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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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55 minutes ago, taestell said:

I would have considered eventually selling my condo in OTR and moving into a single-family home in the West End where things were a little quieter but you're still a short walk to all of the things in OTR and Downtown. But now that the stadium is there, I wouldn't consider living there. I don't want a stadium in my back yard.

 

The West End is a big neighborhood. You could still purchase a place on Baymiller, York, Findlay, Dayton, Freeman, Colerain, Clark, Chestnut, etc and be very marginally impacted by the stadium. The homes right around the stadium (mainly bounded by Liberty, Ezzard Charles, and Linn) are obviously a different story.

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Hopefully they carve out some space for retail storefronts that face the sidewalk when they inevitably build parking garages.

Honestly, I am more concerned with the long term life of the Choremonster building https://goo.gl/maps/1GTTSJYG49Zc2R277 and the renovation of this old theater on Linn and Clark streets https://goo.gl/maps/v9cr48JUPmiM6oFS9 than lackluster normcore architecture.

Generally speaking large stadiums and arenas dont spark too much investment and development.  As its been mentioned recently on this forum, see The Banks as an example. 

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1 hour ago, thebillshark said:

 

Was just about to chime in with this. And this general real estate inflation will be mislabeled “gentrification” in a lot of places. It’s the gentrification of everywhere- enough to make the term meaningless. 

 

It's all about lending.  It's once again easy to get a mortgage.  Never mind Quicken and the big banks -- even the credit unions are once again hawking mortgages.  

 

Meanwhile, the banks are still hesitant to lend to developers in the way they did pre-crash.  That's why big spec condo projects are rare along with big suburban subdivisions.  The ones that do go up are private equity deals, so they're rarer.  

 

With suburban construction stunted by difficult lending, the post-crash years have been a boon for first-ring neighborhoods nationwide.  

 

 

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6 minutes ago, NsideProp said:

Hopefully they carve out some space for retail storefronts that face the sidewalk when they inevitably build parking garages.

Honestly, I am more concerned with the long term life of the Choremonster building https://goo.gl/maps/1GTTSJYG49Zc2R277 and the renovation of this old theater on Linn and Clark streets https://goo.gl/maps/v9cr48JUPmiM6oFS9 than lackluster normcore architecture.

Generally speaking large stadiums and arenas dont spark too much investment and development.  As its been mentioned recently on this forum, see The Banks as an example. 

 

 

Yea, Both of those are gems in their own way, I just hope those at FCC don't let their egos be hurt by having at least ONE neighbor they dont own in their bubble as it relates to the Choremonster building.  I think it is cool to have a big industrial sized building next door and wish there were more but i can see someone asking why such an eyesore is blocking the chances of having a clear photo of their shiny new stadium and music hall in the same image.

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1 hour ago, JYP said:

The problem with the stadium is that it will change the intensity and programming of the West End's revitalization. Where we may have seen a more organic emergence of business and activity, we will now see more "top-down" style master plan redevelopment and programming more oriented towards entertainment and FC. 

 

This is what the soccer bros want.  They don't want stuff that is locally owned and not-slick.  They want hedge-fund honky tonks, like Nashville.  

 

Overwhelmingly, the American consumer wants the appearance of authenticity, but is scared of the real thing.  

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6 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

This is what the soccer bros want.  They don't want stuff that is locally owned and not-slick.  They want hedge-fund honky tonks, like Nashville.  

 

Overwhelmingly, the American consumer wants the appearance of authenticity, but is scared of the real thing.  

 

I don't know what a soccer bro is other a disparaging term for millennial soccer fan but you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. All the FCC fans I know would much rather have small local owned business and restaurants than whatever you seem to be implying, that's why so many FCC fans wanted the stadium in the West End for the access to all the local bars in OTR. 

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^I think what jake was stating hyperbolically was that a lot of things wind up being hipster-lite which is currently the dominant culture among under-40 Caucasian urban users in the Midwest. Things that are full-on hipster would be indeed too much.

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32 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

This is what the soccer bros want.  They don't want stuff that is locally owned and not-slick.  They want hedge-fund honky tonks, like Nashville.  

 

Overwhelmingly, the American consumer wants the appearance of authenticity, but is scared of the real thing.  

The vast majority of the "soccer bros" go out in OTR before and after games.  So no I don't think they want Nashville like bars.  Maybe stop generalizing an an entire fanbase that you clearly don't know much about.  

