Cincinnati: West End: TQL Stadium

[Guest jmecklenborg]

I meant people who did not file false tax returns with the Ohio Department of Taxation.

 

My mistake.

 

Yeah, I conspired with a relative to save $50/year in property tax.  You caught me red-handed. 

[TheCOV]

All this talk from FC about the great deal they supposedly have with Newport. It's constantly being dropped in media. Yet, I don't recall a single thing about this amazing deal coming to public light. Even if FC isn't saying anything about it, I have met even really heard anything coming from Newport leadership about about it either..

No renders? No leaks about incentives? Nothing?

Or have I simply missed it all?

[taestell]

So you're telling me there's a chance...

[Gordon Bombay]

No renders?

 

 

 

No leaks about incentives?

 

The TIF it's tied to: http://thinkkentucky.com/kyedc/pdfs/TIFProjects.pdf?07062017

 

 

Nothing?

 

Little bit of info here: https://www.fccincinnati.com/stadium

 

 

Or have I simply missed it all?

 

Newport definitely doesn't get the scrutiny that the other sites get, probably because it's not requiring any kind of infrastructure spending or political approval. The TIF at the Ovation site already exists.

[cincydave8]

That's because Newport used eminent domain back in 2002 give or take to bulldoze all the low income housing that used to be there. Myself and anyone else who grew up in Campbell County took their drivers test through the neighborhood.

 

Also Bill Rinehart tweeted that some group called West End United was contacted by FCC yesterday afternoon for a community benefits agreement.

[Brutus_buckeye]

As much as I like the West End, I do think Newport may be the right location for this. THe main reason is that the money the state, city and county can save on infrastructure can be used for other purposes including the possible renovation of USBank Arena which although it is a sports arena, is much more than that and important to attracting high level conventions and concerts to the city in addition to sports and is a lot more multifunctional than an outdoor stadium.

[Rabbit Hash]

As much as I like the West End, I do think Newport may be the right location for this. THe main reason is that the money the state, city and county can save on infrastructure can be used for other purposes including the possible renovation of USBank Arena which although it is a sports arena, is much more than that and important to attracting high level conventions and concerts to the city in addition to sports and is a lot more multifunctional than an outdoor stadium.

 

Anything involving a complete rebuild of an aren should be connected to either the casino and a new hotel or the convention center (with a new hotel). But that’s OT.

 

I would be cool with NEWPORT just for the reasons you mentioned. Push those funds toward convention/hotel/arena.

[Brutus_buckeye]

^ not to get too off topic but you are absolutely right. The riverfront arena is nice but it is better served connected tot he convention center with a hotel on top or Casino 2nd. I will be fine keeping it on the riverfront if that is the most cost effective option, but the arena needs to be done as it is much more than a sports stadium.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

The counter-offer:

 

https://www.wcpo.com/sports/fc-cincinnati/cincinnati-school-board-to-vote-on-counteroffer-to-fc-cincinnati

[Ram23]

FC Cincinnati shuts down West End stadium plans, moving to Oakley or Newport

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/03/16/school-board-reengages-fc-cincinnati-offers-small-concession-stadium-deal/433295002/

 

This was a once in a lifetime development opportunity for a neighborhood that wants and needs new investment, and the jobs and business opportunities that would have come with it. FC Cincinnati regrets that it will be unable to construct a stadium in the West End community and have moved our focus to Oakley and Newport. While we are disappointed we will not be neighbors with our new friends in the West End, we are committed to remaining partners working to improve the quality of life in the neighborhood.

 

After turning down millions of dollars, I'm sure it won't be long before CPS comes to the Average Joe homeowner, again, asking for another few hundred dollars a year to continue under-performing.

[Brutus_buckeye]

sounds like they wanted to make a deal, but there was a certain part of their constituency that could never been appeased no matter how common sense the deal was.

