Jump to content
cincydave8

Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

Recommended Posts

When the Miami Heat played the Dallas Mavericks in the NBA Finals, they bounced back and forth between American Airlines Arena in Miami, and American Airlines Center in Dallas.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

 

The naming rights for an MLS stadium are a fraction of the value of an NFL or MLB stadium.  Because a fraction of the people are watching any event there on TV. 

 

Its also extremely on brand for them.   Now and then I attend tailgate parties at Chicago fire games and know someone who was for a time involved in organizing fan events for them, and I'll tell you any beer that wasn't PBR was all craft.  Most of the culture around MLS is more hipster than your average sports culture, (and the non hipster parts are immigrant communities which Cincy is comparatively lacking in)  so craft beer sponsorship makes a ton of sense.  I think Jake's got the right idea here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After seeing the renderings (likely conceptual) for the proposed Columbus Crew stadium, I'm really disappointed with the FC Cincinnati design. Brick and painted steel would harmonize with the Cincinnati context much better than the plastic-looking thing proposed. If only we could swap the two. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, ink said:

After seeing the renderings (likely conceptual) for the proposed Columbus Crew stadium, I'm really disappointed with the FC Cincinnati design. Brick and painted steel would harmonize with the Cincinnati context much better than the plastic-looking thing proposed. If only we could swap the two. 

 Plastic looking? No metaphor here! EFTE is plastic.

 

If FC Cincinnati really wanted a contextual, top of the line, authentic beautiful stadium, they would have hired an architect that does contextual, top of the line, authenticity like Olson Kundig, Kieran Timberlake, Patkau, Jeanne Gang, Todd Williams & Billie Tsien, Herzog de Mueron, while we're at it I'll throw in Renzo Piano and Peter Zumthor. Instead, they will get trendy-for-the-moment fast fashion from a guy who only designs stadiums.  

 

You know, we could all also be missing something about Cincinnati's identity, or its outward face, that Meis sees... and that translates poetically to the skin of the building. I haven't found the architect's explanation of the stadium design.

Edited by Chas Wiederhold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, ink said:

After seeing the renderings (likely conceptual) for the proposed Columbus Crew stadium, I'm really disappointed with the FC Cincinnati design. Brick and painted steel would harmonize with the Cincinnati context much better than the plastic-looking thing proposed. If only we could swap the two. 

I can see where your coming from because the current design lack any context or connection to its city or surroundings, but nothing the scale of a stadium looks contextual anyway. The only brick and steel stadium I’ve ever been to is Indianapolis’s Lucas Oil stadium and I think it looks fake and tacky. At that scale faux-historic just looks weird. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have no qualms about the stadium. The design is modern enough to where it will provide a nice jauxtaposition compared to the surrounding historic architecture.

 

Anything faux would just remind me of City west. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

...hired an architect that does contextual, top of the line, authenticity like Olson Kundig, Kieran Timberlake, Patkau, Jeanne Gang, Todd Williams & Billie Tsien, Herzog de Mueron, while we're at it I'll throw in Renzo Piano and Peter Zumthor.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Herzog & de Mueron and Renzo Piano are the only 2 firms out of this bunch that have actually built a stadium of any similar scale before. Can you imagine the outcry if they hired an architect who had no relevant job experience? But I agree with your overall point that this MEIS guy doesn't care about the context at all. 

 

11 hours ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

You know, we could all also be missing something about Cincinnati's identity, or its outward face, that Meis sees... and that translates poetically to the skin of the building. I haven't found the architect's explanation of the stadium design.

 

I feel like if someone has to dig that much into a project to make it believable, then the project just doesn't work. 

 

But overall, there is definitely some middle ground between "I just copied the context materials, but put it on a building 10x larger than anything else," and "a spaceship just landed in West End." Unfortunately we have the latter. 

 

To ink's point, I agree that Columbus' design is much better than the design for Cincinnati.