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1 hour ago, NsideProp said:

Hopefully they carve out some space for retail storefronts that face the sidewalk when they inevitably build parking garages.

Honestly, I am more concerned with the long term life of the Choremonster building https://goo.gl/maps/1GTTSJYG49Zc2R277 and the renovation of this old theater on Linn and Clark streets https://goo.gl/maps/v9cr48JUPmiM6oFS9 than lackluster normcore architecture.

Generally speaking large stadiums and arenas dont spark too much investment and development.  As its been mentioned recently on this forum, see The Banks as an example. 

 

I agree that generally speaking stadiums are not good economic development tools, but I'm not so sure the Banks is a good example. People here love to hate the Banks but it is one of the most successful urban neighborhoods in the city and without it we'd still have one of the worst river fronts in the country. The buildings are uninspiring for sure but there are lots of people living in those buildings and the bars and restaurants do amazing business on the weekends and now even during the week. It's become a round the clock neighborhood and it would be even better if the city/county/business community got out of their own way and finally finished building it. 

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Does anyone knows if they ever plan on building a northbound I-75 Exit ramp for Ezzard Charles or Liberty Street? Currently when coming from Kentucky you either exit downtown or on 50 West. If you miss those exits your next option is Hopple Street. As a West End resident I understand the 50 West exit, but it can be quiet a challenge for those not familiar. 

However.. I do appreciate that not having this exit ramp probably reduces the amount of traffic flying down Ezzard Charles.

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After the Brent Spence Bridge project is complete, yes, there will be access from I-75 North to the Ezzard Charles/Liberty exit. However, drivers will have to decide when they're coming down the Cut In The Hill to get on the "local" lanes that will cross the existing bridge and offer access to FWW, 5th Street, and Ezzard Charles. If they accidentally get into the "express" lanes they will go across the new bridge and not be able to exit until the Western Hills Viaduct. (The express and local lanes merge back together after Ezzard Charles.)

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10 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I agree that generally speaking stadiums are not good economic development tools, but I'm not so sure the Banks is a good example. People here love to hate the Banks but it is one of the most successful urban neighborhoods in the city and without it we'd still have one of the worst river fronts in the country. The buildings are uninspiring for sure but there are lots of people living in those buildings and the bars and restaurants do amazing business on the weekends and now even during the week. It's become a round the clock neighborhood and it would be even better if the city/county/business community got out of their own way and finally finished building it. 

 

If you look at most stadiums around the country they are typically surrounded by surface parking and isolated from other parts of the city. There are a few examples where redevelopment has occurred or the stadium has been more thoroughly integrated into the surrounding city's fabric.

 

When it comes to the Banks though, it is expensive to develop because of the need to lift the development out of the floodplain. If and when the entire neighborhood is completed (and to the plan that was adopted in 2000) it can be a functioning and thriving neighborhood. Currently, it struggles from January to March due to the retail mix's reliance on game day activity. County leaders think that by doubling down on more entertainment via a concert venue it will stabilize the development. This may help but it shifts the whole neighborhood further towards entertainment and makes it less livable and less viable in the long-term.

 

What will make the Banks successful is building more residential and more office, thus bringing more permanent day and night populations to the development. If we put all our eggs in the entertainment basket, then we will thrive or die based on ticket sales, venue programming, and macroeconomics.

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“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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2 minutes ago, JYP said:

 

If you look at most stadiums around the country they are typically surrounded by surface parking and isolated from other parts of the city. There are a few examples where redevelopment has occurred or the stadium has been more thoroughly integrated into the surrounding city's fabric.

 

When it comes to the Banks though, it is expensive to develop because of the need to lift the development out of the floodplain. If and when the entire neighborhood is completed (and to the plan that was adopted in 2000) it can be a functioning and thriving neighborhood. Currently, it struggles from January to March due to the retail mix's reliance on game day activity. County leaders think that by doubling down on more entertainment via a concert venue it will stabilize the development. This may help but it shifts the whole neighborhood further towards entertainment and makes it less livable and less viable in the long-term.

 

What will make the Banks successful is building more residential and more office, thus bringing more permanent day and night populations to the development. If we put all our eggs in the entertainment basket, then we will thrive or die based on ticket sales, venue programming, and macroeconomics.

