Cincinnati: West End: TQL Stadium

[GCrites]

They want to keep it off the books. Paying by credit card doesn't allow that since the credit card processors send a 1099 to the IRS every year.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

If you hand an uber driver a $5 bill, they get $5.  If you tip through the app, they only get about $3.50. 

[GCrites]

That's a horrible percentage. At least credit card fees max at 3% if the card is present and you negotiate.

[Brutus_buckeye]

Jake was probably speculating on the $3.50 as it is probably more. I have seen some AMEX cards take as much as 6% in some cases. The problem is that rates are all over the board depending on the type of card it is. Miles cards are higher than other rewards cards and AMEX is the highest and you do not know what the terminal fee will be until you run the card because not all Visa, Mastercards, etc are the same.

[ryanlammi]

^Uber probably takes a cut from the tips, too. It's not just credit card processing.

 

Though this is getting off topic. Let's keep it to the FCC Stadium.

[DEPACincy]

There are literally two streetcar stations one block from where the stadium will be.

 

Not really.  The northbound track is on Elm.  The southbound track is on Race, a block (400 feet) further east.  The Race St. stations at Liberty is over 1,000 feet from the stadium and the Race station at Washington Park is more like 1,500+ feet.  I foresee a lot of people hailing a cab on Central Parkway.

 

The stadium will be on Central Parkway. That's one block from Elm and two from Race. It's a 3 minute walk from the proposed southeast corner of the stadium to the 14th and Elm stop. It's 5 minutes from the northeast corner of the proposed stadium to the Elm and Liberty stop. It's a (slow) 8 minute walk to the 12th and Race station. 

 

It takes 10 minutes to walk from Nippert to the corner of MLK and Clifton Ave.

[jwulsin]

It's important to remember when talking about "walkable distances" that so much depends on how the streets are designed. Walking 50' across a busy street is much more of a deterrent than walking 200' along a pleasant sidewalk. Because OTR's streets are well designed for walking, people will be willing to walk much longer distances than if they were in a purely car-centric neighborhood. Even walking to/from Pendleton will be a fun pre/post game walk.

[MikeInCanton]

Depends on the person. In my experience, people used to the suburbs don't really think about walkability that way. They want to park as close as possible. If not, someplace cheap, and they're usually willing to park as far as a 3/4 mile away for free instead of paying $20+ to park near the stadium/arena.

[climberguy714]

Saw this opinion piece:

https://www.thenation.com/article/cincinnatis-soccer-stadium-scam/

 

You can tell the slant from the title. 

I'm at the point now where it's like the street car. People are just opposed to it to be opposed to it. The amt of money that will be fronted by the tax payers is literally a drop in the bucket of the city and county budgets.

Also why don't the developers who buy up buildings and kick people out to flip them for a profit get protested as much as the projects that are seen as catalysts for change and gentrification.  I feel people fight symbols of gentrification more than actual gentrification.

[taestell]

The ability to have a nuanced conversation about the stadium went away almost as soon as the original stadium plan came out. If you dare criticize the deal in any way or suggest improvements, certain hardcore FCC fans will attack you. If you suggest that all parties might be able to come together and come up with a deal that's a win-win for everyone involved, the anti-gentrification squad attacks you. I think a lot of this stems from the very shady way that the Oakley plan was unveiled right after the election and rushed to a vote with a lame duck City Council, at a time when many people already knew that the Oakley plan was just a placeholder and wasn't FCC's #1 choice. If there had been more transparency this process would've gone much more smoothly.

[Matthew67]

Saw this opinion piece:

https://www.thenation.com/article/cincinnatis-soccer-stadium-scam/

 

You can tell the slant from the title. 

I'm at the point now where it's like the street car. People are just opposed to it to be opposed to it. The amt of money that will be fronted by the tax payers is literally a drop in the bucket of the city and county budgets.

Also why don't the developers who buy up buildings and kick people out to flip them for a profit get protested as much as the projects that are seen as catalysts for change and gentrification.  I feel people fight symbols of gentrification more than actual gentrification.

 

That's how identity politics works.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

The ability to have a nuanced conversation about the stadium went away almost as soon as the original stadium plan came out. If you dare criticize the deal in any way or suggest improvements, certain hardcore FCC fans will attack you. If you suggest that all parties might be able to come together and come up with a deal that's a win-win for everyone involved, the anti-gentrification squad attacks you. I think a lot of this stems from the very shady way that the Oakley plan was unveiled right after the election and rushed to a vote with a lame duck City Council, at a time when many people already knew that the Oakley plan was just a placeholder and wasn't FCC's #1 choice. If there had been more transparency this process would've gone much more smoothly.

