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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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I love how they describe the sound study as "sobering". Holy misplaced rhetoric here. Something that is sobering is a study that finds lead paint is more prevalent then thought,  that the chemicals used to treat our water actually cause cancer. These events warrant using the "sobering" term. What is overblown is using "sobering" to describe concert goers on a rare occasion having a low hum from soccer fans after a goal for a few brief seconds during the crescendo of Beethoven's 9th.  There will be 24 soccer games, and there will likely be a good amount during the day hours. Any overlap will be minimal.

 

I like the symphony, I used to attend a decent amount in the past, but these people need to get the stick out of their a$$es.

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I've been lurking this thread for a while and as a displaced Cincinnatian living in SLC this whole thing just reeks of "only in Cincinnati".

 

I'll use our local MLS team as an example since I'm a season ticket holder and I've been going to games regularly for six years. Despite its terrible location in the suburb of Sandy (the owner of the Jazz didn't want an MLS team playing in SLC proper) there are a couple of analogous comparisons to the West End stadium in Cincinnati. The majority of parking for the stadium is permit-only so most patrons have to either take our light rail system or park in a private lot and walk a couple of blocks to the stadium. A typical Utah block is about double the size of a standard city block. When we park, our typical walk is between 10-15 minutes and ranges from .25 to .07 mile. From the nearest TRAX stop, it's a 12-minute .06 mile walk and literally thousands of fans do this for every game. Walking from TRAX or any parking to the east of the stadium requires crossing SR 89 (State St.). This is a six-lane monstrosity of a thorofare with a lane separating divider in the middle. Guess what! They don't close the street and instead just have police officers controlling the light at the corner of State and Stadium Way (which is an access road they close). Thousands of people cross State St. and there's never an issue. 

 

Adding to this is the fact that there's literally nothing to do around the stadium unless you tailgate. There aren't many restaurants to speak of so traffic in and out is at a crush volume and it works. You don't really have the option to go somewhere and hang out before and after the game like you do in Cincinnati.

 

When I see comments like, "we have to close Central Pkwy" or "People won't walk from the streetcar or other garages" I have to laugh. I live in one of the most poorly-planned anti-urban cities in the country with a population that sees single-family sprawl as morally right. If we can make it work in Salt Lake, there's no reason why FC Cincy can't have a 25,000 seat stadium and keep Central Pkwy open and let the rest of the city handle parking.

 

I'm not going to weigh in on the Music Hall issue other than to say that it seems like 12 dbs would be about as loud as a full symphony hall anyway.

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I really wish FCC would stop yanking everybody around and just show us the final site plan for what they intend to build. Every time they show a rendering it does not match what was shown in previous renderings.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, taestell said:

I really wish FCC would stop yanking everybody around and just show us the final site plan for what they intend to build. Every time they show a rendering it does not match what was shown in previous renderings.

 

 

 

Welcome to the world of stadium design:
DC United Rendering

  spacer.png

 

Final product 

 

spacer.png

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Yeah, roofs are expensive.  Like massively expensive.  The pair of upper deck roofs on Paul Brown Stadium was a $10 million upgrade.  They're the first thing to get chopped off a plan. 

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9 minutes ago, taestell said:

I really wish FCC would stop yanking everybody around and just show us the final site plan for what they intend to build. Every time they show a rendering it does not match what was shown in previous renderings.

 

 

They don't have a final plan yet.  Wetterich later tweeted that the plans can change during the concept plan phase which they're currently in.  They can't make the development any larger then the concept city counsel approved but they can make changes to it that keep it the same size or make it smaller.  I don't think they're going to be able to make an official final plan until they have issues like the ballet parking lot and the county garage(s) figured out.  

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This whole stadium debacle has been a joke from the beginning. Had the team followed any sort of normal development process, these issues related to sound, light, and traffic would have been studied and their mitigation would have been planned for. Whenever any organization tried to pump the breaks, the team and their soccer bro fanboys pitched huge fits and acted like any setback whatsoever would be catastrophic. First it was the school board, then the West End neighborhood council, now it's council and the arts organizations that call Music Hall home. This isn't a giant conspiracy against the soccer bros. You can't just plop down a professional stadium in the middle of an urban neighborhood and expect everyone to just roll over and be appreciative that the FCC overlords are bringing Cincy some 'major league clout', or whatever BS Berding the conman is spouting.