 

No I agree with you 100% on residential being the way forward. Just saying that considering how ridiculously slow the city and county have moved on this it is wildly successful thus far. Transport a Cincinnatian from the mid 90s to today's riverfront and show them Smale, The Banks, new FWW, etc. and their minds would be blown. 

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9 minutes ago, taestell said:

After the Brent Spence Bridge project is complete, yes, there will be access from I-75 North to the Ezzard Charles/Liberty exit. However, drivers will have to decide when they're coming down the Cut In The Hill to get on the "local" lanes that will cross the existing bridge and offer access to FWW, 5th Street, and Ezzard Charles. If they accidentally get into the "express" lanes they will go across the new bridge which does not offer any exits until the Western Hills Viaduct. (The express and local lanes merge back together after Ezzard Charles.)

So no exit off 75 north for the next 10-20 years since that bridge isn't getting built anytime soon.  

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5 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Hey guys, the Arena District turned out pretty well.

Yeah when you built a stadium or arena in the urban core it's a lot easier to get development around it.  If you built it out in the middle of nowhere surrounded by parking, not so easy.  

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8 minutes ago, JYP said:

 

If you look at most stadiums around the country they are typically surrounded by surface parking and isolated from other parts of the city. There are a few examples where redevelopment has occurred or the stadium has been more thoroughly integrated into the surrounding city's fabric.

 

When it comes to the Banks though, it is expensive to develop because of the need to lift the development out of the floodplain. If and when the entire neighborhood is completed (and to the plan that was adopted in 2000) it can be a functioning and thriving neighborhood. Currently, it struggles from January to March due to the retail mix's reliance on game day activity. County leaders think that by doubling down on more entertainment via a concert venue it will stabilize the development. This may help but it shifts the whole neighborhood further towards entertainment and makes it less livable and less viable in the long-term.

 

What will make the Banks successful is building more residential and more office, thus bringing more permanent day and night populations to the development. If we put all our eggs in the entertainment basket, then we will thrive or die based on ticket sales, venue programming, and macroeconomics.

 

If we want to be blue sky, we could also theoretically double down on the sports generating pedestrian traffic and venture on how a NBA/NHL team (who play in the winter) could impact the banks with an updated US Bank Arena. 

 

I know a handful of teams in both the NHL/NBA that have struggling attendance/ownership and would eye a relocation move.

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5 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Hey guys, the Arena District turned out pretty well.

 

I don't know the exact timeline, but I remember the surface parking lots between the arena and the music venues were there for awhile before finally being replaced with the new garage, residential, office, and retail. It seems they had a master plan for a mixed-use neighborhood that wasn't completely entertainment-focused and they were willing to stick to it until the pieces fell into place. Columbus even passed a ballot issue rejecting the originally proposed casino location in the Arena District.

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29 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

So no exit off 75 north for the next 10-20 years since that bridge isn't getting built anytime soon.  

 

The trick is to get in the US-50 River Road lane coming north across the current bridge and take that exit. Then immediately exit River Road to the right to Linn Street. You’re right in the heart of the West End & very close to the proposed stadium then. 

Edited by thebillshark
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39 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Hey guys, the Arena District turned out pretty well.

 

One of the few and it took a lot of push from Nationwide, planning and tons and tons of red bricks!


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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37 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

If we want to be blue sky, we could also theoretically double down on the sports generating pedestrian traffic and venture on how a NBA/NHL team (who play in the winter) could impact the banks with an updated US Bank Arena. 

 

I know a handful of teams in both the NHL/NBA that have struggling attendance/ownership and would eye a relocation move.

There's zero percent chance of us getting an NBA team and a low single digits or lower chance of us getting a NHL team. 

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32 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

There's zero percent chance of us getting an NBA team and a low single digits or lower chance of us getting a NHL team. 

 

There will soon be enough space between the north side of UDF stadium and Liberty St. to build a new arena.  

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1126945,-84.5216023,363m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

 

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49 minutes ago, thomasbw said:

There's zero percent chance of us getting an NBA team and a low single digits or lower chance of us getting a NHL team. 


I'd actually flip that, but I agree. Neither the NBA or NHL are going to come here, even with a new arena. Not as long as Columbus, Cleveland, and Indy exist with teams while other markets are more lucrative and appealing. 

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1 hour ago, thomasbw said:

There's zero percent chance of us getting an NBA team and a low single digits or lower chance of us getting a NHL team. 

