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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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24 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I don't understand why Carl Lindner, Jr. bought the Reds off of Marge Schott and then turned around and sold the team to Bob Castellini when the team was valued at $270 million, unless he needed the cash for his other ventures, i.e. Queen City Square.  If Carl Jr. hadn't sold in 2005, Carl Lindner III would own 51% of the Reds, who are now valued at over $1 billion.  

 

Instead he's throwing $250 million at this team, which is hardly generating any revenue, and nobody knows if MLS teams will become profitable or more valuable over time.  The bottom line is that they'd be WAY ahead if they had just held onto their majority stake in The Reds.  

 

You don't know what they did with their Reds money they cashed out, so you can't really say they definitively made a bad investment decision.

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There's virtually no way the father-son duo is ahead.  From what I can ascertain, Carl Lindner Jr. pocketed a $70-80~ million profit when he sold The Reds.  He purchased the controlling stake from Marge Schott for $67 million and sold that same 51% stake in 2005 when the team was valued at roughly $270 million, or $137 million.

 

If he were to have passed the team down to his sons, that same 51% would have been worth over $500 million by the time FC Cincinnati was founded.  Since that founding, Carl Lindner, III has paid a $150 million franchise fee and is now obligated to spend $250 million on a stadium, plus $30 million for the practice facility.  

 

So $500 million vs. -$430 million is almost a $1 billion difference.   

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If you don't expect return from something (and you shouldn't from a sports team) you're probably not going to get it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

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4 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

If you don't expect return from something (and you shouldn't from a sports team) you're probably not going to get it. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

 

You've got to wonder if the Lindner boys were pissed when daddy sold off the Reds, and how much that motivated III's soccer venture. 

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4 hours ago, edale said:

 

I'm curious to know what business interests and holdings Lindner and the Farmers have outside of the core businesses in Cincinnati. Not necessarily doubting you, but honestly curious. IMO, the Lindners and Farmers and Co. are pretty much tied to Cincinnati, because their name carries weight there, and they are basically treated like royalty. That's the reason Lindner is so pissed and 'hurt' by the small road bumps he's experiencing with this MLS stadium. He's a Lindner, and therefore he should be given carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants. If the Lindners moved to New York or LA they would be small potatoes, and their name wouldn't get them much of anything.

 

I went to school with multiple Lindner and Farmer kids, and I don't think these people are inherently bad or anything. They do invest in the community, and they have created many jobs in the region. I believe they want what is best for the region, and they want to see it succeed. But they need Cincinnati just as bad as Cincinnati needs them. P&G could basically pick and move to any number of cities in the world, and not really be affected. Not the case for the Lindner owned companies. 

AFG has numerous subsidiaries in the insurance side as well as the family has a number of joint ventures in other financial insurance based businesses around the country. They may not have majority ownership in all of it but they have significant influence. I believe they have an insurance company in the Cleveland area (Richfield) if I remember correctly. They used to have a bunch of hotel holdings all over the country that they sold off recently. Point being while their major business is AFG, there are always going to be much smaller ventures or ventures they are associated with that are quiet.

 

The Farmers have other business interests too. It is about diversification. They have family offices that often invest in smaller but mid market companies to hold. These are private companies but together often make a decent portfolio. Not saying I know exactly what they are, but most families of such wealth often employ these diversification strategies.

 

I don't get the saying where Lindner needs the city?? Yes, they are from here and built their empire based here, but many of the companies they owned had no Cincinnati connection. Great American Insurance was a California Company, Taft Broadcasting while Cincinnati has significant Hollywood interests, Penn central, Chiquita amongst others had no Cincinnati connection before Lindners brought them all here, and they did not necessarily have to do so.

Edited by Brutus_buckeye

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Carl Jr only bought the Reds because no one else local would and they were scared an outsider could move the team. I think once Castellini expressed interest Jr was happy to sell it to someone else local. Despite his wealth he never spent much money on the team as owner. Not to mention passing a sports franchise down to your kids cost a lot of money in taxes. 

 

The family still holds a minority ownership stake in the team though so that smaller share has obviously gone up a lot in value. 

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FC Cincinnati, West End tenants strike a deal; council approves measures for stadium

 

After a long day of negotiations, FC Cincinnati and tenants of West End property owned by the club agreed to terms Thursday on the residents’ status, and Cincinnati City Council unanimously passed a set of ordinances allowing the club to continue construction of its stadium.

