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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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Full 131 pages of planning documents have been posted: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/assets/File/FCC West End Stadium.pdf

 

Not sure if there's anything of interest in there beyond what's already been reported. I have mixed feelings about entirely shutting down a section of Central Parkway during games for pedestrian use only. It would be great if there was a solution that made the area more pedestrian friendly all the time and not just during events. But I'm not sure what can really be done with such a wide street. 

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I would imagine the street would only be closed for about 1 hour starting at 45 minutes before kickoff, and then another 30-60 minutes at the end of the game. I don't know if they want to utilize the street for activities like they do at Sheakley Lawn. If they do that, then it would have to be shut down for several hours before the game.

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Of note in this packet are sections and elevations of the building, that of which have not been seen or shared yet. As a neighbor to this site, this has been the representation I have been waiting for to truly understand its impact on the immediate neighborhood. Because we've asked Elevar and Turner to produce some renderings that show the building from the street and they haven't, I'm planning to model it myself. Once I get some time to do this, I'll post some of those results as well.

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10 minutes ago, taestell said:

The fact that the team wants to close Central Parkway might explain why they aren't so keen on narrowing Liberty Street.

 

It's pretty ridiculous that they are not only permanently closing Central Ave. (it closed on Monday) but expecting to also close Central Parkway on game days.  Plus, they'll likely be blocking off City West to non-residents and screwing around with John St. in some fashion on game days. 

 

I wouldn't put it past them to try and get the city to build some sort of permanent tailgating stuff out in the parkway median.  Oh, and drive some pipes down in the subway so now something else is down there to obstruct its conversion to transit. 

 

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Interesting nugget. Parking study included 500 spaces from a new Hamilton County garage at Liberty and Central. But also this: “Hamilton County is considering a second garage constructed on the area of Findlay Market. Since the exact size and location of the second garage is unknown at this time, it is not included in this inventory.” Where would that go? 


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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2 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

Interesting nugget. Parking study included 500 spaces from a new Hamilton County garage at Liberty and Central. But also this: “Hamilton County is considering a second garage constructed on the area of Findlay Market. Since the exact size and location of the second garage is unknown at this time, it is not included in this inventory.” Where would that go? 

 

Under Central Parkway.  Ruin the subway forever. 

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The elevations in this packet show a lot more exposed seating/structure than shown on the renderings, especially on the Northwest corner. In the birdseye rendering that is completely covered in the ETFE material, but in the renderings there are thinner bands of the ETFE with much more exposed structure. 

 

Edit: Also this shows the "future development" as a surface parking lot along Central Parkway. I'm always suspect of surface parking ever going away, so I would rather see that built as a stub structure waiting for tenants. 

Edited by ucgrady

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4 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

Interesting nugget. Parking study included 500 spaces from a new Hamilton County garage at Liberty and Central. But also this: “Hamilton County is considering a second garage constructed on the area of Findlay Market. Since the exact size and location of the second garage is unknown at this time, it is not included in this inventory.” Where would that go? 

My guess would be that it would still be close to the stadium. Maybe where the old boys and girls club is? I know they are turning that into a parking lot for the time being but they may be working with the liberty and elm developers to put a garage there. 

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As FC Cincinnati presents its development plans, still no resolution over key property’s fate

 

Days after sending its development plans to the city as well as showing them to leaders in Over-the-Rhine and the West End, FC Cincinnati has not resolved with the Cincinnati Ballet what will happen with its property and parking lot, which are key pieces of the development site.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/11/28/as-fc-cincinnati-presents-its-development-plans.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

The elevations in this packet show a lot more exposed seating/structure than shown on the renderings, especially on the Northwest corner. In the birdseye rendering that is completely covered in the ETFE material, but in the renderings there are thinner bands of the ETFE with much more exposed structure. 

 

Edit: Also this shows the "future development" as a surface parking lot along Central Parkway. I'm always suspect of surface parking ever going away, so I would rather see that built as a stub structure waiting for tenants. 

I am pretty sure the parking along Central Parkway is 2 levels of structured parking, which might be partially underground. You can see ramps in the plans showing the parking on Level 1 and Level 2, and then the buildings and plaza will cover the parking on Levels 3 and up. 

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At least 500 cars could be parked on Central Parkway itself between 14th and Wade. 

 

This would be interesting as part of the fight against building Central Parkway above the finished subway in the mid-1920s was that all of the informal parking spaces on the dirt above the tunnels would be lost. 