 

I feel like this was the mentality when fcc and MLS talks came about. Why would MLS pick cincinnati when they have the Columbus crew? Why would they pick cincinnati against the likes of Sacramento, Detroit, the other competing bids...

 

The fact that we have a 3rd MLS team caused alot of disbelief. Lowely, small town minded cincinnati has 3 Major League Sport teams?! 

 

Our city is moving in an upward trajectory. No one on urban Ohio forum can deny that this city is the same city it was even 10 years ago. 

 

I'm not saying a NBA/NHL team is something that will happen tomorrow. Obviously it takes multiple factors like a wealthy ownership group, and a proper updated area that can satisfy the needs of nba/nhl.

 

I'm simply stating that a sports league like the nba has a tendency to relocate teams quite often. Dan Gilbert, owner of the Cavs has nixed the proposed plans to rennovate their arena, but still vows to keep the team in Cleveland for the foreseeable future. 

 

 

Regardless, attendance without LeBron (plus being the 2nd worst team in the league) has caused attendance to decline this season. How long will this last, who knows?

 

Same goes for a team like the Memphis Grizzilies. This team uses to be based out of Vancouver and moved to Memphis in the early 2000's. Their attendance has been declining for 4 straight years and has reached it's lowest point this season since 2010 season. 

 

I'm not saying we are ready today. But our city is growing in a very positive direction. We just recently received a 3rd Major League team, which many doubt would be possible for cincy to obtain. Sport leagues like the NHL, and more so the NBA relocate teams quite frequently, and if we were in a position where we had all of our ducks lined in a row for a possible relocation team then I don't think it's quite absurd for cincinnati to one day have 4 Major League Teams. 

 

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13 minutes ago, troeros said:

I'm simply stating that a sports league like the nba has a tendency to relocate teams quite often. Dan Gilbert, owner of the Cavs has nixed the proposed plans to rennovate their arena, but still vows to keep the team in Cleveland for the foreseeable future. 

 

this is not true...... and you are on this forum.... 

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3 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

The vast majority of the "soccer bros" go out in OTR before and after games.  So no I don't think they want Nashville like bars.  Maybe stop generalizing an an entire fanbase that you clearly don't know much about.  

 

Much of the dining and entertainment options in OTR meet the description given above: "Overwhelmingly, the American consumer wants the appearance of authenticity, but is scared of the real thing." There are obviously some authentic establishments in OTR (MOTR and Alabama Fish come to mind), but chains like Thunderdome have crafted entire brands centered around the idea of appearing authentic. You can go to an authentic, local Bakersfield in how many places now? This fills a big gap between Applebees and mom-and-pop places - all the apparent authenticity of the latter, all the convenience and familiarity of the former.

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33 minutes ago, troeros said:

The fact that we have a 3rd MLS team caused alot of disbelief. Lowely, small town minded cincinnati has 3 Major League Sport teams?! 

 

MLS is "major" in name only.  The entire MLS TV contract is less than the revenue of several individual college football teams.  

 

Fewer people are watching all MLS games on TV than Ohio State.  

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

Much of the dining and entertainment options in OTR meet the description given above: "Overwhelmingly, the American consumer wants the appearance of authenticity, but is scared of the real thing." There are obviously some authentic establishments in OTR (MOTR and Alabama Fish come to mind), but chains like Thunderdome have crafted entire brands centered around the idea of appearing authentic. You can go to an authentic, local Bakersfield in how many places now? This fills a big gap between Applebees and mom-and-pop places - all the apparent authenticity of the latter, all the convenience and familiarity of the former.

We have the authentic Thunderdome restaurants because they were all started here.  It's all the other cities that have the replicas.  I guess the bars in OTR don't count as authentic either for some reason?  Give me a break.  Some of you seriously just live to hate on everything that is popular and trendy.  

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5 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

MLS is "major" in name only.  The entire MLS TV contract is less than the revenue of several individual college football teams.  

 

Fewer people are watching all MLS games on TV than Ohio State.  

 

 

 

 

The league is also barely 20 year old. Comparing apples to oranges.

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1 hour ago, troeros said:

 

I feel like this was the mentality when fcc and MLS talks came about. Why would MLS pick cincinnati when they have the Columbus crew? Why would they pick cincinnati against the likes of Sacramento, Detroit, the other competing bids...

 

The fact that we have a 3rd MLS team caused alot of disbelief. Lowely, small town minded cincinnati has 3 Major League Sport teams?! 