 

But the details of the FCC-tenant deal were sparse, with FCC representatives asking the tenants at 421 Wade St. and 1550 Central Ave. to keep the fine print secret. FCC did disclose that the tenants would have longer to move than a Friday deadline imposed by the team and that they would be provided some amount of moving assistance.

 

“We’re pleased to report that we have reached a deal with the tenants. The sweat equity appears to have paid off,” said Tom Tepe, one of several attorneys for the team.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/05/30/fc-cincinnati-west-end-tenants-strike-adeal.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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3 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

Carl Jr only bought the Reds because no one else local would and they were scared an outsider could move the team.

 

I always suspected that the Cincinnati blue bloods sprung a trap on Marge Schott.  She walked right into it like Mary Queen of Scotts. 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I always suspected that the Cincinnati blue bloods sprung a trap on Marge Schott.  She walked right into it like Mary Queen of Scotts. 

 

 

 

 

 

You are correct, my grandparents use to have a small percentage ownership in the team back in the 80's and early 90's. They both loved Marge, but they were the minority in the ownership group. I remember both of my grandparents saying everything they did to her was completely wrong and unethical. Remember the blue bloods controlled the media and still do. They made a massive situation out of Marge's choice of words. In the end they created a massive amount of drama that forced her out. What she said was wrong and i dont condone it but anyone else would have just gotten a slap on the wrist.  

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Opening car dealerships and trucking companies created a lot of new money mid-century. By the time you get to the 2000s though a lot of those people became Old Money.

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1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

Opening car dealerships and trucking companies created a lot of new money mid-century. By the time you get to the 2000s though a lot of those people became Old Money.

 

Actually her husband's family made a lot of money before the car dealerships.  It is rumored that the Schotts did business with German companies under the Nazi regime.  That was before Marge married into the family, however.  

 

More recently, the Lindner-owned Chiquita Bananas was found to be involved in all sorts of illegal activity in Central America, but that was all swept under the rug. 

 

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So are the Cincy ballet moving? Curious why the FCC lawyer said they will build new mixed use development on the corner of liberty and Wade, where the ballet currently is, if the ballet wasn't close to nailing down a new location. 

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3 hours ago, savadams13 said:

You are correct, my grandparents use to have a small percentage ownership in the team back in the 80's and early 90's. They both loved Marge, but they were the minority in the ownership group. I remember both of my grandparents saying everything they did to her was completely wrong and unethical. Remember the blue bloods controlled the media and still do. They made a massive situation out of Marge's choice of words. In the end they created a massive amount of drama that forced her out. What she said was wrong and i dont condone it but anyone else would have just gotten a slap on the wrist.  

 

nah, sorry, but that's BS. She was racist, homophobic, anti-Semetic...an utter embarrassment. She repeatedly used the N word, said fu**ing Hitler just 'went too far', talked about sneaky, untrustworthy Jews...do we need to go on? Why are we defending an old curmudgeon who was, by nearly all accounts, an awful person?

 

1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Actually her husband's family made a lot of money before the car dealerships.  It is rumored that the Schotts did business with German companies under the Nazi regime.  That was before Marge married into the family, however.  

 

More recently, the Lindner-owned Chiquita Bananas was found to be involved in all sorts of illegal activity in Central America, but that was all swept under the rug. 

 

 

Aha! That explains the infamous Hitler quote...

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

So are the Cincy ballet moving? Curious why the FCC lawyer said they will build new mixed use development on the corner of liberty and Wade, where the ballet currently is, if the ballet wasn't close to nailing down a new location. 

They will eventually move. I’m sure FCC is trying to get them out ASAP. They are more than likely helping them find and footing some of the bill for a new spot. The thing that irks me is the amount of negativity the west end spot is getting. Most of the spots they are getting for the stadium are either parking lots, abandoned buildings and a high school football field. Yes some people were displaced but it’s not like they decided to build right in the middle of public housing. 

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Just now, edale said:

 

nah, sorry, but that's BS. She was racist, homophobic, anti-Semetic...an utter embarrassment. She repeatedly used the N word, said fu**ing Hitler just 'went too far', talked about sneaky, untrustworthy Jews...do we need to go on? Why are we defending an old curmudgeon who was, by nearly all accounts, an awful person?

 

 

Aha! That explains the infamous Hitler quote...

 

 

"He did some wonderful things... for my bank account!"

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17 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

There's virtually no way the father-son duo is ahead.  From what I can ascertain, Carl Lindner Jr. pocketed a $70-80~ million profit when he sold The Reds.  He purchased the controlling stake from Marge Schott for $67 million and sold that same 51% stake in 2005 when the team was valued at roughly $270 million, or $137 million.

