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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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2 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

I was just making a joke on the parking garages and surface lots proposed to be immediately surrounding FC Stadium, not the broader area.  Just like the French Quarter is near the stadiums, we have OTR right next door as well. They're tearing down nice and perfectly usable buildings to build surface parking lots... that's not acceptable.

 

It's still going to look nothing like that image you shared.

 

Also, I think those buildings had equal chance of being raised from pure neglect like a good amount of west end/otr buildings have been demolished.

 

We are what, almost 10 years into the revitalizion process for otr, and there are still abandoned blocks in South of liberty and large crime pockets. 

 

I highly doubt west end reinvestment would have magically kicked off, when south of liberty otr is still trying to find its footing at times.

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The West End would have started gentrifying a decade or more from now, I agree.  I also don't like Banks 2.0 tearing down good-looking buildings that are usable.  There's a number of casualties coming not from the stadium footprint, but the parking lot/development ring around it, that presumably will have your generic modern stuff pasted on top of the garages. They're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and if that doesn't work, well, they'll make the neighborhood conform to them (which they promised they wouldn't mess with).

 

EDIT: In looking at the packet again, most of the parking is over stuff that's a non-issue.  Everything in the plan so far seems to be okay.  The Bauer area (which has no plan yet) and the ridiculous request that the Central Pkwy and Liberty corner should be a county parking garage are my only issues so far.  That's prime real estate, what a waste.

Edited by 10albersa
Double-checking the packet

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Troy, I understand your point about West End redevelopment being a long ways off.  I agree with you when you are talking about the West End north of Liberty.  However, the West End south of Liberty has almost no Historic stock left.  It was mostly all demolished for Public housing, and the later, for City West.  The Wade/Bauer blocks are a small pocket where there are a few historic buildings, and the original street grid is still intact.  Someone had already restored a couple of the buildings on Wade into condos if I remember correctly.  

 

Considering that the MLS wanted this stadium here rather than Oakley because they want it to have a European feel, I am arguing that the Wade Bauer area north of the stadium is the way to do that.  I doubt anyone from FC reads this forum, but on the off chance they do, here is my Plea:   Do not turn Wade and Bauer into surface lots.  Partner with 3cdc or Model group or someone and restore the Historic buildings, and infill the vacant land.  You will have a gem of a small sub neighborhood right next to your stadium.

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If they decide to tear down the Ballet, they should do OTR-style infill on the existing Bauer street area and on the Ballet/TriState Wholesale lot build a small self-contained shopping area with a generic mixed-use builiding fronting Liberty/Central Pkwy, and shops/public space on the inner portions of that plot (like the outdoor section of Newport on the Levee).

 

Also, what is the plan with Central Ave?  On the planning packet, it shows it just dead-ending into the stadium, is it going under the stadium and connecting to the garage? If it does just end, why does it have stubs and not just dead end into 3-way intersections? It looks like FCC wants that road turned into a collector road for game day traffic... take that crap somewhere else.

Edited by 10albersa
Cenrral Ave

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4 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

Also, what is the plan with Central Ave?  On the planning packet, it shows it just dead-ending into the stadium, is it going under the stadium and connecting to the garage? If it does just end, why does it have stubs and not just dead end into 3-way intersections? It looks like FCC wants that road turned into a collector road for game day traffic... take that crap somewhere else.

 

I believe the field will be at street level, and there will be a drive so that vehicles can enter the stadium via Central Avenue underneath the upper level stands. Think of it like the ramp at the northwest corner of Nippert Stadium that allows large vehicles to enter the stadium.

 

I think the only location where vehicles could enter the stadium would be the south side from Central. I could definitely be wrong about this, but that's what I recall. I don't think it's supposed to be gameday traffic.

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3 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

I don't think it's supposed to be gameday traffic.

 

The packet shows the north side of Central Ave being turned into a collector for gameday traffic, not sure about the south side.

 

Another look shows the north Central Ave entrance is a plaza/vehicle entrance like the NW corner of Nippert, the south portion of Central dead-ends to a pedestrian entrance I think.