[TheCOV]

Thank god. If cincinnati had a functioning subway as planned, this type of development along central pkwy would be amazing.  As is, I think this stadium would simply be at best, out of context. Worse case, it could threaten all,or portions of the remaining historic homes in Betts Longworth that were rescued in the last twenty years.

[ColDayMan]

FC Cincinnati shelves West End stadium, moves back to Oakley, Newport

 

FC Cincinnati will not put its Major League Soccer stadium in the West End, ending months of grinding back-and-forth between the club, the community and the Cincinnati Public Schools board.

 

In the end, the price it would have to pay in terms of community benefits and tax payments was too much, the club said in a statement issued late Friday after the school board released a resolution agreeing to a land swap if the club paid $20.5 million in payments in lieu of taxes over its first 12 years in MLS and struck a community benefits agreement with West End community groups.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/03/16/fc-cincinnati-shelves-west-end-stadium-moves-back.html

[troeros]

Losing this project for the west end sucks, but I'm not to concerned about the future of OTR/West End. It will still gentrify regardless. Only thing that will change is maybe at a slower rate.

 

Also, I'm curious if the liberty street diet would've been shelved in the process because of fcc...On top of that, another concern of mine was that many of the empty lots would be converted to game day 25$ parking, and would be sat on for another 2 decades, rather than be redeveloped.

 

 

[1400 Sycamore]

Aesthetically, the designs are hideous. Like having a giant piece of machinery in the neighborhood.  About 5 stories tall. Just no smokestack. It would make development limited to public housing within the line of sight which everything is due to the flat terrain. Only persons who have no choice or are not paying for it would locate near it. And, it is worse that the facilities would be vacant and security patrolled 300 days per year or more. It belongs at some nice highway interchange out in Outer Boofoo.

[thebillshark]

^you saw a design for the parking? You must have access to info the rest of us don’t.

 

I’ve been following closely and there’s only been a single rendering of a West End stadium released last year where you can only vaguely make out some of the details of where it sits in the neighborhood. There was never a proposal for parking (for a 21,000 seat stadium) beyond a vague “redevelop WCET town center garage” suggestion. They never discussed what streets they would need from the city to build on top of, what the plans were for historic and other buildings within the footprint, or how the stadium would have addressed Central Parkway. Indeed if they had released some shiny renderings for people to drool over they may have had more public support going into these negotiations.

 

The whole process has been bizarre and just about as clumsy as it could be. On the one hand they came with big promises for community benefits- and then balked once CPS wanted taxes at what is an already abated (as I understand it) rate for big developments. Maybe they thought they were already giving away the farm by reconstructing Stargel stadium right across the street for $10 million. On the other hand, some of the community activists would have never been happy with whatever they came up with, and would have dragged FC’s name and brand through the mud at every step of the process, every chance they had. Perhaps FC saw that and wanted to cut their losses early.

 

[climberguy714]

Question. I don't know how cps taxes work. Wouldn't they have to pay the same taxes in Oakley?

[thebillshark]

Question. I don't know how cps taxes work. Wouldn't they have to pay the same taxes in Oakley?

 

My understanding is they don’t need land from CPS in Oakley and under a port authority structured deal they could perhaps avoid these specific taxes that way. But Todd Portune put out a tweet saying the deal would have to address CPS taxes in order to for him to approve it (I guess a port authority deal would have to be approved by the commissioners.)

[1400 Sycamore]

Question. I don't know how cps taxes work. Wouldn't they have to pay the same taxes in Oakley?

 

My understanding is they don’t need land from CPS in Oakley and under a port authority structured deal they could perhaps avoid these specific taxes that way. But Todd Portune put out a tweet saying the deal would have to address CPS taxes in order to for him to approve it (I guess a port authority deal would have to be approved by the commissioners.)

 

In Oakley, they can reduce the taxable value with TIF. The School Board would oppose it but it wouldn't be up to them.

[troeros]

Last point of fcc West End.

 

Might be in the minority, but I would have rather seen the citirama project occur versus the Stargell stadium replacement anyways for that lot.

