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Cincinnati: West End: FC Cincinnati Stadium

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Don't get your hopes up. Stadiums are rarely a catalyst for spin off development unless they're an anchor part of a much larger development project. And even then, it's not really the stadium that's creating the demand.

 

Well it was more in reference to the development that was already occurring. I’m hoping that maybe we will see even more businesses open that will cater to the 25,000 fans in the area on game day and may lead to more retail and more mixed use development

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Yeah I'm guessing like someone mentioned it will probably take off a lot of land that would be developed otherwise but I'm guessing if anything will help solidify that side of Central Parkway and also across the street on Central Parkway. That being just because of the redevelopment of CET parking ramp

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I think the city risks having FC Cincinnati's stadium be a bookend to OTR's redevelopment. Aside from the couple dozen times its used each year, it will be a megablock that's not very pedestrian friendly, on the wrong side of a very wide, non-pedestrian friendly street. Virtually everything west of John Street is/will be affordable/public housing, and any attempt to build something there that isn't will be met with opposition from the community council and other special interests like the Homeless Coalition.

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If the USA/Canada/Mexico bid for 2026 World Cup is selected, AND Cincinnati makes final cut of 16 US cities, would this new FCC stadium be used for games, or would only Paul Brown be used? Since so few large American football stadiums have natural grass, does the bid specify if grass sod will be laid down on all of the turf fields?

 

Here’s a recent-ish article about the bid: https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/cincinnati-still-in-the-running-to-host-2026-world-cup-match

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^ It would be at Paul Brown, World Cup games draw 60-70k fans. It would need to be the larger venue.

 

They would also install natural grass in Paul Brown if they got it per World Cup specs. If you go back to 1994, The Silverdome in Detroit hosted it and they put natural grass in the dome for the World Cup games.

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I think the city risks having FC Cincinnati's stadium be a bookend to OTR's redevelopment. Aside from the couple dozen times its used each year, it will be a megablock that's not very pedestrian friendly, on the wrong side of a very wide, non-pedestrian friendly street. Virtually everything west of John Street is/will be affordable/public housing, and any attempt to build something there that isn't will be met with opposition from the community council and other special interests like the Homeless Coalition.

 

It may be a bookend, but it allows for additional development along the East side of Central and should also spur development South of the stadium too. even if only used 30 times a year, it will give another destination draw for the neighborhood.

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Central Parkway is a huge division in the basin area. I see this potential FCC stadium similar to the new Red Wings arena that was built in Detroit. That stadium was built just on the other side of a major sunken highway, but it still created a large barrier. It's giving more attention to an area of Detroit that has suffered from being cut off with the rest of the downtown area. Little Caesars Arena was a huge mixed use building. We'll see what FCC's stadium is going to be like. It sounds like they want to control some commercial facing the street. If that's true, it could help spur development west of Central Parkway. If it's just a stadium with no other uses, it might not do much except change the perception of the area.

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I’m very curious about how development will proceed in otr/Pendleton/Mt Auburn as the stadium becomes constructed. Will we see more developments? Perhaps those sycamore lots that divide otr and Pendleton will finally be developed?

 

It will have no affect at all on those lots.

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Central Parkway is a huge division in the basin area. I see this potential FCC stadium similar to the new Red Wings arena that was built in Detroit. That stadium was built just on the other side of a major sunken highway, but it still created a large barrier. It's giving more attention to an area of Detroit that has suffered from being cut off with the rest of the downtown area. Little Caesars Arena was a huge mixed use building. We'll see what FCC's stadium is going to be like. It sounds like they want to control some commercial facing the street. If that's true, it could help spur development west of Central Parkway. If it's just a stadium with no other uses, it might not do much except change the perception of the area.

 

Given its orientation toward Central Parkway, it will essentially be inviting people to cross the street. I anticipate initial benefits in the lots adjacent to the stadium with some bars and such (not too many). The growth and benefit will be to the South where the new Stargell will be built because it is closer to the CBD. I think the other side of the stadium may see some new housing but not what people may be hoping for as the stadium will create a wall on that end of the neighborhood. It is still a good overall net benefit.