 

Add to this the fact that various media figures quite clearly had no concept of the area involved.  The Enquirer repeatedly illustrated its stories with a picture of the wrong spot.  More than that, they simply didn't understand the context.  They didn't understand how the wealthy assemble parcels. 

 

This town's media just plain sucks.  I and a few people on this forum were able to completely figure this out six months ago while the "professionals" kept getting tricked. 

 

[Brutus_buckeye]

Saw this opinion piece:

https://www.thenation.com/article/cincinnatis-soccer-stadium-scam/

 

You can tell the slant from the title. 

I'm at the point now where it's like the street car. People are just opposed to it to be opposed to it. The amt of money that will be fronted by the tax payers is literally a drop in the bucket of the city and county budgets.

Also why don't the developers who buy up buildings and kick people out to flip them for a profit get protested as much as the projects that are seen as catalysts for change and gentrification.  I feel people fight symbols of gentrification more than actual gentrification.

 

The thing that I love is he suggests that instead of tackling poverty and trying to improve failing neighborhoods they are building a stadium. WHat a crock and showing a clear misunderstanding of the issue.

 

How do you go about accomplishing the goals he cites. This is one way to get there. He is very disingenuous.

[neilworms]

The ability to have a nuanced conversation about the stadium went away almost as soon as the original stadium plan came out. If you dare criticize the deal in any way or suggest improvements, certain hardcore FCC fans will attack you. If you suggest that all parties might be able to come together and come up with a deal that's a win-win for everyone involved, the anti-gentrification squad attacks you. I think a lot of this stems from the very shady way that the Oakley plan was unveiled right after the election and rushed to a vote with a lame duck City Council, at a time when many people already knew that the Oakley plan was just a placeholder and wasn't FCC's #1 choice. If there had been more transparency this process would've gone much more smoothly.

 

It really frustrates me too because I'm pretty weary of Berding handing the keys of everything to FCC and screwing over the city (Just like he did with the County on the Bengals deal), but I'm not against FCC having a stadium either or the West End getting some attention and investment (though frankly Nippert would have been way better and a smarter move would have been to use the leverage of international press as a means to negotiate with FCC to use Nippert, but IMO that's too outside the box for Cincy's elite who could just brooker a crooked deal anyways given that the mayor is friendly to them :/).

[Cincy513]

MLS would never have approved Nippert.  Detroit is having a hard time convincing MLS they don't need to build a new stadium and they're a way bigger market.  Only way they are letting a team come to small Cincy is if we do everything they ask (have rich ownership, pay entry fee, build own stadium, build academy, ect).

[neilworms]

MLS would never have approved Nippert.  Detroit is having a hard time convincing MLS they don't need to build a new stadium and they're a way bigger market.  Only way they are letting a team come to small Cincy is if we do everything they ask (have rich ownership, pay entry fee, build own stadium, build academy, ect).

 

Did Detroit have the kind of attendence that Cincinnati got?  Saturation matters more than market size IMO, particularly for a sport that traditionally isn't popular in the US.

[ryanlammi]

MLS doesn't need Cincinnati. Our attendance is great, but it's not something that gives us bargaining power to change the rules for how MLS gives out expansion teams. The attendance is the only reason we are in the conversation. Without it we wouldn't have been considered.

[Brutus_buckeye]

The ability to have a nuanced conversation about the stadium went away almost as soon as the original stadium plan came out. If you dare criticize the deal in any way or suggest improvements, certain hardcore FCC fans will attack you. If you suggest that all parties might be able to come together and come up with a deal that's a win-win for everyone involved, the anti-gentrification squad attacks you. I think a lot of this stems from the very shady way that the Oakley plan was unveiled right after the election and rushed to a vote with a lame duck City Council, at a time when many people already knew that the Oakley plan was just a placeholder and wasn't FCC's #1 choice. If there had been more transparency this process would've gone much more smoothly.

 

It really frustrates me too because I'm pretty weary of Berding handing the keys of everything to FCC and screwing over the city (Just like he did with the County on the Bengals deal), but I'm not against FCC having a stadium either or the West End getting some attention and investment (though frankly Nippert would have been way better and a smarter move would have been to use the leverage of international press as a means to negotiate with FCC to use Nippert, but IMO that's too outside the box for Cincy's elite who could just brooker a crooked deal anyways given that the mayor is friendly to them :/).

