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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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You of all people 1400 should know that OTR needs more parking.  Until they change parking requirements for new development (which I'll believe that when I see it) more parking is needed in that area.  Right now the Washington park garage is pretty much full for residential and worker monthly spots and with the stadium being built there it's only going to lead to further development around that area.  Both of these new garages will provide needed spots for restaurants, residents and workers everyday in the neighborhood as well as for all the other attractions in the area that would get use out of them: Music Hall, Memorial Hall, Shakespeare Company, Washington Park, FC Games, other events at FC stadium, events at Stargel stadium, SCPA events, ect. They'll certainly get used and be a money maker for the city/county/FC. 

. . . .

 

Although my parking is solved thanks to a 400 car underground garage across the street, I do appreciate the need for more rational parking requirements throughout OTR and for garages to be built. But, accommodating 10,000 cars a couple dozen days a year just does not deserve a garage. It deserves surface parking out in the wide open spaces.

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The city and county do not plan to build anywhere near 10,000 additional parking spaces for the new stadium. It sounds like a total of 1,750 new spaces will be built. Meaning that thousands of people will need to park their cars in other garages around the urban core. The city and the team should encourage people to park at The Banks and take the streetcar to the stadium.

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The city and the team should encourage people to park at The Banks and take the streetcar to the stadium.

 

How many people could the line support, considering they would probably all be wanting to board around the same time?

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The city and the team should encourage people to park at The Banks and take the streetcar to the stadium.

 

How many people could the line support, considering they would probably all be wanting to board around the same time?

 

The only way the streetcar would be up to the task is if they ran all 5 of them and they created transit only lanes for game day


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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The city and the team should encourage people to park at The Banks and take the streetcar to the stadium.

 

How many people could the line support, considering they would probably all be wanting to board around the same time?

 

The only way the streetcar would be up to the task is if they ran all 5 of them and they created transit only lanes for game day

 

Gotcha, I suspected as much. I took the trolley to a Chargers game once and it was not an enjoyable experience.

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The city and the team should encourage people to park at The Banks and take the streetcar to the stadium.

 

How many people could the line support, considering they would probably all be wanting to board around the same time?

 

Soccer games have the benefit (compared to baseball and football) of only taking 2 hours, so it encourages folks to arrive early and/or stay late. In those cases, the streetcar should be a good option. If you're super tight on timing, I would not recommend parking at The Banks and using the streetcar. Then again - if you're timing is flexible - I'd recommend just walking. Within a 15-minute walking radius, you'll have plenty of options.

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The city and the team should encourage people to park at The Banks and take the streetcar to the stadium.

 

How many people could the line support, considering they would probably all be wanting to board around the same time?

 

The only way the streetcar would be up to the task is if they ran all 5 of them and they created transit only lanes for game day

 

Gotcha, I suspected as much. I took the trolley to a Chargers game once and it was not an enjoyable experience.

 

I wouldn't give up on this so easily.

 

First, yes the system does need to be operated efficiently as has been discussed repeatedly on the streetcar thread. But that's true anyway.

 

This would be a terrible way to get to a game if everyone is coming at game time. But many people are going to do something beforehand, probably within walking distance, which would tend to even out the demand on streetcar service.

 

In theory, with 5 cars running at a reliable 15 minute headway, and 267 people max capacity per car, the streetcar could transport 5340 persons/hour from the banks to Liberty and Elm. So if fan arrival was spread out over a couple of hours, you could potentially transport half of the attendees by streetcar. That's optimal of course, so maybe realistically you could do a few thousand. But that's still a significant number, not in the margins.

 

For knowledgable fans coming from outside the basin, landing at the Banks, having dinner and drinks in OTR/WE, and ending up back at the riverfront park when weather is right, sounds pretty nice.

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The thing with the streetcar is that for those downtown, it is not enough of a draw to take it to attractions. It is either easier to walk or they are not located on the streetcar line.