 

The thing that really pisses me off about this Music Hall situation, though, is that no one seems concerned over the noise, parking, light effects on the neighboring residents, despite the fact they will be RIGHT across the street from this thing. No one cares about noise until Otto Budig raises a fuss about the impact it will have on Music Hall. This is exactly how people of the West End were treated when I-75 was built through the heart of their neighborhood. They are seen as dispensable and unimportant, and when they actually tried to stand up for themselves by securing a CBA, they were lambasted by the team, their fans, and the media. 

 

We STILL don't even have a final site plan. The team is presenting phony renderings and site plans to frickin' city council! In what world is any of this acceptable or appropriate? The way this whole process has been allowed to play out is shameful but not surprising for Cincinnati.

Edited by edale
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I want to advocate for some design solutions here like... building the "Future Development." I'm pretty sure that a 6-story development the entire span of Central Parkway from Liberty to Ezzard Charles would GREATLY reduce the dB's, both low and high frequency, in Music Hall. On top of this, there would be an opportunity to add density along a corridor with access to 10 bus lines (1, 6, 16, 20, 21, 46, 49, 64, 67, 78), north and south lines of the Streetcar, and a protected bike lane ALL within 2 blocks. Not only that, but to edale's point on "what about the neighbors" (like me, who lives directly across CP from the stadium site), the Future Development would do what so many in the block between Elm and CP want: block the stadium from view in OTR. I don't disagree, there are MUCH better ways to make a project happen. Still waiting and hoping for a developer to come to Cincinnati who isn't afraid of community input, or rather, knows that community input makes a project BETTER. Wow.

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On 2/4/2019 at 2:23 PM, ryanlammi said:

I agree that the administration has been terrible about the Liberty Street road diet. 

 

I also think that people who are asking for the prohibition of closing CP are using the same fear tactics about gridlock that the administration is using with Liberty (and everyone is using about the Brent Spence) without using any data to back up their claims. It's a terrible way to run the city.

 

One of the reasons, if not the primary reason, that the city doesn't want to narrow Liberty Street is because closing Central Parkway to automobile traffic will force all traffic headed to I-71 and I-471 to use Liberty Street.

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23 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

One of the reasons, if not the primary reason, that the city doesn't want to narrow Liberty Street is because closing Central Parkway to automobile traffic will force all traffic headed to I-71 and I-471 to use Liberty Street.

 

Didn't pg sittenfield go on that big crusade to get enough votes to fund the diet and over ride the veto...what would be thr point of allocating all of that money and going through all of that political hoop jumping if the diet was never going to happen.

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If anyone parks south of the stadium site, they would probably be able to take Central Parkway. The entire stretch of CP is not being proposed to be eliminated - just the part that connects ~Ezzard Charles to Liberty.

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14 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Didn't pg sittenfield go on that big crusade to get enough votes to fund the diet and over ride the veto...what would be thr point of allocating all of that money and going through all of that political hoop jumping if the diet was never going to happen.

 

City Council's job is to provide the funding and to provide "direction" to the administration. City Council directed the administration to do the road diet and provided the necessary funding. However, to a certain extent, it is possible for the Mayor and City Manager to ignore that direction and do what they want. I am working on something on this topic. Stay tuned.

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2 hours ago, edale said:

This whole stadium debacle has been a joke from the beginning. Had the team followed any sort of normal development process, these issues related to sound, light, and traffic would have been studied and their mitigation would have been planned for. Whenever any organization tried to pump the breaks, the team and their soccer bro fanboys pitched huge fits and acted like any setback whatsoever would be catastrophic. First it was the school board, then the West End neighborhood council, now it's council and the arts organizations that call Music Hall home. This isn't a giant conspiracy against the soccer bros. You can't just plop down a professional stadium in the middle of an urban neighborhood and expect everyone to just roll over and be appreciative that the FCC overlords are bringing Cincy some 'major league clout', or whatever BS Berding the conman is spouting.

 

The thing that really pisses me off about this Music Hall situation, though, is that no one seems concerned over the noise, parking, light effects on the neighboring residents, despite the fact they will be RIGHT across the street from this thing. No one cares about noise until Otto Budig raises a fuss about the impact it will have on Music Hall. This is exactly how people of the West End were treated when I-75 was built through the heart of their neighborhood. They are seen as dispensable and unimportant, and when they actually tried to stand up for themselves by securing a CBA, they were lambasted by the team, their fans, and the media. 

 

We STILL don't even have a final site plan. The team is presenting phony renderings and site plans to frickin' city council! In what world is any of this acceptable or appropriate? The way this whole process has been allowed to play out is shameful but not surprising for Cincinnati.

 

Yeah unfortunately a lot of people weren't around for Berding Episode 1 back in 1996.  As soon as I heard that he was involved with the soccer team back when they formed in 2014 or whenever I was like...here we go again

 

They succeeded again in surrounding the whole thing in a false crisis.  They created a false sense of urgency and used that to win concessions. 