 

I think people misunderstand the role Berding played in the PBS stadium role 25 years ago. At the time, he was in his mid 20s and starting out in the working world, was a big Bengals fan and starting to get politically connected in the Democratic party. He ran what started as a grass roots group to try and save the Bengals and used some of his political connections to get the players in the city to take notice. He was not affiliated with the Bengals and had no real power in the debate, but he was a public face much like the guy that organizes the Bailey or any other fan club leader is a public face.

 

Only afterward, when his efforts paid off did Berding get a job with the Bengals as a repayment for his efforts. It also helped that he went to high school with Blackburn and Jake Mecklenborg so they had that connection too. But Berding was not really some insider who sold the city a bill of goods on PBS at the time.

[ryanlammi]

I believe he chaired the campaign for the half cent sales tax. But yes, he was in his mid-20s and didn't write the lease or negotiate the lease. He was hired by the Bengals season ticket department after the successful campaign. A lot of people seem to mix up Berding and Bedinghaus, I think.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Only afterward, when his efforts paid off did Berding get a job with the Bengals as a repayment for his efforts. It also helped that he went to high school with Blackburn and Jake Mecklenborg so they had that connection too. But Berding was not really some insider who sold the city a bill of goods on PBS at the time.

 

He's way older than me.  The only famous people from my grade were the Arby's Good Mood Food guy and Lady Gaga's pianist. 

 

I believe he chaired the campaign for the half cent sales tax. But yes, he was in his mid-20s

 

He was 29. 

 

What happened was that the Hamilton County Commissioners raised the county sales tax in early 1996.  An opposition group formed that was led by Tom Luken and Tim Mara.  They gathered over 50,000 signatures in just 30 days to force the thing onto a special public vote.  My dad was one of the petition organizers so I remember this all pretty vividly.  That's where Berding appeared and became the face of the pro-tax campaign.  The tax ended up passing in the special election and the rest is history. 

 

 

 

 

[Brutus_buckeye]

Only afterward, when his efforts paid off did Berding get a job with the Bengals as a repayment for his efforts. It also helped that he went to high school with Blackburn and Jake Mecklenborg so they had that connection too. But Berding was not really some insider who sold the city a bill of goods on PBS at the time.

 

He's way older than me.  The only famous people from my grade were the Arby's Good Mood Food guy and Lady Gaga's pianist. 

 

I believe he chaired the campaign for the half cent sales tax. But yes, he was in his mid-20s

 

He was 29. 

 

What happened was that the Hamilton County Commissioners raised the county sales tax in early 1996.  An opposition group formed that was led by Tom Luken and Tim Mara.  They gathered over 50,000 signatures in just 30 days to force the thing onto a special public vote.  My dad was one of the petition organizers so I remember this all pretty vividly.  That's where Berding appeared and became the face of the pro-tax campaign.  The tax ended up passing in the special election and the rest is history. 

 

 

 

I know but he shares your Alma Mater. Don't sell your class short, you also had a PGA golfer in the class and a published author whose works appear in many Cincinnati area bookstores including my next door neighbor's house who wrote on things related to Cincinnati history and the abandoned subway.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Oh yeah Jim Herman, sorry I forgot about him.  I was in gym class with him, I think. 

 

Yet another new real estate listing touts proximity to this vaporware stadium:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1575272/513-Elizabeth-St-Cincinnati-OH-45203

 

Never pay for parking at a Bengals or Soccer game again!

[IAGuy39]

Only afterward, when his efforts paid off did Berding get a job with the Bengals as a repayment for his efforts. It also helped that he went to high school with Blackburn and Jake Mecklenborg so they had that connection too. But Berding was not really some insider who sold the city a bill of goods on PBS at the time.

 

He's way older than me.  The only famous people from my grade were the Arby's Good Mood Food guy and Lady Gaga's pianist. 

 

I believe he chaired the campaign for the half cent sales tax. But yes, he was in his mid-20s

 

He was 29. 

 

What happened was that the Hamilton County Commissioners raised the county sales tax in early 1996.  An opposition group formed that was led by Tom Luken and Tim Mara.  They gathered over 50,000 signatures in just 30 days to force the thing onto a special public vote.  My dad was one of the petition organizers so I remember this all pretty vividly.  That's where Berding appeared and became the face of the pro-tax campaign.  The tax ended up passing in the special election and the rest is history. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love football, but not that much.  Berding must really LOVE the Bengals!!!

[Brutus_buckeye]

^ don't forget about The Eagle and Bakersfield guy too. Kinda of a local celeb. He was 40 under 40 so that counts for something.