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Also, the 400-space underground garage planned for the SW corner of Wade & Central Parkway will mostly serve whatever is built above it, likely a 150+ room hotel.  So between employees and guests, few spaces will remain for game day patrons. 

 

Plus, the vague 500-space county-built garage a block north could end up being a Dallas Donut situation -- or more accurately, a "Banks" situation where we have separate garages for residents in apartments and then game day/office. 

 

Also, look at the expected close date for Litehouse -- Dec 31, 2018.  So the rumors were true -- we're going to see tons of properties in that area close on or around that date, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, Revelation Baptist, Feast of Love, Odd Lots, etc. 

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8 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Under Central Parkway.  Ruin the subway forever. 

If only it was part of their master plan to help fund a line using the subway tunnel with a stop right next to the stadium and then going through Clifton up to serve oakley/hyde park/mason/west chester since I remember reading most of the fans are from those areas...

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I noticed for Wade St/Central Parkway future development, the document noted "Convenience/Food Market"

 

How much do you want to bet one of them will be a UDF convenience store that will appear eerily similar to the new UDF store on Short North in Columbus? 

 

If FCC follows through with the future development phase, I will be truly impressed. Adding a hotel, new residential, bars/restaurants, banks, Daycare, Office Space was something that West End, and Central Parkway needed. Even with the rapidly gentrifying state of OTR, I would've have never envisioned West End developing all of these institutions on its own in a  10-20 year time span. So for all of those naysayers about FCC being located in the West End, I say god bless FCC and the Lindners making the West End attractive and viable again. 

Edited by troeros

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OTR really isn't gentrifying that fast.  I remember when one of my friends was last in town in 2012, we drove south on Vine and I pointed to the spot where the bars and restaurants started, and it has only crept a half block north in the ensuing six years.  Vine north of Liberty remains a no-man's land. 

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2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

OTR really isn't gentrifying that fast.  I remember when one of my friends was last in town in 2012, we drove south on Vine and I pointed to the spot where the bars and restaurants started, and it has only crept a half block north in the ensuing six years.  Vine north of Liberty remains a no-man's land. 

 

To be fair, it took 3cdc to be the first pioneers to invest in OTR and show a proof of concept. You can definitely see a wave of new investors both local and out of state begin to invest in otr. 

 

I will argue that while the gentrification of otr hasn't necessarily exploded compared to some east coast city neighborhoods, you can still see a quite intense push that's only been increasing year over year. 

 

I would also add that walking in otr during 2012, compared to today is literally night and day. Even in a year, just by adding a handful of restaurants and businesses, main Street feels so much more active and lively compared to last year when it was mostly dead during the day and weekdays. 

 

OTR is about small battles IMO. 

 

 

Edited by troeros

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8 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

OTR really isn't gentrifying that fast.  I remember when one of my friends was last in town in 2012, we drove south on Vine and I pointed to the spot where the bars and restaurants started, and it has only crept a half block north in the ensuing six years.  Vine north of Liberty remains a no-man's land. 

While Vine St south of Liberty hasn't moved much north since 2012 the streets next to it between Race and Main have completely changed.  Back in 2012 you couldn't walk very safely except for Vine and Main and now that entire area is filled with developed buildings.  Once the Vine St Kroger is closed that will be when 3CDC makes their next total block investment.  I don't think anyone wants to make any large investments on buildings facing Liberty until the road diet is figured out. 

 

Vine north of Liberty is going to remain no man's land for a while until someone is brave enough to make a go at it.  At the current rate I don't think anyone is going to start something on Vine until the Findlay Market renovations creep all that way east.  Renovating Findlay Playground would also help convince people to spend money in that area.  

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Findlay Playground and the Findlay Market Parking lot as the parking garages suggested by the county would be a catalyst for ramped up development north of Liberty. Sort of off topic but with the office development taking place at 15th and Vine, I imagine 15th, Vine, and Liberty becoming a bit of a office hub in Over-the-Rhine.

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Development creeping up Vine has paused, probably pending the Kroger closure. But development on Race and Elm, north (and south) of Liberty, is picking up fast.

Edited by Robuu

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10 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

OTR really isn't gentrifying that fast.  I remember when one of my friends was last in town in 2012, we drove south on Vine and I pointed to the spot where the bars and restaurants started, and it has only crept a half block north in the ensuing six years.  Vine north of Liberty remains a no-man's land. 