 

There's a big difference in getting the 24th MLS franchise out of a possible 28-32 total and relocating an existing NBA/NHL franchise when there's only one up for moving at any time (and generally there isn't one available). 

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There was an article in the business courier probably about 5-7 years back where it listed all major league cities in the country and their capacity to add an extra team and the type of team it could support. it took into account major college sports in the landscape too. Cities with MLB and NFL used the most bandwidth for support than NBA and NHL and MLS cities. it showed that Cincnnati with NFL and MLB could not support another team and ran a deficit (hence the push on regionalism) Columbus had capacity but not enough to add an NFL, MLB or NBA team. It was an interesting analysis.

 

Fast forward to 2019 and there is a 3rd team in town, so it shows, if there is  a will there is always a way.

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Right, there is only a limited amount of disposable income that people have. If you keep adding more teams past the "ideal" number of teams, you are just spreading the fan base thinner. Someone who used to have Reds season tickets may now decide to get FCC season tickets and attend a few Reds games per year. According to this Business Insider article from a few years ago, economists believe Cincinnati can support 1.6 pro teams, which of course we have exceeded since the creation of the Bengals. Now we have added a third pro team. The idea of adding two additional pro teams is just crazy talk.

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16 hours ago, troeros said:

 

I feel like this was the mentality when fcc and MLS talks came about. Why would MLS pick cincinnati when they have the Columbus crew? Why would they pick cincinnati against the likes of Sacramento, Detroit, the other competing bids...

 

The fact that we have a 3rd MLS team caused alot of disbelief. Lowely, small town minded cincinnati has 3 Major League Sport teams?! 

 

Our city is moving in an upward trajectory. No one on urban Ohio forum can deny that this city is the same city it was even 10 years ago. 

 

I'm not saying a NBA/NHL team is something that will happen tomorrow. Obviously it takes multiple factors like a wealthy ownership group, and a proper updated area that can satisfy the needs of nba/nhl.

 

I'm simply stating that a sports league like the nba has a tendency to relocate teams quite often. Dan Gilbert, owner of the Cavs has nixed the proposed plans to rennovate their arena, but still vows to keep the team in Cleveland for the foreseeable future. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Could you please clarify your Dan Gilbert statement.  Am I missing something?  Cleveland is wrapping up a two year $185 mil renovation  of the Q (now Rocket Fieldhouse) of which the Cavs contributed more than 65%.

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1 hour ago, taestell said:

Right, there is only a limited amount of disposable income that people have. If you keep adding more teams past the "ideal" number of teams, you are just spreading the fan base thinner. Someone who used to have Reds season tickets may now decide to get FCC season tickets and attend a few Reds games per year. According to this Business Insider article from a few years ago, economists believe Cincinnati can support 1.6 pro teams, which of course we have exceeded since the creation of the Bengals. Now we have added a third pro team. The idea of adding two additional pro teams is just crazy talk.

 

As somebody who ran the ticket sales department for UC athletics, we definitely felt the impact from FCC. It also didn't help that we were struggling right through their growth.

Edited by tonyt3524

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1 hour ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

A 3rd team in town and an empty Ballpark.

 

It's an empty ballpark because the reds havent been good since 2012 and the ownership has been flakey at best.

 

Also, mlb attendance has been suffering league wide. Hence the reason why first place Minnesota twins had to do a 5$ dollar ticket promotion just earlier this week.

 

Greater cincinnati population is what 2.1 million? FCC, Bengals, Reds fans don't just live in the urban core/outer ring suburbs of west chester and Mason...They live in Hamilton, Middletown, Dayton, Covington KY, Florence KY, parts of Indiana. Our city is located in a unique position where our sport teams can have the power to reach not just greater Ohio but also KY and parts of Indiana.

 

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Cincy is no different then every other city.  They support the teams better when they win and support them less when they don't win.  Considering the city hasn't seen much winning in the last 30 years it's not surprising attendance is low right now.  

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13 minutes ago, troeros said:

Our city is located in a unique position where our sport teams can have the power to reach not just greater Ohio but also KY and parts of Indiana.

 

How is this unique? New York teams reach into Connecticut, New Jersey, and PA--much more populous states. Philly teams reach into NJ, DE, and MD. Chicago teams reach into Indiana, Wisconsin, and Iowa. Boston has all of New England. Every team draws from a wider area than just its metro area. 

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