 

image.thumb.png.c73a93e3d675d3df18f9f2708f2419fd.png

 

 

Edited by Largue
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Largue said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Herzog & de Mueron and Renzo Piano are the only 2 firms out of this bunch that have actually built a stadium of any similar scale before

 

You're right, and I included those two for that reason exactly, but the unifying thread in this list are architects that apply an obvious and pervasive layer of regional context into their buildings. An incredibly unique, one-of-a-kind, critically regionalist building would be built, lets say, by hiring Olson Kundig, Todd Williams & Billie Tsien, or Patkau to design the concept and hiring Populous (where Meis worked before starting his own practice) to consult on stadium design.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what's damning in this case is that when the stadium design moved from the Ohio River confluence in Newport sitting atop a levee wall overlooking downtown, to a dense historic neighborhood it didn't change almost at all. The location of the public plaza may have shifted, but the glowing tide pod stayed nearly identical from the early renderings regardless of which of the three locations it was depicted.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Columbus leadership has consistently demanded better quality buildings and design since at least 2000.

 

Meanwhile, in Cincinnati, more conventional architecture is accepted. Its a combination of lack of visionary leadership mixed with a conservative culture. While there is a strong design community here, we know that currently, their opinions are not as valued in these decisions as they used to be.

  • Like 1

“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I think what's damning in this case is that when the stadium design moved from the Ohio River confluence in Newport sitting atop a levee wall overlooking downtown, to a dense historic neighborhood it didn't change almost at all. The location of the public plaza may have shifted, but the glowing tide pod stayed nearly identical from the early renderings regardless of which of the three locations it was depicted.

 

I think this is the key point here. I'm not familiar with architecture studio project workflows but is there enough time from a May 2018 site approval to a December 2018  ground breaking to completely revamp a design? It's nice to think that if the site had been selected/signed off on earlier, they probably could have designed in context of the West End neighborhood. But I'm not so sure Meis thinks that way? Looking over his projects and concepts they all feel very similar. 

 

I just have yet to see anyone that's part FC Cincinnati's ownership/front office have a discerning design eye.  The initial crest, new crest, jerseys etc. have all felt mediocre and now the stadium design. This was an opportunity to do something absolutely world class and it feels squandered. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, taestell said:

This...is interesting?

 

 

 

In the parking inventory (see pages 48-52) https://www.dropbox.com/s/697esb9bb9p3ghg/FCC West End Stadium.pdf?dl=0) they are including a lot of CBD garages that are within a 3/4 mile (15-minute walk) radius. Even if/when new garages are built closer to the stadium, there will still be the case that "most" of the parking options will be in the CBD just by virtue of there already being so many garages there. Not sure how many people will be willing to walk from the Macy's garage (1600 spaces) up to the stadium... but people will figure it out. If you don't want to spend a lot of money and don't mind walking, then you have lots of options within a 10-15 minute walk.

 

image.thumb.png.7bedf83e041c98b76460914948ac2e47.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, moose said:

 

I think this is the key point here. I'm not familiar with architecture studio project workflows but is there enough time from a May 2018 site approval to a December 2018  ground breaking to completely revamp a design? It's nice to think that if the site had been selected/signed off on earlier, they probably could have designed in context of the West End neighborhood. But I'm not so sure Meis thinks that way? Looking over his projects and concepts they all feel very similar. 

 

I just have yet to see anyone that's part FC Cincinnati's ownership/front office have a discerning design eye.  The initial crest, new crest, jerseys etc. have all felt mediocre and now the stadium design. This was an opportunity to do something absolutely world class and it feels squandered. 

 

Short answer: No. And at a meeting last night Meis basically said is that he/they are not seeking additional input about the design. I haven't listened to the audio file my neighbor sent me yet where he explicitly states this, but am paraphrasing what was summarized for me.

 

Meis does different designs when the clients demand it, but they still try to innovate in some way. Their design for PBS was innovative for removing corners and creating views. The client in Indianapolis demanded a retro/historic look for Lucas Oil, but Meis still got to innovate with the roof system. 

 

Otis/Elevar don't have much control over the design of the building as architects of record for the project. Elevar is like a local punching bag for Meis' designs. 

 

I did some quick modeling of the project when the zoning change packet came out to understand how it would impact my little neighborhood of Western OTR and determined that you're really not going to see the stadium behind the proposed development. You will see it from the south, north, and west... but not really from the east. All of this said with the caveat that they build 6 stories of future development on Central Parkway from Liberty to the ChoreMonster building (right now they are not proposing future development south of 15th, but I can only imagine that will change)

 

 I've got more views than these... but they give an idea of how completely hidden this thing is going to be from Central Parkway. 

