnati-reveals-design-planfor-new-stadium.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

 

• A Grand Staircase (French steps) rising 30 feet from Central Parkway, with stairs 150 feet wide, to serve as a “regal entrance” into the stadium and give the fan’s supporters a dramatic entry into the stadium following their pregame supporters march.

• LED lighting on 513 vertical fins that form a wavelike external structure surrounding the stadium.

• A one-of-a-kind lighting feature on the fins that allows unique motion sequences to be shown on the east-facing façade.

• A 360-degree canopy roof covering all of the seats.

• The Mercy Health Plaza at the southeast corner of the stadium to provide community programming space.

• A total of 59 suites, including two-party suites and three field-level suites, the most in MLS for a soccer-specific venue. A total of 4,500 premium club seats.

• The Bailey, the team's designated supporters section behind one of the goals, will feature 3,100 seats where fans can stand safely. That section, twice the size of the current Bailey at Nippert Stadium, covers nearly the entire north end of the stadium.

 

The stadium won’t have a beer garden, a feature Berding suggested during the Business Courier Power Breakfast event April 30. “I do not expect there will be a public-facing beer hall baked into the walls of the stadium,” he said. But the team is working with commercial real estate developers to decide if a beer hall makes sense in the mixed-use developments surrounding the stadium.

 

Parking will be available in a variety of places. Hamilton County has committed to building a 1,000 parking spaces nearby. The team is building a 400-space garage on the east side of the stadium and building a surface lot on the west side that would hold about 100 vehicles. Berding also said a lot of fans arrive at games through ridesharing companies like Uber and Lyft. The team plans to create spaces so fans can easily find their ride home. And the stadium is two blocks away from a streetcar stop on Elm Street near Music Hall. “Our hope is that some folks will park at the Banks or under Fountain Square and take the streetcar up,” Berding said

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6 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

Parking will be available in a variety of places. Hamilton County has committed to building a 1,000 parking spaces nearby. The team is building a 400-space garage on the east side of the stadium and building a surface lot on the west side that would hold about 100 vehicles. Berding also said a lot of fans arrive at games through ridesharing companies like Uber and Lyft. The team plans to create spaces so fans can easily find their ride home. And the stadium is two blocks away from a streetcar stop on Elm Street near Music Hall. “Our hope is that some folks will park at the Banks or under Fountain Square and take the streetcar up,” Berding said

 

There is also a subway station.  

 

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27 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

How good a building looks will almost always be debatable. The negativity by some on this forum is not surprising. Meanwhile from what I'm seeing on Twitter and Reddit most people seem to love the building. PBS is always so interesting to me because it's won architecture awards yet tons of people hate the building. 

 

Yes, looks are debatable. But you're using a straw-man argument. Most aren't as concerned with the aesthetics of the design as they are with the way the design interfaces in the urban context. This is not at all a debatable or subjective issue. There are huge bodies of OBJECTIVE research and case studies that outline what does and doesn't work in urban design. Architecture is a meeting of art and science. While many of the artistic aspects are subjective, the science and research are not. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_planning_journals

 

The list linked above are all peer-reviewed journals. Feel free to hit up the public library and check some out. Then decide for yourself if all of urban design is subjective or debatable.

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A building can be pretty or ugly, it can win design awards or not, but that's independent of whether it's good urbanism or not.  In fact, the projects that win design awards are usually bad urbanism because they retreat from their surroundings in order to be an objet d'art in isolation. 

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6 minutes ago, Largue said:

 

Yes, looks are debatable. But you're using a straw-man argument. Most aren't as concerned with the aesthetics of the design as they are with the way the design interfaces in the urban context. This is not at all a debatable or subjective issue. There are huge bodies of OBJECTIVE research and case studies that outline what does and doesn't work in urban design. Architecture is a meeting of art and science. While many of the artistic aspects are subjective, the science and research are not. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_planning_journals

 

The list linked above are all peer-reviewed journals. Feel free to hit up the public library and check some out. Then decide for yourself if all of urban design is subjective or debatable.

Okey dokey. I minored in Urban and Community Planning in college, so I don't plan to hit up the library as you condescendingly stated. I never said it fits or doesn't fit the urban fabric. I just stated that a lot people seem like it, myself included. You do not, you've made that point quite clear. 

Edited by cincydave8

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6 hours ago, cincydave8 said:

Okey dokey. I minored in Urban and Community Planning in college, so I don't plan to hit up the library as you condescendingly stated. I never said it fits or doesn't fit the urban fabric. I just stated that a lot people seem like it, myself included. You do not, you've made that point quite clear. 

 
I thought I was still in the same argument as before with Cincy513. All these Cincy names are confusing me... My bad cincydave.

Edited by richNcincy
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These are beautiful renderings. One can only hope the overall design looks good 20 years from now. I love the central staircase, the glass looking indoor/outdoor beer hall restaurant. People will flock to this facility for the next 10 years. Maybe by then the city will declare the ballet barn derelict property and raze it. I hope everyone is aware that ballet doesn't actually put of shows at the ballet building as it stands. They practice there and it looks horrible. It reminds me of the movie Amadeus. The king declares no music and dancing at the same time. So Mozart shows him dancers without music. That is what the ballet building will look like once the stadium is up.

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49 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

Counterpoint....football stadiums in Paris, France.

spacer.png

 

Of course these while being completely different architecture than the surrounding buildings squeeze in because of the lack of parking obsession in Europe. 