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If Wade and Bauer turn into surface lots I think they will only be temporary.  The teams lawyer broke the not surprising news that FCC wants to develop all the land between the stadium and Liberty.  

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16 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

If Wade and Bauer turn into surface lots I think they will only be temporary.  The teams lawyer broke the not surprising news that FCC wants to develop all the land between the stadium and Liberty.  

 

I think the idea of tearing down 100+ year old historic buildings for a temporary parking lot drives me and a lot of other people in this forum insane. The historic buildings should be saved and used as a guide to shape the rest of the infill development. 

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I have a friend who works with FCC and his position is what you would consider upper tier. 

 

What he has told me since FCC announced the West end location is that ownership wants to control the surrounding stadium property and create a FCC land of sorts with bars/resturaunts/shops/etc..

 

Ownership group is aware that their fanbase are from mason, west Chester other North suburbs and that they don't want the perceived notion of crime around otr/west end hurt attendence. 

 

Thus they want to create a FCC land bubble where people can park, shop eat, go to the game and drive off without having to be exposed to crime/poverty.

 

So don't be surprised to see a liberty center inspired development surround the stadium at some point.

 

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55 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

 

I think the idea of tearing down 100+ year old historic buildings for a temporary parking lot drives me and a lot of other people in this forum insane. The historic buildings should be saved and used as a guide to shape the rest of the infill development. 

 

Yeah they're totally shooting themselves in the foot.  Whatever they throw up isn't going to have the long-term appeal that it could have if they insisted on high-quality stuff that fits the context.  Instead we're going to see a Holiday Inn Express, Fuddrucker's, etc.  

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The only land they can really develop is between Wade to the south, Central to the East, John to the West and Liberty to the North.  Basically just two blocks.  Maybe they can do something to the south east of the stadium if they can acquire that land and the police district moves.  But Taft, Laurel playground and the housing west of John St aren't going anywhere.  So it's not exactly going to be some huge development, and it's definitely not going to completely surround the stadium.  

 

Also the fanbase already goes to Clifton for every game so lets calm down on the "don't want to be exposed to crime/poverty."  Clifton and its surrounding area isn't exactly a thriving neighborhood of upper class folks.  And while there are a lot of families from the northern burbs who go to games there are just as many millennial's who live within the city limits.  They're not going to lose any season tickets because of the stadium location, it's all about putting a quality team on the field.  

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21 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Yeah they're totally shooting themselves in the foot.  Whatever they throw up isn't going to have the long-term appeal that it could have if they insisted on high-quality stuff that fits the context.  Instead we're going to see a Holiday Inn Express, Fuddrucker's, etc.  

 

 

God who opens a new Fuddrucker's

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Put a stadium in the middle of a dense urban area and then surround it by parking garages and The Banks II so that fans can enjoy "the city" but "without having to be exposed to crime/poverty."

 

It would have made so much more sense to put this thing at Ovation where there is plenty of room for infill and the team would have gotten basically no pushback regarding gentrification.

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Just now, taestell said:

It would have made so much more sense to put this thing at Ovation where there is plenty of room for infill and the team would have gotten basically no pushback regarding gentrification.

 

Ovation was public housing up until about 2005.  It's only "gentrification" if it's in the City of Cincinnati,  

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Right, while we see article after article about gentrification in OTR (and now the West End), and yet no one seems to notice when gentrification happens in other parts of the region. Despite the fact that the vast majority of development in OTR has not resulted in direct displacement (most of the buildings were already vacant prior to being fixed up) while in Newport, public housing was literally demolished to make room for Ovation...but people have already forgotten about that.

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Jesus some of you are acting like they're taking a wrecking ball to blocks of historic buildings.  There are seriously like 7 buildings in the area we're talking about. 

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14 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

That's what they'll be saying about microbreweries in five years.  

 

 


That's what you were saying about microbreweries five years ago.

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4 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Jesus some of you are acting like they're taking a wrecking ball to blocks of historic buildings.  There are seriously like 7 buildings in the area we're talking about. 