[Cincy513]

The county voted for the tax raise.  Anyone who complains about that is complaining about democracy (similar to how the streetcar vote passed, twice).  It was the Bengals lease that was negotiated horribly.  The Reds lease is much better from a county perspective.  Still most people over the age of 50 in this city immediately start to flip out when they hear the word stadium (and streetcar), even though most don't even know the actual facts behind deal. 

[ryanlammi]

^Most people in this city flip out about stadiums regardless of age. People who weren't old enough to remember what was going on pretend they know what happened without doing any research.

[DEPACincy]

Depends on the person. In my experience, people used to the suburbs don't really think about walkability that way. They want to park as close as possible. If not, someplace cheap, and they're usually willing to park as far as a 3/4 mile away for free instead of paying $20+ to park near the stadium/arena.

 

There's a lot of research out there that shows it's an unconscious thing. If they're not used to walking that far and they look at a map they might balk at the idea. But if they have a friend convince them to walk from Pendleton to Central Parkway just one time they'll enjoy that walk and be willing to do it again. They won't think, "geez I want to walk a half mile" but that's what will happen. Heck, folks do it now for Reds and Bengals games. I live in the northern part of downtown and people park up there and walk down to the stadiums.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

The county voted for the tax raise.  Anyone who complains about that is complaining about democracy (similar to how the streetcar vote passed, twice).  It was the Bengals lease that was negotiated horribly. 

 

The lease was negotiated by the county commissioners.  The face was Bob Bendinghaus, who was voted out in a backlash and replaced by Todd Portune, who has held that seat since.  The Bengals then hired Bendinhaus. 

 

One of the reasons why taxpayers were hosed so badly was because the challenge to the county sales tax delayed property acquisition and construction by 5-6 months.  The lease dictated that the stadium needed to be ready by August, 2000.  So the delay forced the county to pay tens of millions in overtime.  It also allegedly forced the use of concrete that dries faster but is not as durable, meaning future maintenance costs will be higher. 

 

This deviated wildly from the subway project, where there was one vote to build the city-funded capital portion in 1916 and then another vote the following year to approve its lease to the Cincinnati Street Railway.  Both passed, but the lease vote was relatively tight.  That lease was challenged and thrown out by the Ohio Supreme Court in 1918.  No other lease was negotiated or brought before voters.  Because the plan from the very beginning expected the lessee to cover capital expenses, only the tunnel and above-ground right-of-way was built.  The lessee was going to lay the track, finish the station, buy the rolling stock, etc.

 

 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Site plan:

[Brutus_buckeye]

Where did you get this plan ?

 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Where did you get this plan ?

 

 

Bill Reinhart from WVXU. 

[SleepyLeroy]

If they make the front Facade on Central Parkway mimic the old Burger/Lion brewery that was there i would be a happy guy. Even if they dont they fact that it has no set back is a good thing to see.

[jwulsin]

Where did you get this plan ?

 

 

[jwulsin]

Better image of site plan is here: http://wvxu.org/post/soccer-stadium-concept-shows-west-end-footprint#stream/0

[jwulsin]

Here's the proposed site plan on top of a satellite base:

 

[thomasbw]

If you start at the dead center of the pitch and draw a 1/4 mile circle out from it, 40% of the land in the circle is in OTR

[CincyIntheKnow]

Ew.  The parking lot is a giant F-U to the west end neighborhood, and I thought everyone learned their lesson with gaps in a stadium with GABP.  If it doesnt cause a weird wind-tunnel effect the the real estate is too valuable, and eventually gets filled in with seats.

[ucgrady]

So where does the parking garage fit into this plan. Is that service/parking area going to be surface or is that going to be one of the parking garages? The county/city funded parking garage will be off this highlighted site, correct?

[JYP]

If you start at the dead center of the pitch and draw a 1/4 mile circle out from it, 40% of the land in the circle is in OTR

 

Here's a quick measurement.

[JYP]

About 41.6 acres of that circle is OTR. That is 34.16% of the neighborhood within 1/4 a mile of the center of the stadium. I am using the center line of Central Parkway as the neighborhood boundary.

 

If you use Jake/HamCo Auditor interpretation (Providence St) the acreage goes up to 55.17 and the percentage goes to just under 46%.

 

Conversely one could argue that not much of OTR is within a 1/4 mile range of the stadium. OTR is 319 acres. Using the first measurement, only 13% of the neighborhood is within the FC Stadium 1/4 mile perimeter.