 

If he were to have passed the team down to his sons, that same 51% would have been worth over $500 million by the time FC Cincinnati was founded.  Since that founding, Carl Lindner, III has paid a $150 million franchise fee and is now obligated to spend $250 million on a stadium, plus $30 million for the practice facility.  

 

So $500 million vs. -$430 million is almost a $1 billion difference.   

 

The Lindner's finances is 100% not my business, but you have to know Carl didn't pay the $150 million franchise fee and $250 million for the stadium by himself. He/the Lindner family is just one (albeit major) part of the FCC ownership group. There are all sorts of assumptions going on in this post, and without being privy to their bank statements, it's probably best to not speculate on things that are, again, none of our business.

 

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1 hour ago, edale said:

 

The Lindner's finances is 100% not my business, but you have to know Carl didn't pay the $150 million franchise fee and $250 million for the stadium by himself. He/the Lindner family is just one (albeit major) part of the FCC ownership group. There are all sorts of assumptions going on in this post, and without being privy to their bank statements, it's probably best to not speculate on things that are, again, none of our business.

 

 

If you apply for financial aid at a college, your parents have to disclose their income.  The heir to a billion-dollar fortune just got substantial financial aid from Cincinnati and CPS taxpayers.  Not only did they get $30 million, partly out of the city's emergency fund, they are getting tons of public land for free.  Cincinnati Police parking lot for free.  Vacated Central Ave. and other streets and alleys for free.  

 

When I got a first-time homeowner grant I had to turn over two years of my IRS filings.  Carl Lindner III just got upwards if not more than $50 million.  He didn't have to apply for it -- he simply demanded it.  

 

Must be nice.   

 

 

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If Cranley empties the rainy day fund it's perfectly fine, but if any non-DINO Democrat empties one they might as well have dropped a nuke on a nunnery.

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2 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

They will eventually move. I’m sure FCC is trying to get them out ASAP. They are more than likely helping them find and footing some of the bill for a new spot. The thing that irks me is the amount of negativity the west end spot is getting. Most of the spots they are getting for the stadium are either parking lots, abandoned buildings and a high school football field. Yes some people were displaced but it’s not like they decided to build right in the middle of public housing. 

 

Wasn't the ovation site in Newport previously all public housing? Surprised at the various levels of scruitiny at play here. 

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2 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Wasn't the ovation site in Newport previously all public housing? Surprised at the various levels of scruitiny at play here. 

 

It was already gone when FC started considering that site, and people have short memories. Plus, it is on the other side of the river so for some Cincinnatians it might as well be the other side of the world. 

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18 minutes ago, troeros said:

Wasn't the ovation site in Newport previously all public housing? Surprised at the various levels of scruitiny at play here. 

 

Right, it all ties into the narrative that Kentucky can do no wrong but everything Cincinnati does is bad. No one remembers or cares that public housing was demolished for the Ovation site or that the Kentucky Route 9 project was intentionally over-engineered to displace even more public housing.

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16 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

Right, it all ties into the narrative that Kentucky can do no wrong but everything Cincinnati does is bad. No one remembers or cares that public housing was demolished for the Ovation site or that the Kentucky Route 9 project was intentionally over-engineered to displace even more public housing.

 

...and that's one of the reasons why I sold my land near the stadium. I'm worried that they will use the suddenly-necessary widening of tiny Bauer Ave. to take the three properties that are still owner-occupied.  Those people will get less money under that scenario vs. selling now.  Plus the team gets the city to vacate Bauer Ave. and so they get more land for free.  

 

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1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

If you apply for financial aid at a college, your parents have to disclose their income.  The heir to a billion-dollar fortune just got substantial financial aid from Cincinnati and CPS taxpayers.  Not only did they get $30 million, partly out of the city's emergency fund, they are getting tons of public land for free.  Cincinnati Police parking lot for free.  Vacated Central Ave. and other streets and alleys for free.  

 

When I got a first-time homeowner grant I had to turn over two years of my IRS filings.  Carl Lindner III just got upwards if not more than $50 million.  He didn't have to apply for it -- he simply demanded it.  

 

Must be nice.   

 

 

 

I get it. I've repeatedly said it's absurd to give subsidies and assistance to billionaires who will undoubtedly make lots more money off this development. It's totally fair to talk about the Lindner's wealth in the discussion over public subsidy for this project. I just don't think it's productive to have ill-informed conversations about how much money they've gained or lost through various business deals. None of us have any clue about the amount that Carl Lindner III personally paid toward the expansion fee or the stadium construction. No clue at all. We also have no clue how much money was gained or lost by selling the Reds to Castellini. It's just conjecture based on very little information.