 

 

 

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FC Cincinnati scuttles orange roof, scales back other development around stadium

 

FC Cincinnati has ditched its plans for a partial roof that can turn orange at its $250 million Major League Soccer stadium and reduced future development around it, team officials told the City Council on Tuesday. The orange glow from the roof had drawn criticism for sticking out in the West End, the historic neighborhood where the stadium will be located in which brick is a predominant feature of much of the housing. 

 

More: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/02/06/fc-cincinnati-scuttles-orange-roof-scales-back.html

image.png

 

In the least surprising bit of news, all development on Central Parkway looks to have been removed.

Edited by tonyt3524

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This last sentence is confusing in the Enquirer today:

 

  Two developments slated to be built by the stadium have been scaled back to one development at Wade Street and Central Parkway.   

 It will take advantage of two lager houses below, the remnants of a brewery. Above that, at street level, would be retail space and on top of that office space.

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That last rendering keeps the metal framing shape, but loses the ETFE material, which I'm sure will eventually go away too once they realize it's serving no purpose.  I call it a rendering but it's more like a screenshot of Rhino where someone was told to "turn off the orange stuff layer", but nothing else about the design was updated. The roof canopy is now floating without any connection to the structure and this was clearly done as a quick "see we listened to the community" consolation, but it's clear there is no thought for what the building will look like or how it will function without the ETFE. 

 

The renderings since day 1, whether in Newport Oakley or the West End, included the orange translucent material. Without that what is the character of this stadium? It has no brick to fit into the neighborhood, no ETFE material to be a modern glowing icon, so what is it? At this point the best case is that it will disappear behind development and be as unnoticeable as possible. 

Edited by ucgrady
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19 minutes ago, Jimmy Skinner said:

This last sentence is confusing in the Enquirer today:

 

  Two developments slated to be built by the stadium have been scaled back to one development at Wade Street and Central Parkway.   

 It will take advantage of two lager houses below, the remnants of a brewery. Above that, at street level, would be retail space and on top of that office space.

 

The ballet parking lot at the corner of Wade and Central parkway is the site of what used to be a brewery.  There are lager tunnels under the parking lot.  You can actually still see the foundation of the building at the perimeter of the lot.  I assume they mean to incorporate the tunnels into the new development.  However, the ballet has a lease on that parking lot.  FC still needs to buy them out of their lease for the parking lot, and the building at some point.

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The article mentioned that there would be three levels of parking including some that is underground.  I'd guess they'll retrofit the underground lager houses for parking but it would be cool if they put a bar down there.  

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1 hour ago, Cincy513 said:

The article mentioned that there would be three levels of parking including some that is underground.  I'd guess they'll retrofit the underground lager houses for parking but it would be cool if they put a bar down there.  

No they said yesterday they adjusted the footprint of the garage and changed from two to three levels so as to leave the ballet parking lot undisturbed. 

 

But that means they are preserving the lager tunnels then. That’s great news!!!

Edited by thebillshark

www.cincinnatiideas.com

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2 hours ago, ucgrady said:

That last rendering keeps the metal framing shape, but loses the ETFE material, which I'm sure will eventually go away too once they realize it's serving no purpose.  I call it a rendering but it's more like a screenshot of Rhino where someone was told to "turn off the orange stuff layer", but nothing else about the design was updated. The roof canopy is now floating without any connection to the structure and this was clearly done as a quick "see we listened to the community" consolation, but it's clear there is no thought for what the building will look like or how it will function without the ETFE. 

 

The renderings since day 1, whether in Newport Oakley or the West End, included the orange translucent material. Without that what is the character of this stadium? It has no brick to fit into the neighborhood, no ETFE material to be a modern glowing icon, so what is it? At this point the best case is that it will disappear behind development and be as unnoticeable as possible. 

 

Exactly. What a farce. How dumb do they think people are? I wish this mess would have gone to Newport.

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It's hard to critique the renderings of the stadium since it it keeps changing and nothing is finalized. But I absolutely DESPISE when stadiums create these massive elevated setbacks from the street, completely destroying flow, connectivity, and activity around the stadium. This is part of the reason Lucas Oil in Indy is a failure in my opinion. It's a massive fortress set far away and elevated from the street level. It's such a dead zone when there isn't a game. Nationwide up in Columbus is an amazing example of how a smaller, human scale arena can be done extremely well. I think an urban soccer stadium such as Cincinnati's should try to replicate the successes of Nationwide Arena. 