 

They already tore down the old theater, two OTR-type buildings facing Central Ave., and a 2-family on Provident St.  They have designs on everything from the Ballet down to the Monster Buidling, and even District 1 Police HQ.  And you can bet that if Taft hadn't just been rebuilt in 2005 they'd be after it as well.  

 

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14 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

They already tore down the old theater, two OTR-type buildings facing Central Ave., and a 2-family on Provident St.  They have designs on everything from the Ballet down to the Monster Buidling, and even District 1 Police HQ.  And you can bet that if Taft hadn't just been rebuilt in 2005 they'd be after it as well.  

 

And we're getting what will end up being a $300+ million development from it.  Most people would consider that a win.  Some of you apparently would rather see a run down building stay just because it's really old.  This isn't OTR which is designated as a historic neighborhood.  West End has very little historic buildings thanks to the governments work decades ago.  If some buildings need to go to make way for a giant development, in an area that hasn't seen private development in decades, then so be it.  

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41 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Jesus some of you are acting like they're taking a wrecking ball to blocks of historic buildings.  There are seriously like 7 buildings in the area we're talking about. 

 

As was mentioned previously, if you keep these 7 buildings, and use them as the template for infill, you will end up with some quality architecture designed on a human scale.  FCC will have an awesome little two block area next to their stadium.  If you tear them all down, you will end up with bland car oriented garbage.

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25 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

And we're getting what will end up being a $300+ million development from it.  Most people would consider that a win.  Some of you apparently would rather see a run down building stay just because it's really old.  This isn't OTR which is designated as a historic neighborhood.  West End has very little historic buildings thanks to the governments work decades ago.  If some buildings need to go to make way for a giant development, in an area that hasn't seen private development in decades, then so be it. 

 

It's just a matter of answering the question: Is development good just because it is development?

 

Personally, I'd rather wait a while and have had the neighborhood remain mostly residential, with infill and some mixed use near the major arteries as individual developers move into the area.  The Home-arama plot and filling in the missing City West lots would have been a nice start.

Edited by 10albersa
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We have examples that prove that preserving historic buildings and integrating them with new infill works, right across Central Parkway from here. In an era where preserving buildings and leveraging historic assets has become the de facto development ethos, demolitions like this become more and more egregious. 

 

However look at what we have lost in the last few years: The Dennison, Hudepohl and a few others.

 

Both of these could have been leveraged to contribute to the growing success of Cincinnati. Instead they are missed opportunities. In city development there is often a compulsion to trade the better options for the slightly better options. When we muddle our potential, we squander our success.

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“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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9 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

a giant development

 

It's not big.  It'll be half the size of Nippert Stadium.  

 

It would be like if The Bengals moved from Paul Brown into Nippert.  

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57 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

They already tore down the old theater, two OTR-type buildings facing Central Ave., and a 2-family on Provident St.  They have designs on everything from the Ballet down to the Monster Buidling, and even District 1 Police HQ.  And you can bet that if Taft hadn't just been rebuilt in 2005 they'd be after it as well.  

 

 

I wouldn't put TAFT beyond them -- they are making it an unbearable place to try to teach and learn. The school board may have to move the school for the sake of the people who have to be inside it.

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47 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

If some buildings need to go to make way for a giant development, in an area that hasn't seen private development in decades, then so be it.  

 

This is the exact attitude that led to the demolition of the West End for Queensgate. Switch "private" with "public", and it's the exact attitude that led to even more demolition of the urban basin for I-75, I-71, Liberty St, public housing in the West End, etc. 

 

I am no fan of FCC or this project, but I will admit that I think once this whole stadium construction saga is over, this will represent a win for the urban basin. I don't like how FCC has continued to treat poor people and historic buildings as being expendable, and I think there is a whole lot of hubris coming from FCC, which I cannot stand. That said, IF the stadium can attract new housing and commercial development around it, jump-start (or accelerate) rehabilitation and infill development in the West End, and provide a nice business boost to bars and restaurants in OTR on game days, this will probably be worth it in the end. We shall see.