 

Look at the hotels, they are all downtown. Now what are (were) tourists coming to town for. 1) conventions, 2) Sporting events 3) arts.

After that they stay to check out cool areas like OTR but it is not necessarily the draw in and of itself.

So, If you are staying at any downtown hotel, even the 21C or Westin which are both on the streetcar line, you are not taking it to the Reds or Bengals games because of proximity. You cant take it to the convention center, and you cant take it to the Casino. You wont take it to the Aronoff or Taft because of Proximity.

 

So if you are a tourist and you don't know your way around, it makes sense to take it to the soccer game. Now, you have something else, like Music Hall that will draw and encourage out of towners to use it as it goes to a tourist destination. The biggest flaw with the line is that it does not connect enough people who are likely to use it to key destinations in a way that people would use it (You don't need it at the downtown hotels to go to the Reds game) but could use it to go to a Soccer game. This will be very helpful to the Streetcar for that reason alone.

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Mayor Cranley has called a special (FCC) session of City Council on Monday at 4PM. This will follow the normally scheduled Budget & Finance Committee at 1PM.


"It's just fate, as usual, keeping its bargain and screwing us in the fine print..." - John Crichton

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There was all of this same narrative about PBS, how all of these fans from Pittsburgh and Piqua and whatnot were coming to town to stay in hotels, shop at Saks, visit the attractions and drop a load of money.

 

A load of crap is what it was. Bought and paid for by the same clan that is selling the soccer stadium.

 

A few times each year, 20,000 fans will come in, clog the roads, deposit their empties for others to collect, and leave with an FCC logo shirt or hat. And, whatever Berding builds in the West End will be paid for dearly by our taxpayers in one way or another.

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^ TIL all FCC fans live outside the city and are also litter bugs.

 

If they're litter bugs they'll fit right in with the neighborhood West Enders.


"Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett 

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I am also skeptical that the new FCC stadium (and getting MLS) will result in a significant number of new hotel stays. However I think the current deal is a pretty good one. We'll get some refreshed infrastructure surrounding the stadium, CPS will get a nice revenue boost, vacant lots throughout CityWest will finally get filled in with new housing, and the urban core will gain another attraction.

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There was all of this same narrative about PBS, how all of these fans from Pittsburgh and Piqua and whatnot were coming to town to stay in hotels, shop at Saks, visit the attractions and drop a load of money.

 

A load of crap is what it was. Bought and paid for by the same clan that is selling the soccer stadium.

 

A few times each year, 20,000 fans will come in, clog the roads, deposit their empties for others to collect, and leave with an FCC logo shirt or hat. And, whatever Berding builds in the West End will be paid for dearly by our taxpayers in one way or another.

 

Why are you so angry? FCC to MLS will be fun and raise the profile of our city.

 

Maybe you’d be happier on Lexington, KY or Madison, WI.

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I am also skeptical that the new FCC stadium (and getting MLS) will result in a significant number of new hotel stays. However I think the current deal is a pretty good one. We'll get some refreshed infrastructure surrounding the stadium, CPS will get a nice revenue boost, vacant lots throughout CityWest will finally get filled in with new housing, and the urban core will gain another attraction.

 

I think in aggregate, especially as the sport grows it will result in increased tourism. Not as many on a per night basis as a football game per se but more overall because there are more home games. For the soccer fan, there will be a few out of towners who travel for their team (not as many as other sports) and there will also be some regional people who travel from Columbus, Lexington, Indy to see them play too. I personally know a number of people who used to travel to see the Crew from Cincy a few games each year, so it would be reasonable to expect that type of travel too. However, where I see the bigger benefit is that it overlaps with the Reds season and gives additional entertainment options for those who want to take a trip here. Now you could on some occasions take in a baseball and soccer game the same weekend or you at least have a professional sporting event happening in town every weekend during the summer. With football, trips are shorter and often for one night and games don't take place during key vacation times. That is the one key difference with FCC I see that could be a benefit.