 

538768443_14thandCentralParkway_wDevelopment.thumb.jpg.fa9f86518932d9e006e5b9c06ef313e7.jpg

At 14th and Central Parkway as proposed ^

2001717224_14thandCentralParkway_wextraDevelopment.thumb.jpg.402c972128abe789d1f7968016e26b6a.jpg

At 14th and Central Parkway with additional development^

1869238515_WadeandCentralParkway.thumb.jpg.a99f96c1afdcde7ceb9251fb2967bb04.jpg

At Wade and Central Parkway as proposed ^

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

 

In the parking inventory (see pages 48-52) https://www.dropbox.com/s/697esb9bb9p3ghg/FCC West End Stadium.pdf?dl=0) they are including a lot of CBD garages that are within a 3/4 mile (15-minute walk) radius. Even if/when new garages are built closer to the stadium, there will still be the case that "most" of the parking options will be in the CBD just by virtue of there already being so many garages there. Not sure how many people will be willing to walk from the Macy's garage (1600 spaces) up to the stadium... but people will figure it out. If you don't want to spend a lot of money and don't mind walking, then you have lots of options within a 10-15 minute walk.

 

image.thumb.png.7bedf83e041c98b76460914948ac2e47.png

 

All of this effort is going into mapping out parking garages, and I wonder if this has even crossed anyone's mind:

  • On game days, direct people to park at The Banks.
  • Have people pay on entry into the garage. They will receive a validated parking ticket with a special "FCC game day" design or color. Tell people to keep the ticket with them.
  • This special ticket can be presented as valid fare for up to four people on the streetcar.
  • After returning to The Banks, insert the ticket at the garage exit.

The county would get extra revenue from The Banks garage on a day when people wouldn't usually be parking there (en masse). They would save the cost of needing to build a large garage near the FCC stadium. They would pay a certain percentage of their revenue from that day to SORTA to cover the streetcar fare. It's really a win-win for everyone.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

All of this effort is going into mapping out parking garages, and I wonder if this has even crossed anyone's mind:

  • On game days, direct people to park at The Banks.
  • Have people pay on entry into the garage. They will receive a validated parking ticket with a special "FCC game day" design or color. Tell people to keep the ticket with them.
  • This special ticket can be presented as valid fare for up to four people on the streetcar.
  • After returning to The Banks, insert the ticket at the garage exit.

The county would get extra revenue from The Banks garage on a day when people wouldn't usually be parking there (en masse). They would save the cost of needing to build a large garage near the FCC stadium. They would pay a certain percentage of their revenue from that day to SORTA to cover the streetcar fare. It's really a win-win for everyone.

 

The issue is the current streetcar isn’t up to the task. If the city isn’t running all five of these and keeping an eye on route blockages it’s not going to deliver enough people to the game in time. I suggested FCC sponsoring more service (running more than three streetcars) on game days on Twitter but was shouted down by FCC super fans who said the owners are already paying $200 million for the stadium and the city should have to pay for that.

 

If the team wants to take a laissez faire approach towards parking, I’m OK with that, it’s better than tearing down a whole bunch of historic buildings to throw up new garages insensitive to the urban form.

 

Has the gravel lot on Central Parkway north of Sam Adam’s brewery and Findlay Street that is used to store semi truck trailers been considered for a garage? With all the development in the market area (particularly with the rehabbed Film Center building) I would say that’s a “not too scary” place for suburbanites to park & walk and also could serve the market. 

Edited by thebillshark

www.cincinnatiideas.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

 

The issue is the current streetcar isn’t up to the task. If the city isn’t running all five of these and keeping an eye on route blockages it’s not going to deliver enough people to the game in time. I suggested FCC sponsoring more service (running more than three streetcars) on game days on Twitter but was shouted down by FCC super fans saying the owners are already paying $200 million for the stadium and the city should have to pay for that.

 

If the team wants to take a laissez faire approach towards parking, I’m OK with that, it’s better than tearing down a whole bunch of historic buildings to throw up new garages insensitive to the urban form.