Edited by edale

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29 minutes ago, JYP said:

We have examples that prove that preserving historic buildings and integrating them with new infill works, right across Central Parkway from here. In an era where preserving buildings and leveraging historic assets has become the de facto development ethos, demolitions like this become more and more egregious. 

 

However look at what we have lost in the last few years: The Dennison, Hudepohl and a few others.

 

Both of these could have been leveraged to contribute to the growing success of Cincinnati. Instead they are missed opportunities. In city development there is often a compulsion to trade the better options for the slightly better options. When we muddle our potential, we squander our success.

 

I think you summed it up quite nicely, @JYP. I'm a fan and supporter of this team, but I will admit that the stadium saga has been a bit of a disappointment (reaching all the way back to the opposition of Newport). I'm no architect or urban planner, my "taste" in design is based solely on what I like, but I don't find the stadium too terribly off-putting for its environment. That being said, it's incredibly disappointing that no one seems to be learning the lessons of the past (in regards to both the West End and "urban renewal" as a whole). It's incredibly easy to say: "oh, it's just X buildings," but why should Cincinnati settle as it always does? Why not build a stadium better suited to the area? Why not integrate historical structures, etc. into surrounding development? These buildings and structures have stood the test of time. Liberty Center, Newport on the Levee, Kenwood, etc. wont.

In the end, the development will probably be a win, but Newport on the Levee and The Banks should be some hard lessons to look at. Because the people everyone thought would go to those spaces aren't there, they're in the neighborhood across the street from the new stadium. 

Also, @jmecklenborg, speak for yourself on Fuddruckers! It may be a chain, but that's a chain I will gladly welcome back to this market. Don't piss on my hamburger hopes. 

Edited by Gordon Bombay

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49 minutes ago, JYP said:

We have examples that prove that preserving historic buildings and integrating them with new infill works, right across Central Parkway from here. In an era where preserving buildings and leveraging historic assets has become the de facto development ethos, demolitions like this become more and more egregious. 

 

However look at what we have lost in the last few years: The Dennison, Hudepohl and a few others.

 

Both of these could have been leveraged to contribute to the growing success of Cincinnati. Instead they are missed opportunities. In city development there is often a compulsion to trade the better options for the slightly better options. When we muddle our potential, we squander our success.

 

Well put and I’ll add the following: for a variety of reasons we have forgotten how and do not build buildings that are human scale, have granular footprints, drive and support pedestrian activity, and incorporate elements that add up to “character” anymore. So if these historical buildings are razed wholesale whatever replaces them is likely to feel corporate, generic, and incapable of reinventing itself or providing sustained demand once the newness wears off. 

Edited by thebillshark

www.cincinnatiideas.com

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56 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

It's not big.  It'll be half the size of Nippert Stadium.  

 

It would be like if The Bengals moved from Paul Brown into Nippert.  

Nippert seats ~36,000.  Despite what they claim that place does not hold 40,000.  The new FCC stadium will be 26,000.  So just on seats alone it's not half the size.  On top of that the actual stadium is going to be bigger on a sf/seat measurement then Nippert because it won't be built tightly in the middle of a college campus.  I love watching games there but the bleachers and small concourses are terrible to deal with at crowded events.  I'm also including this two block future development in the total size of the project.  So this thing will end up being just as big if not bigger then Nippert in terms of how many acres it takes up. 

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2 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

The new FCC stadium will be 26,000.  

 

Will it?  The damn thing is under construction and we still haven't seen the final plans.  Berding has lied about absolutely everything so far, but let's start believing him now.  

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Will it?  The damn thing is under construction and we still haven't seen the final plans.  Berding has lied about absolutely everything so far, but let's start believing him now.  

 

 

 

 

Except we have, of course, seen plans for the stadium just not for the plan around the stadium. 

 

https://www.fccincinnati.com/west-end-stadium and https://www.meisarchitects.com/fc-cincinnati/mr4q386fpgviv7iq5hxqf4ao9iv1ja and even more detailed architecture plans have been posted previously in this thread. Stop letting your hatred for soccer and Jeff Berding warp the facts. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by cincydave8
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"my eyes, my eyes" screams Estelle Parsons with her first look at no matter what is put up at Liberty and Central Parkway. In this rendition of Bonnie and JMecklen

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4 hours ago, cincydave8 said:

 

Except we have, of course, seen plans for the stadium just not for the plan around the stadium. 