 

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The vote passed the budget and finance committee with Seelbach changing his vote from "No" to "abstain". So it passed 4-3 and will be going to the full council now.

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FC Cincinnati stadium site will be a special taxing district

 

The West End site where FC Cincinnati’s $200 million Major League Soccer stadium could be located will have a special taxing district around it that will help fund the cost of the project.

 

Assuming the club gets the required government approvals, between $7 million and $11 million will be raised at the “New Community Authority” that will be established at the site. A special sales tax of 2 percent will be charged on tickets, merchandise and admissions sold from the site.

 

The sales tax at the site would be 9 percent.

 

It’s the first example of one being used in Hamilton County, said Laura Brunner, the CEO of the Greater Cincinnati Redevelopment Authority, whose board gave preliminary approval Monday to its role in the stadium deal. The other, major local example is Liberty Center, the mixed-use outdoor mall and housing project in Liberty Township.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/04/16/fc-cincinnati-stadium-site-will-be-a-special.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Council had some debate today over the fact that the community benefits agreement does not specify any enforcement procedure -- i.e., what happens if FCC agrees that they will give money to community groups and build low income housing as part of the CBA, and then they don't. The council members supporting the deal said "it's a legally binding contract" and Mann seemed very arrogant towards any council members daring to criticize the deal. I just think it's pointless to sign a CBA and play that up as a big win for the community if it doesn't even include some sort of penalty or other repercussions if FCC doesn't follow through.

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Expert pans key part of FC Cincinnati stadium agreement before today’s vote

 

A national expert in community benefit agreements criticized the pact signed Monday by the West End Community Council president and other neighborhood leaders, saying that it is slanted toward the club and has weak enforcement provisions.

 

The CBA is a key part of the stadium deal’s structure with the version unveiled Friday requiring that the City Council give its OK before any of the $35 million in city infrastructure and site preparation funding is released for the project. Councilman Jeff Pastor floated the notion of refusing to vote for the stadium agreement without a CBA being in place and endorsed the CBA at a Monday City Hall news conference.

 

A vote on the full package is set for Monday’s 4 p.m. council meeting. If it passes, FC Cincinnati hopes to receive its Major League Soccer bid.

 

“It’s an obviously one-sided document drafted in favor of the developer,” said Julian Gross, an attorney with PolicyLink who has worked on dozens of such agreements across the country and has given presentations and informally advised the West End and some City Council members on this agreement without pay. “Council members and the public should look at this and see if (it's) the product of a real negotiation to deliver community benefits or a glorified PR play by the developer and other supporters of the project.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/04/16/expert-pans-key-part-of-fc-cincinnati-stadium.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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We should hear MLS announcing our bid this week (hopefully)...

 

And with that folks, we take a step forward. Where that step will take us, who knows. That said, I am hopeful that there will be renewed interested in development once again in the West End, and progress will be continued further in OTR and North of Liberty.

 

I know at the very least, we will see an influx of new bars, resturaunts, cafes, and retail that will service the 25,000 fans on gameday, and our street cars will see more service as well.

 

At the very least, on the 20 or so match days throughout the spring/summer/fall our city will be that more vibrant, and have bustling life and energy. Something cincy needs more of.

 

My final, biggest hope, is that these kids who are giant FCC fans, will come down to OTR/West End, and fall in love with the architecture, the vibrancy, the walkable streets, and when they grow up, have a desire to move down to the urban core as well.

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Council approves FC Cincinnati deal, clearing the way for West End stadium

 

The Cincinnati City Council approved a memorandum of understanding Monday with FC Cincinnati that probably will pave the way for the club to build a Major League Soccer stadium in the West End behind Taft Information Technology High School.

 

The 5-4 vote means the city will provide a major $35 million assistance package to the team, which is co-owned by American Financial Corp. co-CEO Carl Lindner and Cintas Corp. CEO Scott Farmer, that includes funding for infrastructure and traffic improvements and site preparation. That figure does not include $15 million that Hamilton County will provide to build a parking garage.