[Robuu]

Would be nice if the CBA included moving these historic buildings.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1112957,-84.5221149,3a,75y,129.52h,103.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTPEN-bNKwhWoHEOHCernoA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Cincy513]

There's a reason they wanted to put the stadium there, it's as close to the popular area of OTR as they could get. 

[Cincy513]

Would be nice if the CBA included moving these historic buildings.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1112957,-84.5221149,3a,75y,129.52h,103.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTPEN-bNKwhWoHEOHCernoA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Seriously?  I'm all for trying to save the large building at the corner of W 14th and Central since it doesn't seem like it will be in the way of the stadium.  But asking them to pay to move these two small buildings?  That would be a pretty ridiculous request. 

[Brutus_buckeye]

WHat is the point about arguing where in the West End in connection to OTR it sits.

 

 

OTR is farther along in its evolution so it makes sense to go next to OTR instead of the other side of the West End.

[jwulsin]

About 41.6 acres of that circle is OTR. That is 34.16% of the neighborhood within 1/4 a mile of the center of the stadium. I am using the center line of Central Parkway as the neighborhood boundary.

 

If you use Jake/HamCo Auditor interpretation (Providence St) the acreage goes up to 55.17 and the percentage goes to just under 46%.

 

Conversely one could argue that not much of OTR is within a 1/4 mile range of the stadium. OTR is 319 acres. Using the first measurement, only 13% of the neighborhood is within the FC Stadium 1/4 mile perimeter.

 

As a reminder, neighborhood borders serve no legal, functional role ... which is why the borders are poorly defined and often the source of disagreement. Typically, the borders only come up in the context of community councils, who often don't agree with one another on the borders. Community councils don't have any formal, legal power. Large institutions sometimes cross neighborhood borders (UC, the Zoo, and Children's Hospital come to mind) and some people lose their minds not knowing how to talk about it. I just find the debates kind of tiresome. (sorry, end of rant)

[Robuu]

Would be nice if the CBA included moving these historic buildings.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1112957,-84.5221149,3a,75y,129.52h,103.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTPEN-bNKwhWoHEOHCernoA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Seriously?  I'm all for trying to save the large building at the corner of W 14th and Central since it doesn't seem like it will be in the way of the stadium.  But asking them to pay to move these two small buildings?  That would be a pretty ridiculous request.

 

Well, the CBA is supposed to help mitigate damage done to the community by the development. Part of that damage is demolition of historic structures. Moving them would be a way to mitigate that loss. All I said is it would be nice.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

From today's Enquirer:

 

City legislation calls for the construction of a 750-space lot or garage. Councilman P.G. Sittenfeld said this parking will be new and built "on the stadium site," not upgrades to the nearby Town Center Garage site. Sittenfeld would not confirm Tuesday if the city garage was shown on the schematic.

 

The outlined area on the released schematic stretching from Taft High School to the Jehovah's Witnesses church along John St. could accommodate 750 cars on a surface lot, especially if the cars are jammed in with no space between them.  So I'm suspicious that the city money used for "parking" might actually be used to buy out the Jehovah's Witnesses and who-knows-who-else. 

 

I think a garage lining John St. would be unfortunate.  It would create a gloomy streetscape similar to the one that exists along Central Ave. next to the current WCET garage. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jwulsin]

^Yeah - how/where they integrate parking into the site plan will have the biggest impact on how the stadium interacts with the surrounding neighborhood. I hope the John St side of the site is somehow designed in a way that is attractive and inviting to the neighborhood.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

^Yeah - how/where they integrate parking into the site plan will have the biggest impact on how the stadium interacts with the surrounding neighborhood. I hope the John St side of the site is somehow designed in a way that is attractive and inviting to the neighborhood.

 

I also expect a crackdown on private lot owners.  There is an awful lot of old time religion going on in the vicinity, so maybe they'll be lenient toward them pocketing $20 per car, but I don't think they're going to let people like me who own lots zoned for residential pack their land 17 times per year. 

 

Revelation Baptist Church is looking at a huge windfall from all of this commotion...they'll be able to pack about 90 cars on their lot.  So $1,800 x 17 = $30k per year in cash.  The Jehovah's Witnesses will make out similarly.  "Feast of Love" in Mt. Healthy owns the nondescript block building that stretches between Wade and Bauer...they'll be firing up the bulldozer zoon. 

 

 

 

[greenville2]

^The witnesses won't allow/sell parking in their lot.

 

It is possible they could sell-out and rebuild elsewhere or more likely consolidate to their other buildings in the area, though.