 

https://www.fccincinnati.com/west-end-stadium and https://www.meisarchitects.com/fc-cincinnati/mr4q386fpgviv7iq5hxqf4ao9iv1ja and even more detailed architecture plans have been posted previously in this thread. Stop letting your hatred for soccer and Jeff Berding warp the facts. 

 

 

Except, of course, Meis was mysteriously replaced as the architect for this stadium, remember? The fact that FCC fired this firm months ago, but continues to use its plans and renderings on its website is telling. They also include images showing the orange wrapping on the stadium, which Berding said would no longer be used. Ultimately, it appears we still have not seen final plans or renderings for this stadium.

 

I would contend your fandom is getting in the way of seeing how ridiculously poor FCC has handled this stadium situation from day 1. As a project that is receiving public subsidy and requiring the relocation of residents, the public has every right to know what is getting built, how it will look, how the light and noise will impact its surroundings. 

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24 minutes ago, edale said:

 

Except, of course, Meis was mysteriously replaced as the architect for this stadium, remember? The fact that FCC fired this firm months ago, but continues to use its plans and renderings on its website is telling. They also include images showing the orange wrapping on the stadium, which Berding said would no longer be used. Ultimately, it appears we still have not seen final plans or renderings for this stadium.

 

Also there was talk about future expandability that we haven’t heard anything further on that since the Music Hall noise issue came out. Is this still being designed into the plans? For example the employee lot to the west between the stadium and John Street looks like it could possibly accommodate expansion? That means they would have to break up the circular canopy though. 


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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12 hours ago, edale said:

 

Except, of course, Meis was mysteriously replaced as the architect for this stadium, remember? The fact that FCC fired this firm months ago, but continues to use its plans and renderings on its website is telling. They also include images showing the orange wrapping on the stadium, which Berding said would no longer be used. Ultimately, it appears we still have not seen final plans or renderings for this stadium.

 

I would contend your fandom is getting in the way of seeing how ridiculously poor FCC has handled this stadium situation from day 1. As a project that is receiving public subsidy and requiring the relocation of residents, the public has every right to know what is getting built, how it will look, how the light and noise will impact its surroundings. 

 

I would contend that you're making broad brush strokes. I'm not defending what FCC has done, they clearly could have handled this whole saga better and I have previously posted that I think Jeff Berding just needs to shut his mouth. I'm just pointing out that Jake acted like we haven't seen stadium plans but we have from multiple sources and have been posted in this thread. We have NOT seen plans for the site around the stadium. I too will be disappointed if it's just parking garages. Too many people want to make this black and white on whether or not your support the stadium or not. Of course it's not that simple and people should stick to the facts regardless of beliefs. The stadium design may have few more minor changes as all stadium plans do but the basic look, layout and seating capacity has long been established which is the point I was making. 

 

The bottom line is there are posters on this forum will hate FCC no matter what they do, even if the final plans had been posted and were an urbanist dream come true some posters would still stomp their feet and complain. Their are also plenty of supporters, not so much on this forum that I've seen, that will support FCC no matter what including supporting scrapping the Liberty Street diet. Both of these type of people add nothing to a civil debate or discourse on what our city should be. 

Edited by cincydave8

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12 hours ago, cincydave8 said:

The bottom line is there are posters on this forum will hate FCC no matter what they do, even if the final plans had been posted and were an urbanist dream come true some posters would still stomp their feet and complain. Their are also plenty of supporters, not so much on this forum that I've seen, that will support FCC no matter what including supporting scrapping the Liberty Street diet. Both of these type of people add nothing to a civil debate or discourse on what our city should be.

 

This isn't true at all, I attend some FCC games and watch about half of them on TV.  I used to be all-in on what this team was doing before the stadium debacle.  Then they picked the West End, then they continued to stumble through negotiations with the WECC and didn't consider Newport even though it had to be a million times more attractive from a money standpoint, then they oversold the fact that the city/county got a good deal, then they got s****y when residents and businesses that were getting displaced were asking for help and money.  