 

Has the gravel lot on Central Parkway north of Sam Adam’s brewery and Findlay Street that is used to store semi truck trailers been considered for a garage? With all the development in the market area (particularly with the rehabbed Film Center building) I would say that’s a “not too scary” place for suburbanites to park & walk and also could serve the market. 

I'm becoming more annoyed daily by FCC. If they don't care if their fans get to games on time...why should the taxpayers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^I think the team cares a lot about the parking situation and are trying to get as much parking as close to the stadium as possible. Fans on Twitter arguing about parking garages and streetcars often don't know what they're talking about. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The streetcar is too far away to be a significant factor for events at this stadium and the streetcars are too small to handle the crowds anyway.  The MBTA lines up 3-4 double-length coupled green line streetcars outside Fenway Park toward the end of each game.  Each is significantly larger than our streetcars, and the station is right outside the stadium.   

 

The MTA doesn't adjust the subway schedule for Yankees games at all.   Most let out late night or on weekend days, so several thousand people get on a single subway platform, crush-load the first train that comes along, and then it's a 15-minute wait for the next one.  All the while the crowd gets anxious and keeps pushing people toward the edge of the platform. 

 

Our subway with its 300-foot platforms could run trains with four 75ft cars.  So a total train capacity of 500-600 people, or roughly half of a NYC subway train, and about as much as our entire 5 streetcar fleet at crush capacity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People will get to the new stadium in different ways. Some will come down earlier and spend time in OTR before the game and park in the Ziegler, Mercer, or Washington Park garages. Some will take transit or Uber and not have the need to park a car. Some will park in various garages downtown and walk. I just think that it makes sense for the county and city to encourage people to use existing garages that we have already spent money to build, and throwing in streetcar fare would be a good way to encourage some people to do that. I don't expect that crush loads of fans will stream out of the stadium and on to the streetcar to ride down to The Banks immediately following the game. But if even 1,000 fans take advantage of that deal, that's somewhere between 300-500 vehicles that are parked down at The Banks that we don't need to account for in a new garage right next to the stadium.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

The streetcar is too far away to be a significant factor for events at this stadium and the streetcars are too small to handle the crowds anyway.  The MBTA lines up 3-4 double-length coupled green line streetcars outside Fenway Park toward the end of each game.  Each is significantly larger than our streetcars, and the station is right outside the stadium.   

 

The MTA doesn't adjust the subway schedule for Yankees games at all.   Most let out late night or on weekend days, so several thousand people get on a single subway platform, crush-load the first train that comes along, and then it's a 15-minute wait for the next one.  All the while the crowd gets anxious and keeps pushing people toward the edge of the platform. 

 

Our subway with its 300-foot platforms could run trains with four 75ft cars.  So a total train capacity of 500-600 people, or roughly half of a NYC subway train, and about as much as our entire 5 streetcar fleet at crush capacity. 

I agree that the streetcar will have capacity issues but I disagree strongly with the assertion that the stadium is too far away from the streetcar route to be a significant factor. From Liberty&Elm stop it is one block west using Wade Street. 

 

Really what you could do to utilize parking at the Banks is have a whole bunch of shuttle busses lined up in the Riverfront Transit Center that take Central Avenue north directly to the stadium.

Edited by thebillshark

www.cincinnatiideas.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^I'm unconvinced that this stadium is capable of causing any sort of significant traffic problem.  Everyone is over-thinking it.  A 25,000-person event simply isn't that big in a city like ours.  Liberty alone has direct access to every interstate highway, and Central Parkway will actually be full for the first time since I-75 opened in 1963. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There will be traffic after the game. For the past 3 years I've gone down to Meck or Fries by 5:00-5:30 to pregame before the match and have never had a problem with traffic or parking. The supporter groups will pick a handful of bars that will be slammed every match day by 6pm but many fans will start trickling in for drinking and food by 4pm. Plus a lot of families will come down for dinner before the match. Nearly all 25,000 fans will be leaving at 9pm and this will probably cause heavy traffic for a bit on Liberty, Central and Ezzard Charles from 9pm to 9:30pm but that'll be it. MLK to 71 North is usually completely clogged up from the on-ramp back to Vine currently after the matches. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect Sam Adams finally pulled the trigger on building their tap room with the hopes of becoming a major pre/post-game spot. If that wasn't part of their idea, the stadium situation certainly is serendipitous for them.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, cincydave8 said:

There will be traffic after the game. For the past 3 years I've gone down to Meck or Fries by 5:00-5:30 to pregame before the match and have never had a problem with traffic or parking. The supporter groups will pick a handful of bars that will be slammed every match day by 6pm but many fans will start trickling in for drinking and food by 4pm. Plus a lot of families will come down for dinner before the match. Nearly all 25,000 fans will be leaving at 9pm and this will probably cause heavy traffic for a bit on Liberty, Central and Ezzard Charles from 9pm to 9:30pm but that'll be it. MLK to 71 North is usually completely clogged up from the on-ramp back to Vine currently after the matches. 

 

I live and work near UC and so have gotten caught in the traffic many times.  The new stadium will be significantly smaller than the existing one and the roads leading to and from it are much more straightforward. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The capacity of the new stadium will be about what the average attendance was last year. The occasional 30k+ game last year won't happen, but expect just about every game to be a sell out with ~25k.

 

I agree that the streets around the new stadium will probably be a little easier to clear out than the ones around UC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/14/2018 at 8:52 AM, Robuu said:

I suspect Sam Adams finally pulled the trigger on building their tap room with the hopes of becoming a major pre/post-game spot. If that wasn't part of their idea, the stadium situation certainly is serendipitous for them.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing when I checked it out on a visit to Cincinnati back around Thanksgiving.  Also that tap room is extremely convenient to the streetcar, I think the issue is more cultural if Cincinnatians will use the streetcar - IMO it wouldn't hurt to incentivize  its use on game days.  Given transit usage percentages I don't see it being crush loads ala Boston's green line which already struggles with overcrowding on normal days.

 

 

Seeing  the subway get usage for this would be amazing but its totally a pipe dream.

Edited by neilworms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The team is going to have to push the city to keep the streetcar moving. Whether they get the parking garage(s) on site or not, there will still be a lot of people who plan on utilizing the streetcar on game days. I don't expect cars to be regularly over capacity and leaving people at the station unless the city completely drops the ball on the game days.

 

If there are 4 cars running the route and the police are doing a good job keeping the lanes clear, there shouldn't be any issues. The team has to take the initiative to pressure the city into doing this though, and publicly call them out if they are failing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

The team is going to have to push the city to keep the streetcar moving. Whether they get the parking garage(s) on site or not, there will still be a lot of people who plan on utilizing the streetcar on game days. I don't expect cars to be regularly over capacity and leaving people at the station unless the city completely drops the ball on the game days.

 

If there are 4 cars running the route and the police are doing a good job keeping the lanes clear, there shouldn't be any issues. The team has to take the initiative to pressure the city into doing this though, and publicly call them out if they are failing.

 

 

Given the local culture will they care about this as a potential asset though?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If their fans care, they will care. If they don't have plenty of parking on site, and tell people to use other parking garages, I think they would chew out the administration if it becomes a problem. They don't want to lose season ticket holders because the parking isn't close and the streetcar isn't run well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, neilworms said:

Seeing  the subway get usage for this would be amazing but its totally a pipe dream.

 

They need to get the waterworks pipe out of there before anything can happen.  Also, the legs of the Music Hall skywalk are still in there obstructing the southbound tube (the same one was the water main). 

 

I talked to Paul Grether 2-3 years ago in person about using the streetcars in the subway.  He saw no problem in having streetcars in the subway surface and join the existing Main/Walnut tracks downtown.  He also said that the FTA "loves" to award grants for use of existing infrastructure.  So in short, if we had a city government that actually gave a damn, we could get the subway renovated for streetcars essentially for free.  We could build all the way to Northside for very little city money since the ROW is still in city possession all the way from the north portal to Cincinnati State 

 

If the City vacated the city maintenance garage, that 5~ acre space could be sold to a developer for a big-time TOD.  Excellent transit access, direct interstate highway access, and visibility from I-75.   

 

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

If their fans care, they will care. If they don't have plenty of parking on site, and tell people to use other parking garages, I think they would chew out the administration if it becomes a problem. They don't want to lose season ticket holders because the parking isn't close and the streetcar isn't run well.

 

Do you think supporters groups should/could shoulder some responsibility of this type of education? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...