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For a large (highly publicized) project like this which requires acquiring lots of little properties, in which FCC doesn't have the option to "build around' , what prevents a single property owner from holding out and insisting on some ridiculous price? Like, the Jehovah's Witness church at the corner of Wade/John is in a great bargaining position to refuse to sell for anything less than exorbitant price. I assume FCC has this figured out, and maybe they already have a purchase option... but it just seems like a tricky problem.

 

FCC has said they want to control 75% of site by mid-April for the MLS meeting on April 17. Getting 75% should be easy (I think they already close with the CPS property), but it's the last few properties that will be the hardest and most expensive.

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Between this and the new Stargel, there will exist almost no space for new housing in the west end south of liberty St.  so look for a push into the Oliver/poplar/York area between Central Parkway and Linn sooner than would have happened otherwise.

 

I can't tell you how thrilled I'd be if this scenario plays out for the mere fact of getting Zada into gear to either sell or get going on the Bloom (Baymiller) and Herberle (Freeman) school condo/apartment conversion projects to the NorthWest of the stadium site.

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For a large (highly publicized) project like this which requires acquiring lots of little properties, in which FCC doesn't have the option to "build around' , what prevents a single property owner from holding out and insisting on some ridiculous price?

 

 

Here's where they get really sneaky.  If they don't sell right away, the city will declare that they're going to widen the street and will take it by eminent domain.  I'm concerned that the Stoney Lee Brooks character who owns the two building on Central Ave. will get hosed in this fashion. 

 

 

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What I think it will help the most as far as development goes is possibly kicking into gear the massive amounts of surface lots to the south but possibly more immediately the corner of Central Parkway and Central Parkway right next to the YMCA and then across the street from there at Elm and Central Parkway or Plum and Central Parkway, but that substation certainly doesn't help with blocking the connections.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1038523,-84.5190397,483a,35y,39.28t/data=!3m1!1e3

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For a large (highly publicized) project like this which requires acquiring lots of little properties, in which FCC doesn't have the option to "build around' , what prevents a single property owner from holding out and insisting on some ridiculous price? Like, the Jehovah's Witness church at the corner of Wade/John is in a great bargaining position to refuse to sell for anything less than exorbitant price. I assume FCC has this figured out, and maybe they already have a purchase option... but it just seems like a tricky problem.

 

FCC has said they want to control 75% of site by mid-April for the MLS meeting on April 17. Getting 75% should be easy (I think they already close with the CPS property), but it's the last few properties that will be the hardest and most expensive.

 

In one of the maps that was posted a few pages back, they showed that they didn't need the Jehovah's Witness church land to build the stadium.

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The surface lot across Central between Odeon and Wade will now become prime real estate.  Just south of that there is some land that could get much better use as well.  There are a couple buildings that I don't know what they do, an electrical tower and then some paved surface for what looks like parking.  Not sure who owns any of this land but it will be right across the street from the stadium so I'm sure some people will be trying to buy it up. 

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The surface lot across Central between Odeon and Wade will now become prime real estate. 

 

That is used for parking by the office that's in that old school.  That's where you get replacement birth certificates if you were born in Hamilton County.  Seems like replacement purpose-built offices could be incorporated into new development and that school could be renovated into residential. 

 

 

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^The Elm Street Health Center is more than just a place to get birth certificates. It also provides medical/dental care to the uninsured/under-insured.

 

I do hope that the development around the new stadium is not just bars/restaurants. OTR and the West End need space for clinics, doctor offices, and other basic services. OTR has shown there's a lot of demand for office space. (I'm also dreaming that the Crossroad Health Center at Liberty/Vine could be persuaded to do a landswap if they could get nice space in a newly designed facility).

 

 

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This morning I drove Liberty west from Vine and realized how imposing the stadium is going to be from the Liberty/Central Parkway intersection.  It's really going to change the feel of the place, hopefully for the better. 

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I'm going to be very interested to see what the stadium will look like and how it will be built.  Will they keep the same model as the mock ups?  Or will they tone it down some and try to get it to fit the neighborhood better?  Will they build it into the ground so it's not hulking over the neighborhood? 