 

In regards to Oakley cps newport, I’m torn. FCC promised to create an urban entertainment district around the stadium that would be walkable. I know much of Oakley is screwed, but I do think parts of Oakley can still be salvaged.

 

Newport has better views though, and is closer to the urban core. I’m really torn honestly between the two.

[Jimmy_James]

^The only real problem with the Newport location is highway access.  The ramp for the exit closest to the river needs to be redesigned if a stadium plus additional development happens at the Ovation site.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

This week's actions by Berding, et al, were designed to turn CPS into the "bad guy".  Unfortunately many took the bait.  Wednesday's offer took advantage of the "scarcity" mindset that afflicts many Cincinnatians.  They think of money from a survival perspective -- that it is scarce (when we live in, by far, the wealthiest country in the world) -- and that the money alone is what CPS should aim for in these negotiations.  As I have illustrated already, even the $2 million demand by CPS is a tiny drop in its huge annual budget.  It doesn't make a difference.  What does make a difference is the process and how that process is perceived. 

 

Who made this process ugly?  Carl Lindner III, NOT the school board.  His soccer team chose to play a shell game with locations and push the thing past the November 2017 election to protect the people who he has propped up with his inherited money to make sure he gets the highest return possible on his activities by shorting the public.  He, like his dad, cloaks his activities in altruism, and occasionally donates something like an Ominimax Theater, but those are pennies compared to the billion+ made by repeatedly skirting the rules -- both in real estate and with stocks and with taking companies private then public then private then public (each time pocketing tens if not over $100 million) until an Act of Congress stops you. 

 

Here is a message from CPS board member Ryan Messer that is being shared:

 

 

 

 

 

[LAW 21]

This week's actions by Berding, et al, were designed to turn CPS into the "bad guy".  Unfortunately many took the bait.  Wednesday's offer took advantage of the "scarcity" mindset that afflicts many Cincinnatians.  They think of money from a survival perspective -- that it is scarce (when we live in, by far, the wealthiest country in the world) -- and that the money alone is what CPS should aim for in these negotiations.  As I have illustrated already, even the $2 million demand by CPS is a tiny drop in its huge annual budget.  It doesn't make a difference.  What does make a difference is the process and how that process is perceived. 

 

Who made this process ugly?  Carl Lindner III, NOT the school board.  His soccer team chose to play a shell game with locations and push the thing past the November 2017 election to protect the people who he has propped up with his inherited money to make sure he gets the highest return possible on his activities by shorting the public.  He, like his dad, cloaks his activities in altruism, and occasionally donates something like an Ominimax Theater, but those are pennies compared to the billion+ made by repeatedly skirting the rules -- both in real estate and with stocks and with taking companies private then public then private then public (each time pocketing tens if not over $100 million) until an Act of Congress stops you. 

 

Here is a message from CPS board member Ryan Messer that is being shared:

 

 

I agree with Messer's statement.  This seemingly random deadline makes me wonder if Newport offered the Lindners a deal they couldn't refuse, so the deadline was announced knowing very well that it wouldn't be passed on such short notice.  Otherwise it makes zero sense.   

[Brutus_buckeye]

What CPS seems to have forgotten is that 100% of 0 is still 0. The only question that should have been asked is would the district have been better off if they took the deal or worse off. I don't think anyone can reasonably say they would be worse off. Financially, they would be getting $750k more a year plus other incentives like a new Stargal. There were no other developers looking to do anything with the land and realistically, was there anyone who in the foreseeable future to come along and provide a better offer? Of course not.  Even if 15 years from now a developer would come and pay $2 million plus to the schools, they are better off taking the $750k now from FCC.

 

I know I will be remembering this the next time CPS places a levy on the ballot

[1400 Sycamore]

Its hard to say how much West End development will occur in the next decade. I guess some people are betting against it because it has been dormant so long. I see opportunities there. It wouldn;t take much to generate $750,000 in tax. One mid rise or a single 140,000 square foot office complex would about do it.