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39 minutes ago, NsideProp said:

Should we even click on it?

 

To borrow a quote from poster Neilworms, "Cincinnatians don't understand gentrification". 

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23 hours ago, oakiehigh said:

West End church sells to FC Cincinnati; FCC will help it relocate

 

https://local12.com/news/local/west-end-church-sells-to-fc-cincinnati-fcc-will-help-it-relocate

 

I saw on one of the preservation FB pages I follow that this church dates back before 1869, and was originally a synagogue back when the West End was the heart of Cincinnati's Jewish population. No doubt FCC plans on demolishing it. 

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It would be neat if they demolished all the annexes added over the years and built the block up around the original structure.   Highly doubt that will happen though.

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33 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said:

Forgive me as I did not read the full report from the planning commission, but the most recent packet looks to suggest (but not surprising) that the stadium will be completely surrounded by parking garages.

 

https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/jun-14-2019-packet/

I believe the east side garage is only going to be a couple levels underground.  On top of it will the the stadium plaza and the one big future development space.  The west side of the stadium is just going to have a small surface lot probably for team employees and maybe suite/premium seat holders.  They do show the county garage where the ballet currently is.  If that's where they want it it's not going to get built anytime soon.  

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Concerning FC buying up as many properties as it can on Wade and Bauer; I believe they have huge potential there to create what the Banks could have been.  True mixed use Urban without terrible architecture.  They can call it FC Village or something.   Keep the Historic buildings, tear down the single story cinder block crap, replace with new 4 story infill, first floor retail, residence on top.  I know they want to build a giant parking structure on the block that is the Tri-State building/Ballet, but if they would incorporate that into this FC Village concept, that would go a long way towards making this whole site far incorporated into the surrounding area.    I know this is pie in the sky and they will probably just tear as much down for parking as they can, but I can dream.

 

Also, I am still amazed they have not bought out the cell tower or whatever that is.  That thing is going to stick out like a sore thumb right in front of the stadium.  

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7 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

Concerning FC buying up as many properties as it can on Wade and Bauer; I believe they have huge potential there to create what the Banks could have been.  True mixed use Urban without terrible architecture.  They can call it FC Village or something.   Keep the Historic buildings, tear down the single story cinder block crap, replace with new 4 story infill, first floor retail, residence on top.  I know they want to build a giant parking structure on the block that is the Tri-State building/Ballet, but if they would incorporate that into this FC Village concept, that would go a long way towards making this whole site far incorporated into the surrounding area.    I know this is pie in the sky and they will probably just tear as much down for parking as they can, but I can dream.

 

Also, I am still amazed they have not bought out the cell tower or whatever that is.  That thing is going to stick out like a sore thumb right in front of the stadium.  

Planning Commission informed us that the cell company won't sell. (Yet?) They did upgrades to it in recent months too.

As for Wade Street historic buildings - Berding has admitted the plan is to tear down and build a parking lot.

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1 hour ago, JoeHarmon said:

 

Also, I am still amazed they have not bought out the cell tower or whatever that is.  That thing is going to stick out like a sore thumb right in front of the stadium.  

 

Good.  Hold out and get as much out of this guy who inherited a billion as you can. 

 

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31 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

I've peered into the future and specifically made sure to visit the West End, it looks a little like this:

pic.thumb.PNG.6c59c5095289c72aa8b4c0a3620b4ee4.PNG

 

That image needs to be posted anytime someone claims that stadiums spur development. You have an NFL stadium and an NBA arena, and it’s one of the deadest parts of New Orleans. 

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2 hours ago, edale said:

 

That image needs to be posted anytime someone claims that stadiums spur development. You have an NFL stadium and an NBA arena, and it’s one of the deadest parts of New Orleans. 

Not saying I disagree with your premise but one of the most popular entertainment districts in the entire world is a few blocks away from here.  It would be really stupid for anyone to try to open a bar or restaurant right by the stadium/arena when everyone just goes to the french quarter before and after games.  

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I was just making a joke on the parking garages and surface lots proposed to be immediately surrounding FC Stadium, not the broader area.  Just like the French Quarter is near the stadiums, we have OTR right next door as well. They're tearing down nice and perfectly usable buildings to build surface parking lots... that's not acceptable.

 

 

Edited by 10albersa
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