 

The Liberty St "diet" amendments and out-of-place design are the least important parts to me.  Mgmt has been bad at just about every turn.  You know what solves all of the above?  Newport....  But god-forbid Lindner invest any money across the river, or that FC Cincinnati isn't located in Cincinnati proper.

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12 hours ago, edale said:

 

Except, of course, Meis was mysteriously replaced as the architect for this stadium, remember? The fact that FCC fired this firm months ago, but continues to use its plans and renderings on its website is telling. They also include images showing the orange wrapping on the stadium, which Berding said would no longer be used. Ultimately, it appears we still have not seen final plans or renderings for this stadium.

 

I would contend your fandom is getting in the way of seeing how ridiculously poor FCC has handled this stadium situation from day 1. As a project that is receiving public subsidy and requiring the relocation of residents, the public has every right to know what is getting built, how it will look, how the light and noise will impact its surroundings. 

They announced two months ago the stadium would still have the orange glow but less then the original rendering.  

 

"And yes, the orange glow remains – but in ribbons rather than a full wrap around the bowl-shaped stadium"

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/03/new-renderings-fc-cincinnati-stadium-show-every-seat-covered-protective-canopy/3347495002/

 

It's way too late in the process to make major changes to the stadium design.  They can make further tweaks or minor changes but there isn't really time for large changes to the stadium structure/layout.  What you see in that articles pictures is likely very close to what it's going to end up looking like.  It's rumored Meis was fired because they didn't think they could make the MLS deadline of having the stadium open in spring of 2021.  Honestly I'm questioning if it gets completed by then as well.  I wouldn't be shocked if we end up with a situation like Portland this year.  They had to play their first 3 months on the road while they waited for their stadium addition to be completed.  I'm sure FCC is doing whatever they can to have it ready for March of 2021 but I'll feel better when we start seeing it come out of the ground.  

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1 minute ago, Cincy513 said:

They announced two months ago the stadium would still have the orange glow but less then the original rendering.  

 

"And yes, the orange glow remains – but in ribbons rather than a full wrap around the bowl-shaped stadium"

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/03/new-renderings-fc-cincinnati-stadium-show-every-seat-covered-protective-canopy/3347495002/

 

It's way too late in the process to make major changes to the stadium design.  They can make further tweaks or minor changes but there isn't really time for large changes to the stadium structure/layout.  What you see in that articles pictures is likely very close to what it's going to end up looking like.  It's rumored Meis was fired because they didn't think they could make the MLS deadline of having the stadium open in spring of 2021.  Honestly I'm questioning if it gets completed by then as well.  I wouldn't be shocked if we end up with a situation like Portland this year.  They had to play their first 3 months on the road while they waited for their stadium addition to be completed.  I'm sure FCC is doing whatever they can to have it ready for March of 2021 but I'll feel better when we start seeing it come out of the ground.  

 

Odds are they would just play a few matches in Nippert if needed. I don't see any way this gets done by the start of the 2021 season but maybe they'll prove me wrong.

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30 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

 

This isn't true at all, I attend some FCC games and watch about half of them on TV.  I used to be all-in on what this team was doing before the stadium debacle.  Then they picked the West End, then they continued to stumble through negotiations with the WECC and didn't consider Newport even though it had to be a million times more attractive from a money standpoint, then they oversold the fact that the city/county got a good deal, then they got shitty when residents and businesses that were getting displaced were asking for help and money.  

 

The Liberty St "diet" amendments and out-of-place design are the least important parts to me.  Mgmt has been bad at just about every turn.  You know what solves all of the above?  Newport....  But god-forbid Lindner invest any money across the river, or that FC Cincinnati isn't located in Cincinnati proper.

 

Yes, we're all aware of what has happened. I was just trying to say there are very strong opinions on this issue and some people will dislike FCC regardless of what happens while some people will support everything FCC has done. I'm a fan of the team but realize this process has been bad and clearly FCC has done things wrong or at least could have handled it better. 

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