 

Council members Greg Landsman, Chris Seelbach, Tamaya Dennard and Wendell Young, all Democrats, voted “no” on the ordinance.

 

Most of the city money comes from restricted sources, such as a tax-increment financing district and the city’s share of the county hotel tax, but $6.4 million comes from the city’s share of Blue Ash Airport money and $2.5 million in money from fiscal year 2019’s capital budget. Both are sources that could have gone to general city services and capital needs.

 

“This is very, very positive,” said Mayor John Cranley. “You know who agrees with me? My predecessor, Mayor Mark Mallory. What I’ve heard is prophets of the status quo, who want to do nothing."

 

Full article below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/04/16/council-approves-fc-cincinnati-deal-clearing-the.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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While I tend to agree that the West End needs the community agreement much more than OTR, this behavior by Smitherman is hardly surprising.

 

 

The legislation was subject to several last-minute changes, including severing Over-the-Rhine, which is one block away from the stadium, from a community benefits agreement of which the council must approve in order for FC Cincinnati to receive city funding. City Hall sources say that condition came from Vice Mayor Christopher Smitherman, an independent, who did not immediately return a text seeking comment.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/04/16/council-approves-fc-cincinnati-deal-clearing-the.html


"Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." - Warren Buffett 

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I'm very disappointed that the West End community was not sufficiently engaged by Berding and FCC, but instead a cursory CBA was pushed through at the last minute.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/04/16/expert-pans-key-part-of-fc-cincinnati-stadium.html

 

It's something of a moot point now, I guess, but needs to kept in mind in the future. I'm trying to get over it and just hope things work out for the best, for the benefit of the West End and the vibrancy of the city.

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While I tend to agree that the West End needs the community agreement much more than OTR, this behavior by Smitherman is hardly surprising.

 

 

The legislation was subject to several last-minute changes, including severing Over-the-Rhine, which is one block away from the stadium, from a community benefits agreement of which the council must approve in order for FC Cincinnati to receive city funding. City Hall sources say that condition came from Vice Mayor Christopher Smitherman, an independent, who did not immediately return a text seeking comment.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/04/16/council-approves-fc-cincinnati-deal-clearing-the.html

 

OTR had no business in the deal. They will tangentially benefit with no interruption into their activities. THis is a benefit to OTR with zero cost. It just screams of coming to the party and asking for a handout when you did not do anything to deserve it. While we are at it, why not make the team sign a CBA including demands from Hyde Park and Oakley.  I would argue Oakley has a bigger beef than OTR in this particular case if we want to play that game.

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Yeah OTR had no business in the deal and they came to the table making ridiculous demands like FC buying another streetcar and extending the track lines.  They took themselves out of the discussions with their stupid demands.  The West End also made some ridiculous requests as well (free wifi for the neighborhood?  seriously?) but they'll get the major things they want: parking permits, more low income housing and gameday controls over traffic, security, littering, lights and noise. 

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Yeah OTR had no business in the deal and they came to the table making ridiculous demands like FC buying another streetcar and extending the track lines.  They took themselves out of the discussions with their stupid demands.  The West End also made some ridiculous requests as well (free wifi for the neighborhood?  seriously?) but they'll get the major things they want: parking permits, more low income housing and gameday controls over traffic, security, littering, lights and noise. 

 

This is incorrect. The ask was to run additional streetcar service on game days, not to buy more streetcars. We have 5 streetcars of which 2 or 3 are in service at any one time. They should run 4 or 5 to meet demand on game days. They are only building 1,750 parking spots for a 21,000 seat stadium, so they will need the streetcar to contribute getting people to the stadium. Current streetcar service levels simply aren’t going to cut it. They’ll find out the hard way I guess.


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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Yeah OTR had no business in the deal and they came to the table making ridiculous demands like FC buying another streetcar and extending the track lines.  They took themselves out of the discussions with their stupid demands.  The West End also made some ridiculous requests as well (free wifi for the neighborhood?  seriously?) but they'll get the major things they want: parking permits, more low income housing and gameday controls over traffic, security, littering, lights and noise. 