 

All of this could be moot if it doesn't end up passing though.  Still holding my breath a little until it's completely official. 

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Many years ago I used to drive down Central past the Mohawk neighborhood and think how much character it has and how it could be like Northside or what OTR is becoming today if only there was something that could draw people to that side of the street. While not Mohawk,  I think the stadium could do this to the West End area. Now it will not be a huge area that is affected (after all see what the Banks are today) but even if it brings progress and investment to 3-4 blocks it is a good starting point to develop out from there. Central Parkway will always be a wall and this helps to bridge that wall some.

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For those that aren't aware, the stadium design was always going to change based off the neighborhood. Jason Williams tweeted in March how if FCC built there stadium in the West End, the stadium would fit the anesthetics of the neighborhood. From what I recall hearing, it would have an emphasis on brick.

 

Also, like others mentioned, it won't be just a stadium. Part of the land will include other mixed use development. Also, the stadium won't just host matches, but will be a community asset. It will include, "movie night" under the stars during away matches, and other such community activities....Though probably no playing on the field because of the expensive turf.

 

Regardless, this will be a big asset for OTR/West End. Finally, central parkway will look less like an undesirable canyon gap, and will perhaps lead to future growth down the road.

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For a large (highly publicized) project like this which requires acquiring lots of little properties, in which FCC doesn't have the option to "build around' , what prevents a single property owner from holding out and insisting on some ridiculous price?

 

 

Here's where they get really sneaky.  If they don't sell right away, the city will declare that they're going to widen the street and will take it by eminent domain.  I'm concerned that the Stoney Lee Brooks character who owns the two building on Central Ave. will get hosed in this fashion.

 

I know little about Ohio's eminent domain law, other than there was a Norwood case that went to the supreme court and it was decided land taken by eminent domain cannot go to private developers (that may be an oversimplification). I wonder if the port authority (or whatever it's called these days) isn't a more important piece of this puzzle than had been thought. They may be planning on getting around this law by having the land technically owned by a public entity.

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^ Not so much Ohio's law but in the decision from the SC about 15 years back, they said that any such eminent domain had to be used for a public purpose like roads, schools, etc and not for private developers. With Rookwood, Norwood was using the eminent domain to force owners to sell to a private developer to allow them to build a newer, expensive development which would maximize potential tax revenues to the city. The benefit to the city was increased tax revenue and nothing more. THis was deemed to be an illegal use of eminent domain because the primary benefit was a private developer. In this case, while a private developer will tangentially benefit here, the widening of the roads is a public works project that would qualify as a legitimate use of eminent domain.

 

 

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^My post was a day early, as Stoney Lee Brooks has sold his two properties to FC Cincinnati West End Ventures for $375,000 more than he paid for them in 2014. 

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1510 - 1514 Central Ave have been sold to FCC.

 

You guys think these historic cluster of  buildings are doomed for the wrecking ball? Or perhaps they might be saved and incorporated into the design of the stadium? I'm not sure what the footprint of the fcc stadium will be, so i'm not sure how the land on central ave will play a role..

 

Personally speaking, I really hope they aren't demo'd, but I fear they will be.

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School board approves West End land swap for FC Cincinnati stadium

 

The Cincinnati Public Schools Board of Education unanimously approved a land swap on Tuesday night that will help pave the way for FC Cincinnati to build a Major League Soccer stadium in the West End.

 

The vote ends months of back and forth between the board and the club, which is hoping to land a new stadium and receive a Major League Soccer bid sometime soon. The issue now moves to the Cincinnati City Council, where one member who may hold a swing vote on city approval of the plan cast doubt on whether he would approve it.

 

“We feel like we made the best decision,” said Carolyn Jones, the school board president, who added that the decision also was “bittersweet” because of intense neighborhood opposition.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/04/10/school-board-approves-west-end-land-swap-for-fc.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Ingram Industries -- owner of Nashville's new MLS football team -- listed as one of the biggest donors to Nashville's light rail subway ballot issue.  With an unused subway station just inches from Cincinnati's new soccer stadium...do we dare to dream?