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45 minutes ago, Lucas_uLsac said:

It's hard to critique the renderings of the stadium since it it keeps changing and nothing is finalized. But I absolutely DESPISE when stadiums create these massive elevated setbacks from the street, completely destroying flow, connectivity, and activity around the stadium. This is part of the reason Lucas Oil in Indy is a failure in my opinion. It's a massive fortress set far away and elevated from the street level. It's such a dead zone when there isn't a game. Nationwide up in Columbus is an amazing example of how a smaller, human scale arena can be done extremely well. I think an urban soccer stadium such as Cincinnati's should try to replicate the successes of Nationwide Arena. 

 

Capital One Arena (Long live Verizon Center) also does an excellent job of being located in a Human Scaled Place. They are able to keep 7th and F open during games, would it really be bad for FC Cincinnati if Cincinnati kept Central Parkway open? Perhaps a wider sidewalk or a true plaza could also work?

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1 hour ago, Lucas_uLsac said:

It's hard to critique the renderings of the stadium since it it keeps changing and nothing is finalized. But I absolutely DESPISE when stadiums create these massive elevated setbacks from the street, completely destroying flow, connectivity, and activity around the stadium. This is part of the reason Lucas Oil in Indy is a failure in my opinion. It's a massive fortress set far away and elevated from the street level. It's such a dead zone when there isn't a game. Nationwide up in Columbus is an amazing example of how a smaller, human scale arena can be done extremely well. I think an urban soccer stadium such as Cincinnati's should try to replicate the successes of Nationwide Arena. 

 

Looks like that plaza is about 300 ft long in the rendering which is a lot of street frontage to be closed off most of the time. What they could do is put a one story building in the space marked “lower plaza” and extend it to meet the sidewalk. Its roof could form part of the upper plaza. It could be a bar or a team store open to the public year-round. 

Edited by thebillshark
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www.cincinnatiideas.com

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1 hour ago, thebillshark said:

 

Looks like that plaza is about 300 ft long in the rendering which is a lot of street frontage to be closed off most of the time. What they could do is put a one story building in the space marked “lower plaza” and extend it to meet the sidewalk. Its roof could form part of the upper plaza. It could be a bar or a team store open to the public year-round. 

That's a much better idea then the proposed "lower plaza."  The upper plaza is fine with me but I don't see any reason for the lower plaza to exist.  And with just a one story building you'd still be able to see the stadium from across the street.  

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3 hours ago, thebillshark said:

 

Looks like that plaza is about 300 ft long in the rendering which is a lot of street frontage to be closed off most of the time. What they could do is put a one story building in the space marked “lower plaza” and extend it to meet the sidewalk. Its roof could form part of the upper plaza. It could be a bar or a team store open to the public year-round. 

 

I definitely think that is an alternative option that I could live with. I just hate to see an opportunity such as this to be wasted with a stadium that isn't living up to its full potential. 

 

Is anyone aware of whether this stadium will be able to pull large music acts? I know that's something that Cincinnati has struggled with for a long time, and one that has been in discussion lately. But I don't recall reading anything about the stadium trying to bring in large music acts. If this were the case, I would love to see the stadium roofed in order to compete with all of the regional stadiums. 

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The stadium will absolutely not have a roof over the whole thing. It just won't change that much.

 

They are going to pursue musical acts, but it won't be programmed with music every week or probably even every month. It'll probably be the site of a few concerts in the fall after the MLS season ends and maybe a couple during the season. I think the neighborhood is trying to limit the number of events hosted.

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Stadium shows are very expensive to stage and risky for promoters.  That's why Mapfre Stadium has a permanent stage and presumably permanent electric hookups. 

 

This FC Cincinnati stadium isn't going to have much more capacity for a traditionally staged concert (one with the stage in the end zone) than US Bank does in an in-the-round configuration (i.e. 16,000 at last week's Metallica concert). 

 

Promotors rarely sell seats behind a traditional stage.  A noteworthy recent exception was the Grateful Dead at Soldier Field in 2015, where they crammed 10,000+ behind the stage.   

 

 

 

gratefuldead.jpg

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City forms a deal for the Police District One lot:

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2019/02/06/citycity-strikes-deal-to-sell-fc-cincinnati-land-strikes-deal-sell-fc-cincinnati-land/2792614002/

 

It mentions constructing another parking lot across the street from District One... Would that be where the weird amphitheater/spiral ramp/ghost of Music Hall bridge is now?


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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3 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Stadium shows are very expensive to stage and risky for promoters.  That's why Mapfre Stadium has a permanent stage and presumably permanent electric hookups. 