 

The larger of the two stadiums is a disaster at street level.  It eschews the street grid and is surrounded by a fence with literal spikes on top.  It's also of gargantuan scale because of the huge ribs and gaping openness.  It doesn't seem like a building.  https://goo.gl/maps/nhZ59Kbjtm4rReqV6

 

The smaller stadium actually maintains some street walls and has doors and windows along its entire perimeter.  It's also of a scale similar to the buildings around it, and in fact is even a bit shorter.  It feels like a building.  https://goo.gl/maps/GbgH4ZVWCwV5nKCq5 

 

Which of these two would you want to live near, or walk next to?  https://goo.gl/maps/Ut5BPKwsQ3YwuiAW6 

 

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1 hour ago, RJohnson said:

Maybe by then the city will declare the ballet barn derelict property and raze it.

 

You're not a fan of personal property rights, I take it?

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9 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

You really think it changed that much?

 

image.png.dc7c61136345c05d2eda6cb0b5dba465.png

image.png.92484331291b68d365b043635f83ab9b.png

 

vs

 

image.png.8ff8f7b8bf3b7cbe53779ed5dfdb5cea.png

image.png.6ae2f1d98e8baa87a2851d18309bbbdd.png

 

 

I like the idea of the staircase, but it would be better if it ran the entire length of the front.

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18 hours ago, ucgrady said:

Wishful thinking but is the glass ramp/aviary looking building located where the underground laggering tunnels are located? That could be a really cool space or more likely it's just a skylight into the parking garage. 

Nope. Cellars are under the parking lot to the north.

 

 

FCCcellars.png

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It will help us remember the inspiring design of the Coliseum/US Bank Arena once that is demolished. 

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I'm actually most interested to see how the development around the site comes together.  That is what will activate this area of the West End/OTR. I imagine it will happen more quickly then the development between the stadiums at the Banks. It will be interesting to see how they design the development to wrap around the East and North sides of the stadium site. 

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I'm fairly happy with the changes and think it looks a lot better now (I'm also a fan of PBS' elements so YMMV on my takes, ha). I initially was a bit disappointed with the design, but as @ryanlammi pointed out—anything they would've done to make it look "old" or "blend in" with bricks, etc. would've just come off tacky and cheap. Hopefully once some of the development fills in, it'll blend in a bit better. Overall, I really like the "fins" as opposed to the orange blob originally envisioned.

 

Only things I don't particularly care for:

  • The Southeast corner originally had a cut out in the structure that allowed spectators inside to have a clear view of the skyline, it's now been replaced by a video screen. Although, this may have been for sound mitigation/Music Hall considerations and might've just come off as bland as GABP's "gap."
  • Minnesota has a really cool promenade/plaza with a retro scoreboard. So far, our interior doesn't seem to have any unique elements, but those may be revealed later.

As a season ticket holder in the current supporter section, I'm very happy that safe-standing is coming. The next steps I'm cautiously watching, though, are development and connectivity. Whatever gets built nearby needs to be useful and not look like Oakley Station or a Blue Ash strip mall. And while this may not all be on the club: the city needs to really connect this thing to other areas. Streetcar operations need to be tailored for matchday capacity; there are multiple bus routes nearby that need to be promoted as connecting with Clifton, Northside, the westside; the bike lane on CPKWY needs to be cleaned up to encourage cycling and red bikes, etc. Although, no matter who is mayor by then, I doubt any of them will be able to Google another city and take any interest in how any of that could work.

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FC Cincinnati’s Berding on new stadium’s premium seating: ‘We’re breaking the mold here’

 

FC Cincinnati’s new West End stadium will have more club seats and suites than any other Major League Soccer stadium that’s not an NFL venue, giving fans nearly four times as many premium club seating options as they have now.

 

The stadium will feature 4,500 club seats and 59 suites, including 54 traditional suites and five party and field-level suites. MLS averages about 2,000 club seats and suites numbering in the 20s, FC Cincinnati president Jeff Berding said Tuesday at a roundtable discussion after the team unveiled its design plans for the new $250 million, self-financed stadium. Los Angeles FC’s stadium that opened last season has 3,000 club seats, with suites numbering in the 30s. FC Cincinnati’s facility goes well beyond that.

 

“We’re breaking the mold here,” Berding said.

 

FC Cincinnati’s current Nippert Stadium home on the University of Cincinnati’s campus has about 1,200 club seats and about 20 suites, Berding said. It’s had waiting lists from the team’s first season in 2016.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/07/17/fc-cincinnati-s-berding-on-new-stadium-s-premium.html

 

screen-shot-2019-07-16-at-11.30.17%20AM.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Aside from making more money, the added suites help keep costs down for other tickets. One of their stated goals is to have one of the lowest price points in MLS (maybe not average, but median, at least). This would help achieve that goal without sacrificing spending levels on players, academies, facilities, etc.

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On 7/16/2019 at 1:23 PM, Cincy513 said:

Is that an aviary at center-right?  Or a marijuana grow operation?

 

If FC Cincy gets an aviary then I think the Bengals’ lease says they have to get one too. Thats how their lease works right......

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The underground area could be team offices. At Vivint Arena in SLC, they have all of their team offices below the main entrance steps. That could be the office lobby that you're seeing.

 

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On ‎7‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 9:38 AM, NsideProp said:

 

If FC Cincy gets an aviary then I think the Bengals’ lease says they have to get one too. Thats how their lease works right...…

 

Aviary?  Well, The Bengals did have The Bird Band:

 

I wasn't allowed to go to Bengals games when I was a kid.  Specifically, it was my grandma who didn't allow it, because of the "drunks" and the "foul language".  Around age 9 my dad took me to a game without her knowledge, and as grandma warned, the scene in the stands was...boorish.  But down at the end of the astroturf end zone was a corny old-guy band set up under what looked like a shipping container.  It was the fabled Bird Band.  

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