 

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/04/11/bulk-money-raised-opposition-nashville-transit-group-kept-secret/506717002/

 

Also, interesting to see that Bridgestone -- yes the tire maker -- listed among the major donors.  Trains don't use tires.  Except in Montreal. 

 

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Trains don't use tires.  Except in Montreal. 

 

If a "train" uses rubber tires instead of steel wheels on rail, is it still a train?

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^I don't know what it'll take to get our big money families to support transit. Even institutions like UC that would benefit greatly from the streetcar expansion seem reluctant to flex any political muscle to get improved transit.

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Trains don't use tires.  Except in Montreal. 

 

If a "train" uses rubber tires instead of steel wheels on rail, is it still a train?

 

Oh lawd, not this again!


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Redevelopment authority plans to act on FC Cincinnati stadium deal

 

The Greater Cincinnati Redevelopment Authority is expected to act on measures to aid FC Cincinnati’s bid to build a Major League Soccer stadium in the West End, the organization’s chairman, Charlie Luken, said on Tuesday.

 

The board of the redevelopment authority, which is Cincinnati’s port authority, is expected to pass a measure which will allow the club to avoid paying sales taxes on construction materials, said CEO Laura Brunner after the authority’s monthly meeting on Tuesday. The authority will own and lease the stadium back to the club, a common procedure now for mega real estate projects in Hamilton County.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/04/11/redevelopment-authority-plans-to-act-on-fc.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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There will be two parking garages.  One will be built by the county and the other by the city.  Locations have not yet been specified. 

 

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/04/11/citys-fc-cincinnati-stadium-deal-includes-paying-750-additional-parking-spaces/508174002/

 

The memo of understanding spells out what the city expects from FC Cincinnati. This includes:

 

    Privately paying for the stadium on the 13-acre site where Taft IT High School's Stargel Stadium now sits. Financing would be made through the Greater Cincinnati Redevelopment Authority, formerly called the port, which would own the stadium.

    Paying 25 percent of what it would pay in property taxes on the stadium to Cincinnati Public Schools, an estimated $25 million over 15 years.

    Entering a 30-year community benefits agreement (CBA) with West End stakeholders.

    Addressing stadium-related "quality of life" issues in the West End such as noise and light pollution, traffic, litter and safety,

    Contributing "no less than $100,000 annually to West End community groups."

    Transfering purchase options on 60 parcels of land in West End to a private developer to be used for affordable housing.

    Committing to Cincinnati's economic inclusion goals regarding the hiring of women- and minority-owned businesses in the stadium.

    Paying prevailing wages on stadium and infrastructure construction.

 

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In a city, things work better when they have multiple uses/support multiple functions. So instead of having a big 750 space, strictly stadium oriented parking garage, it may be better to have multiple garages within walking distances. For example a garage here of perhaps 250 spaces could be 1 block away from the stadium, a short direct walk via Wade Street:

 

https://cincinnatiideas.com/liberty-and-race-underground-garage/

 

It would be a longer walk, but not really a long walk, but perhaps you could even put a garage up by Findlay Market as part of this deal. Build a garage above the streetcar maintenance and operation yard. 

 

Of course the problem with branching out like this is if the team is expecting a certain number of spots to be guaranteed available on game day or expecting game day revenue.

 

And another problem with “Cincinnati-style” single file line development: if the stadium and reconstruction of the CET block (presumably for a garage) gets moved to the front of the line, where does that leave Fourth and Race, Fountain Place, the Banks, etc.? (We could make reforms to make it easier for “market forces” to develop things on their own but that’s just crazy talk)

 

 


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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Parking structures and sports stadiums are horrible neighbors even in the best locations. And, when I say best, I mean out in BF Egypt where a couple of Xway interchanges meet. But in a neighborhood with people they are a menace. Ugly, stationary obstacles to foot and vehicle traffic, off limits to neighborhood residents, bringing thousands of strangers into the neighborhood a few times a year that care exactly nothing for the neighborhood. They toss their trash, drop their cash off (in this case to Mr. Lindner) and split three hours later.