 

If 3CDC would have continued their "march up Vine Street" they would be all the way to Liberty by now. However after the first couple of block of Vine Street were redeveloped, they shifted much of their effort to other parts of the neighborhood.

 

I still have a gut feeling that 3CDC is planning a major Mercer Commons-style project (but even larger than Mercer Commons) on the OTR Kroger block. But they don't control the OTR Kroger site yet, and they probably would want to acquire the rest of the land on that block that is currently owned by the Wades, which might be tricky if their divorce isn't finalized yet.

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10 hours ago, troeros said:

 

To be fair, it took 3cdc to be the first pioneers to invest in OTR and show a proof of concept. You can definitely see a wave of new investors both local and out of state begin to invest in otr. 

 

A ton of people put money in OTR in the 1990s but lost their investments.  There were a ton of bars there in the 90s as well as new condos, office renovations, etc.  The only thing left from "old" Main St. is Mr. Pitifull's and condos like this:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1602229/111-E-Thirteenth-St-1-Cincinnati-OH-45202

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1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

A ton of people put money in OTR in the 1990s but lost their investments.  There were a ton of bars there in the 90s as well as new condos, office renovations, etc.  The only thing left from "old" Main St. is Mr. Pitifull's and condos like this:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1602229/111-E-Thirteenth-St-1-Cincinnati-OH-45202

I've been in that unit before. It's a studio condo which is strange, the table mirror thing is a murphy bed. 

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4 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

A ton of people put money in OTR in the 1990s but lost their investments.  There were a ton of bars there in the 90s as well as new condos, office renovations, etc.  The only thing left from "old" Main St. is Mr. Pitifull's and condos like this:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1602229/111-E-Thirteenth-St-1-Cincinnati-OH-45202

 

I wasn't around during the 90's. Was the main investment in otr at main St?

 

Because looking at Google maps the majority of otr looked like a warzone. 

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Main was definitely the center, with some activity on Sycamore and 12th.  There were also a lot of art galleries in the Main St. storefronts (all of them are gone) and 3-4 over on Clay St.  The OTR gallery walk was a pretty big deal and it took 2+ hours to get through all of them including the Pendleton arts center. 

 

There were at least 15 bars on Main St. at its peak from 1998-2003.  Then it dropped all the way down to just two, Mr. Pitifull's and Jefferson Hall, then Jefferson Hall moved to NOTL and for 2~ year Mr. Pitifull's was the only thing left, along with Kaldi's coffee shop.  Kaldi's closed around the time that Neon's reopened under new ownership.   

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8 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I wasn't around during the 90's. Was the main investment in otr at main St?

 

Because looking at Google maps the majority of otr looked like a warzone. 

LQ actually did a good job with this in-depth profile of OTR in 2001. Worth watching at least the first ten minutes or so:

 


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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23 minutes ago, Traveler Joe said:

Trying to remember how much time passed from Coopers closing to Motr opening.

 

At least 8 years.  Almost everything closed in 2003.  I think Motr opened around 2011, maybe 2012. 

 

I remember still being able to seethe interior signage for Bar Cincinnati around 2012. 

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Not to get too off topic but there was still quite a bit of places hanging on into 2005/2006.  I feel like Coopers shut down around then, Alchemize moved to northside in maybe 06 or 07.  Courtyard Cafe was still kicking in '08 as well and while I only went there once or twice I feel like Harrys was still around in 2005. I feel like this may open some kind of pandoras box for me.

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8 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Main was definitely the center, with some activity on Sycamore and 12th.  There were also a lot of art galleries in the Main St. storefronts (all of them are gone) and 3-4 over on Clay St.  The OTR gallery walk was a pretty big deal and it took 2+ hours to get through all of them including the Pendleton arts center. 

 

There were at least 15 bars on Main St. at its peak from 1998-2003.  Then it dropped all the way down to just two, Mr. Pitifull's and Jefferson Hall, then Jefferson Hall moved to NOTL and for 2~ year Mr. Pitifull's was the only thing left, along with Kaldi's coffee shop.  Kaldi's closed around the time that Neon's reopened under new ownership.   

My friend used to hang out at kaldi's and still misses it.

I think you might be generalizing about vine in 2012. I feel like it was only taste of Belgium, Venice on vine,  the indian/african nicnac  store (cant remember the name) and senate then and literally nothing else...me and him used to take pictures of all of the abandoned storefronts and graffiti back then.

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2 hours ago, climberguy714 said:

My friend used to hang out at kaldi's and still misses it.