 

 

This is incorrect. The ask was to run additional streetcar service on game days, not to buy more streetcars. We have 5 streetcars of which 2 or 3 are in service at any one time. They should run 4 or 5 to meet demand on game days. They are only building 1,750 parking spots for a 21,000 seat stadium, so they will need the streetcar to contribute getting people to the stadium. Current streetcar service levels simply aren’t going to cut it. They’ll find out the hard way I guess.

That is something the city needs to do, not FC.  In no way should FC have to pay to run more streetcars, a city owned public asset, because their game is bringing more people downtown.  By the time this stadium opens though we'll be close to having a new mayor.  So moving forward with the new stadium hopefully the city will actually be proactive with how the streetcar is run during large events downtown. 

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Yeah OTR had no business in the deal and they came to the table making ridiculous demands like FC buying another streetcar and extending the track lines.  They took themselves out of the discussions with their stupid demands.  The West End also made some ridiculous requests as well (free wifi for the neighborhood?  seriously?) but they'll get the major things they want: parking permits, more low income housing and gameday controls over traffic, security, littering, lights and noise. 

 

This is incorrect. The ask was to run additional streetcar service on game days, not to buy more streetcars. We have 5 streetcars of which 2 or 3 are in service at any one time. They should run 4 or 5 to meet demand on game days. They are only building 1,750 parking spots for a 21,000 seat stadium, so they will need the streetcar to contribute getting people to the stadium. Current streetcar service levels simply arent going to cut it. Theyll find out the hard way I guess.

 

That should take care of itself. When demand on Gameday spikes and they can justify the cost, it will be easy to add the streetcar

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Yeah OTR had no business in the deal and they came to the table making ridiculous demands like FC buying another streetcar and extending the track lines.  They took themselves out of the discussions with their stupid demands.  The West End also made some ridiculous requests as well (free wifi for the neighborhood?  seriously?) but they'll get the major things they want: parking permits, more low income housing and gameday controls over traffic, security, littering, lights and noise. 

 

This is incorrect. The ask was to run additional streetcar service on game days, not to buy more streetcars. We have 5 streetcars of which 2 or 3 are in service at any one time. They should run 4 or 5 to meet demand on game days. They are only building 1,750 parking spots for a 21,000 seat stadium, so they will need the streetcar to contribute getting people to the stadium. Current streetcar service levels simply arent going to cut it. Theyll find out the hard way I guess.

 

That should take care of itself. When demand on Gameday spikes and they can justify the cost, it will be easy to add the streetcar

It's not even just about adding another car.  A simple thing like having two cars waiting for when a game gets out would be such an easy thing to but apparently no one thinks/wants to do that. 

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Yeah OTR had no business in the deal and they came to the table making ridiculous demands like FC buying another streetcar and extending the track lines.  They took themselves out of the discussions with their stupid demands.  The West End also made some ridiculous requests as well (free wifi for the neighborhood?  seriously?) but they'll get the major things they want: parking permits, more low income housing and gameday controls over traffic, security, littering, lights and noise. 

 

This is incorrect. The ask was to run additional streetcar service on game days, not to buy more streetcars. We have 5 streetcars of which 2 or 3 are in service at any one time. They should run 4 or 5 to meet demand on game days. They are only building 1,750 parking spots for a 21,000 seat stadium, so they will need the streetcar to contribute getting people to the stadium. Current streetcar service levels simply aren’t going to cut it. They’ll find out the hard way I guess.

 

That should take care of itself. When demand on Gameday spikes and they can justify the cost, it will be easy to add the streetcar

It's not even just about adding another car.  A simple thing like having two cars waiting for when a game gets out would be such an easy thing to but apparently no one thinks/wants to do that. 