 

One has to suspend all of ones' aesthetic sensibilities to think this is a good thing.

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^I agree, unless they can put it underground a quite a bit to make it less imposing, it's going to be a huge building, hopefully it is as minimal as possible.

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You of all people 1400 should know that OTR needs more parking.  Until they change parking requirements for new development (which I'll believe that when I see it) more parking is needed in that area.  Right now the Washington park garage is pretty much full for residential and worker monthly spots and with the stadium being built there it's only going to lead to further development around that area.  Both of these new garages will provide needed spots for restaurants, residents and workers everyday in the neighborhood as well as for all the other attractions in the area that would get use out of them: Music Hall, Memorial Hall, Shakespeare Company, Washington Park, FC Games, other events at FC stadium, events at Stargel stadium, SCPA events, ect. They'll certainly get used and be a money maker for the city/county/FC. 

 

The location of the two garages are pretty straight forward.  One will go with the stadium.  They were obviously going to build a garage that went with/next to/under the stadium.  It's where their employees and players will park and also where a certain amount of fans will get passes (likely those with the best seats).  The other garage is going to replace the existing CET garage.  So you'll be replacing a current garage with a bigger one that also presumably will have retail on its ground level.  Apartments on top would be great too but I doubt they build something that tall in OTR.  Hell they can even give the sky walk to Music Hall back to the people who complained about losing it.  Other garages will inevitably need to be built in other areas of OTR, especially north of Liberty, but these two are clearly going to go close to the stadium. 

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They toss their trash, drop their cash off (in this case to Mr. Lindner) and split three hours later.

 

Each match, I spend far more at Mecklenburg Gardens, a neighborhood establishment, than I do in the stadium itself. When the hundred or so people leave with us from that bar, we pick up even more on the walk to the venue. All those people have been spending money at other establishments on Short Vine and along the way.

 

I think you'll continue to see people patronizing local businesses with the WE stadium, especially with the streetcar connecting to it.

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Apartments on top would be great too but I doubt they build something that tall in OTR.

 

Since this is across Central Parkway in the West End is there a height limit (thinking of Stanley Rowe Towers)? I'm not sure where the boundaries are exactly, but would either the stadium or these garages have to go through the HCB?

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  Hell they can even give the sky walk to Music Hall back to the people who complained about losing it.   

 

Pretty sure the fact that something like this was in the works is the only reason it got dropped with little kickback from the donors and Music Hall patrons who wanted it to stay. Once the initial fuss and media overplay died down the issue quitely and quickly vanished. Not to get on a tangent though.

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  Hell they can even give the sky walk to Music Hall back to the people who complained about losing it.   

 

Pretty sure the fact that something like this was in the works is the only reason it got dropped with little kickback from the donors and Music Hall patrons who wanted it to stay. Once the initial fuss and media overplay died down the issue quitely and quickly vanished. Not to get on a tangent though.

 

Sorry to keep repeating myself, but yes, I have heard from multiple sources that the city wanted to do this all along: rebuild the Town Center garage and rebuild the skywalk as part of that project. It just so happened that the timing did not work out as well as they would have liked, and the skywalk deteriorated and needed to be demolished before the replacement plans had been finalized. With that being said, now that Music Hall patrons have gotten used to crossing the street (gasp!) and not using the skywalk, I would be happy to see the skywalk permanently retired.

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I dropped my car off at Parkway Automotive this morning and talked with Joe Brewer, the owner who has been there at that 1507 Central Parkway location since 1987. He doesn't own the building (just leases it) so he doesn't have a say in whether or not the owners sell (or under what terms)... but having a good mechanic like Joe in the neighborhood is a real asset. When we talk about "mixed use" on this forum, too often that kind development excludes spaces for services like mechanics. I'm not naive enough to think the FCC development will include space for a mechanic (though that'd be awesome). I'm very excited for the stadium in the West End, but it is important to recognize some of the downsides and things that will be lost. Ideally, FCC and/or the property owner will help Joe find a good, nearby location to continue his mechanic shop.

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