I think you might be generalizing about vine in 2012. I feel like it was only taste of Belgium, Venice on vine,  the indian/african nicnac  store (cant remember the name) and senate then and literally nothing else...me and him used to take pictures of all of the abandoned storefronts and graffiti back then.

 

Yes, Vine in 2012 is nothing like what it is today. Even in 2012 it still felt like walking around otr was somewhat of an edgy thing to do. It was still in the shadow of it's crime ridden past. 

 

It felt like true momentum was built when more of the restaurant corridor was filled out. Especially on neighboring intersection streets like republic/Walut/race, etc. 

 

Still a long ways to go, but if anything otr has very much shed it's previous image of being the scary big bad wolf neighborhood. Look on r/Cincinnati on Reddit and you will see it's one of the most desired places to live in Cincy, and one of the most popular areas to eat, drink and party. That alone is the biggest difference from where we are at today and from where we were 7 years ago.

 

 

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16 hours ago, JYP said:

LQ actually did a good job with this in-depth profile of OTR in 2001. Worth watching at least the first ten minutes or so:

 

I've read lots of stuff on Buddy Gray but was too young to remember much about pre riots OTR besides that it was bad.  Those ReStoc people were absolutely terrible for the community.  

Edited by Cincy513

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A lot of those ReStoc people are now part of OTR Community Housing.  While the re-branded organization isn't as bad as it was, many of the same attitudes and behaviors exist in the organization.  Many of their employees/supporters were the ones protesting at the re-opening of Washington Park.


"Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett 

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9 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Yes, Vine in 2012 is nothing like what it is today. Even in 2012 it still felt like walking around otr was somewhat of an edgy thing to do. It was still in the shadow of it's crime ridden past. 

 

The Sheriff's Patrols in 2006 put an end to the collusion between Cincinnati Police and area drug dealers in Over-the-Rhine.  Si Leis ordered the temporary patrols with the aim to then end them and put pressure on the county to pass his jail tax.  Not only did the jail tax not pass, the crime never returned to pre-patrol levels.  The patrols lasted long enough for activity to move to other neighborhoods where it has since kept a relatively low profile due to drug activity switching to cell phones. 

 

Nobody was willing to say out loud what was so glaringly obvious -- Cincinnati Police officers were individually and as a group colluding with drug dealers.  They acted like it was impossible for crime to be reigned in, but then the Sheriff came in and ended it in a week. 

 

Buddy Gray, et al., loved the chaos.  They needed the chaos.  It kept them in the news.  They were all from rich families and being in the news meant they got to dominate dinner conversation at their family get-togethers. 

 

 

 

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That video was really interesting, and as person who was growing up around that time (I was 13 when the riots happened) I only got bits of pieces of the story filtered through my parent's lens of the world. I never knew some of those places like Empire Theater even existed. I feel like that piece shows why the gentrification argument is so difficult, because the alternative is stagnation at best or decay at worst. 

 

I love the reporter talking about "tourists" coming to OTR with a tone of disbelief, and now here we are talking about a 26,000 seat stadium next to a revitalized Music Hall, in front of a re-imagined Washington Park, near an booming Vine Street commercial corridor etc. etc. I too get pessimistic about the pace of development compared to cities like Columbus and Nashville, but watching that video really does help put it into perspective. 

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1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

That video was really interesting, and as person who was growing up around that time (I was 13 when the riots happened) I only got bits of pieces of the story filtered through my parent's lens of the world. I never knew some of those places like Empire Theater even existed. I feel like that piece shows why the gentrification argument is so difficult, because the alternative is stagnation at best or decay at worst. 

 

I love the reporter talking about "tourists" coming to OTR with a tone of disbelief, and now here we are talking about a 26,000 seat stadium next to a revitalized Music Hall, in front of a re-imagined Washington Park, near an booming Vine Street commercial corridor etc. etc. I too get pessimistic about the pace of development compared to cities like Columbus and Nashville, but watching that video really does help put it into perspective. 

 

That perspective can be somewhat misleading since Nashville and Columbus don't really have large urban neighborhoods like OTR. 

 

Funny enough, walking around the old town of Havana City center sort of reminded me of otr. Lots of abandoned buildings being revitalized and repurposed again.

.

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Columbus has much more 19th century and prewar stuff than Nashville. 

 

Look up historic photos of the Tennessee State House and you can see everything Nashville tore down for urban renewal.  It was a significant loss but about a square mile of single-family detached homes, not row homes or row buildings 

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