 

This FC Cincinnati stadium isn't going to have much more capacity for a traditionally staged concert (one with the stage in the end zone) than US Bank does in an in-the-round configuration (i.e. 16,000 at last week's Metallica concert). 

 

Metallica has been big on playing in the round for a long time but a lot of other bands don't seem to like it.

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9 hours ago, Lucas_uLsac said:

This is part of the reason Lucas Oil in Indy is a failure in my opinion. It's a massive fortress set far away and elevated from the street level. It's such a dead zone when there isn't a game.

That's exactly what I thought of when I saw that rendering!

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3 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

 

Metallica has been big on playing in the round for a long time but a lot of other bands don't seem to like it.

 

 

They can jam more people into an arena with an in-the-round stage.  So the upside is more revenue out of a given show from a given venue in the event of a sellout.  But the downside risk is A LOT of empty seats and not just the ones behind the stage. 

 

Hara Arena, according to Wiki, had a max capacity of 7,000 including standing room on the floor.  I saw a concert there in 1995 that *maybe* had 1,000 people there.  SAD!  A lot of empty seats, but if that thing had been in the round, it would have felt like NOBODY was there. 

 

It's not really an option to do an in-the-round configuration for an open-air stadium since the stage needs to have a roof over it to protect equipment.  At Paul Brown Stadium, they set up the stage in the end zone for rock concerts but then set it up on the 50 yard line for the Jazz Festival, facing one side and leaving half of the place empty. 

 

357556609_CMFFriday_44.jpg.83d7cdfc2d940a6e81d61b83a838daf7.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Is this the first rendering we've seen that shows the District 1 headquarters being redeveloped? I feel like there are so many secret deals being made behind the scenes between the team, city, and county that the public isn't aware of.

 

 

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This site plan already doesn't match the rendering from two days ago. This process is ridiculously non-transparent. There are a lot more historic buildings going away with this plan and every time we see something new, another existing building has disappeared.

 

Sometimes I think jmecklenborg can see conspiracy where there isn't, but in the case of Berding and all this FC Cincinnati business he has been unfortunately prescient.

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Anyone could have looked at the ownership of all of the property in the area, as did I, and see the naked lies.  They could see that the team was *definitely* going to the west end months before the announcement, even before the team bought the option on the cast-fab site.  The local media simply sucks at 3-D space.  The only tools I had was the auditor's website and google earth.  I figured it out, emailed several of them, and none of them believed me. 

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1 minute ago, ucgrady said:

Sometimes I think jmecklenborg can see conspiracy where there isn't, but in the case of Berding and all this FC Cincinnati business he has been unfortunately prescient.

 

Also, I followed the Nashville soccer news closely, and saw that FC Cincinnati modeled their strategies after what John Ingram did there.  I followed it because my dad is a shareholder in Ingram Industries and now, randomly, owns stock in a MLS soccer franchise.  But all of that information was all public and there was nothing secret in the shareholder letters. 

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59 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Sometimes I think jmecklenborg can see conspiracy where there isn't, but in the case of Berding and all this FC Cincinnati business he has been unfortunately prescient.

 

Let's go to the UrbanOhio time machine...

 

On 5/29/2018 at 11:16 PM, jmecklenborg said:

It's obvious that the city fathers (the blue bloods who fuel local politics) are moving to control the redevelopment of Central Parkway from the bend up to Liberty St. We will likely soon hear specific plans for redevelopment of the WCET studios property.

 

On 5/30/2018 at 10:20 AM, Cincy513 said:

God again with your conspiracy theories.

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^Also, the scam in Nashville is much more grandiose than here.  All of the business about MLS wanting to be in "urban areas" was really just an excuse for MLS owners around the country to mix up their respective area's real estate game to their advantage, and much of it with public money and concessions. 

 

John Ingram has been on the Vanderbilt University board of trustees for many years (his dad might have before him as well -- numerous things at Vanderbilt have the "Ingram" name on it).  He actually attempted to have the Commodores move off the Vanderbilt campus to the stadium he'll soon own on the Nashville Fairground site a mile away.  Then, as a Vanderbilt Trustee, he was going to shape what took the place of the stadium and its parking lot in a super-expensive part of Nashville. 

 

Imagine if Carl Lindner, III had just been handed, say, Burnett Woods for free and he convinced UC to move Bearcats football games to his new soccer stadium.  Then he got to shape what was built in the Nippert Stadium pit. 

 

We can all see now why the big money ran Yvette Simpson into the ground over the Children's Hospital thing.  We have seen zero resistance from John Cranley or even a public comment of any kind. 

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