 

The problem is the 3 way bureaucracy and contract structure (city, Sorta, Transdev) surrounding the streetcar makes them blind/ties their hands to reacting to what’s going on around them. I don’t think they ran all 5 streetcars even for the Blink festival. Without external partnerships being established (with FC Cincinnati, or the Reds, or Taste of Cincinnati or Oktoberfest or Blink) to accomplish specific service goals I have little hope this situation will change.


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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I am skeptical that the streetcar will play a big roll in ferrying people to or from this soccer stadium, at least right at game time.  The distance between the stadium and the streetcar stations is too vast.  I do expect that use will be somewhat higher throughout the day. 

 

 

 

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There are literally two streetcar stations one block from where the stadium will be.

 

Not really.  The northbound track is on Elm.  The southbound track is on Race, a block (400 feet) further east.  The Race St. stations at Liberty is over 1,000 feet from the stadium and the Race station at Washington Park is more like 1,500+ feet.  I foresee a lot of people hailing a cab on Central Parkway. 

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There are literally two streetcar stations one block from where the stadium will be.

 

Not really.  The northbound track is on Elm.  The southbound track is on Race, a block (400 feet) further east.  The Race St. stations at Liberty is over 1,000 feet from the stadium and the Race station at Washington Park is more like 1,500+ feet.  I foresee a lot of people hailing a cab on Central Parkway. 

 

A lot depends on how exactly the stadium is situated. The closer they can get the entrance to Central Parkway (my understanding is they want to build up to Central Parkway, if they can get all the necessary parcels), the easier it will be for folks to walk 1 block to Elm or 2 blocks to Race.

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^Of course. When cab companies that need to turn a profit have to compete with "tech" firms that are allowed to lose as much money as they want because people "like" the tech firms the cab companies are going to exit the market.

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Because of Nippert's location in the middle of UC's campus, it's at least a quarter mile to any real street anyway. FC fans should be used to walking a few blocks to get to and from the stadium.

 

The problem is the sight lines are blocked by Music Hall and other buildings so if you don't already know it's there, the streetcar wouldn't be obvious at all. It would be helpful to add some signage or wayfinding to draw people over to Washington Park.

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I can't tell you the last time I saw someone use a cab.  And I live downtown. 

 

I took one from the cab stand in front of the Millennium Hotel last month after I dropped off a rental car.  I don't understand why people wait around for an Uber car to show up when a line of cabs are sitting right there ready to roll, aside from the fact that Uber is a completely sleazy business.  Riders and the company profit on the backs of the drivers, who thanks to depreciation of their own vehicles literally make zero money. 

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I think a lot of FCC fans will pregame at bars in OTR before walking over to the stadium. I don't necessarily think many people will take the streetcar "to" the stadium, but many of them will use it getting from point to point (Rhinehaus to Rhinegeist), which is the primary transportation purpose of the streetcar.

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I can't tell you the last time I saw someone use a cab.  And I live downtown. 

 

I took one from the cab stand in front of the Millennium Hotel last month after I dropped off a rental car.  I don't understand why people wait around for an Uber car to show up when a line of cabs are sitting right there ready to roll, aside from the fact that Uber is a completely sleazy business.  Riders and the company profit on the backs of the drivers, who thanks to depreciation of their own vehicles literally make zero money. 

 

Uber tells me what the fare will be in advance and about half the time I'm in a cab they say the credit card machine isn't working.

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I can't tell you the last time I saw someone use a cab.  And I live downtown. 

 

I took one from the cab stand in front of the Millennium Hotel last month after I dropped off a rental car.  I don't understand why people wait around for an Uber car to show up when a line of cabs are sitting right there ready to roll, aside from the fact that Uber is a completely sleazy business.  Riders and the company profit on the backs of the drivers, who thanks to depreciation of their own vehicles literally make zero money. 

 

Uber tells me what the fare will be in advance and about half the time I'm in a cab they say the credit card machine isn't working.

 

Lol I have definitely had this happen where the credit card machine is clearly on and doesn't look like it's not working. Figured it was a scam they do to go around fees etc. I'm like what would you have done if I didn't have cash?

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