[thebillshark]

^The only real problem with the Newport location is highway access.  The ramp for the exit closest to the river needs to be redesigned if a stadium plus additional development happens at the Ovation site.

 

I hope they don’t try to widen and put a highway connector through second or third street. Those look like nice streets with historic homes and good urbanism.

[Rabbit Hash]

^The only real problem with the Newport location is highway access.  The ramp for the exit closest to the river needs to be redesigned if a stadium plus additional development happens at the Ovation site.

 

I hope they don’t try to widen and put a highway connector through second or third street. Those look like nice streets with historic homes and good urbanism.

 

I literally thought you were making some sort of joke about Concinnati and FWW until it dawned on me you’re talking about Newport.

[Jimmy_James]

^The only real problem with the Newport location is highway access.  The ramp for the exit closest to the river needs to be redesigned if a stadium plus additional development happens at the Ovation site.

 

I hope they don’t try to widen and put a highway connector through second or third street. Those look like nice streets with historic homes and good urbanism.

 

Yeah, it would be a tragedy if did that.  It wouldn't be necessary, but you just never know what's going to happen behind the scenes.  There was a plan about 10 years ago to alter the ramp significantly.  It would have continued straight along 471S and then turned east under 471 then branched to a traffic signal on Riviera Drive and the current traffic signal with northbound traffic.  That would have been ideal because it would have dumped traffic bound for Newport and Bellevue near the fast food, gas stations, and shopping centers.  The current ramp would be closed and just become Park Avenue again, so it would have been a huge win for the neighborhood.  Unfortunately, that never happened, probably due to funding, but that plan could just be dusted off if traffic ever increased dramatically.  In that scenario, some traffic would route around NOTL on 3rd or 4th as it does now, and some would take 6th street.

[Rabbit Hash]

Meh. There are plenty of good surface streets to get folks in and out. You can use 471 and KY 8 from the east. You could hit 75 and use Fifth Street through COV. You could use Taylor-Southgate from several downtown Cincy freeway access points.

 

Anyhow, this all sounds like the old arguments for Riverfront Stadium. The model for folks having a freeway ramp directly to their parking spot is an old attitude. It’s all about game day experience not in and out as fast as possible.

[Ucgrad2015]

Another spot I was hoping they’d consider but didn’t is the irs site. Would hope that would help transition that fast food island between there and the interstate.

[Brutus_buckeye]

Its hard to say how much West End development will occur in the next decade. I guess some people are betting against it because it has been dormant so long. I see opportunities there. It wouldn;t take much to generate $750,000 in tax. One mid rise or a single 140,000 square foot office complex would about do it.

 

if it takes 10 years to get a development like this done, the county is out a ton of tax money. If it takes 10 years to get $2 million in taxes on a project chances are it is still worse off because of the present value of today's money.

[Jimmy_James]

Meh. There are plenty of good surface streets to get folks in and out. You can use 471 and KY 8 from the east. You could hit 75 and use Fifth Street through COV. You could use Taylor-Southgate from several downtown Cincy freeway access points.

 

Anyhow, this all sounds like the old arguments for Riverfront Stadium. The model for folks having a freeway ramp directly to their parking spot is an old attitude. It’s all about game day experience not in and out as fast as possible.

 

I'm not talking about convenience for people going to the game.  Getting TO the stadium isn't the problem.  Keeping exiting traffic from backing up onto the Big Mac Bridge is the real issue.  That ramp already backs up every afternoon and weekend evening to the curve in the ramp.  When traffic on that exit does stack up onto the bridge itself, that often causes an accident and it typically creates issues on FWW as well, which isn't as far away as it feels.  Any time you have traffic unexpectedly stop, that creates a safety issue.

[Ram23]

Couldn't FCC just pay to have police operate the traffic signals and keep traffic flowing, as they do around UC during games? For the cost of infrastructure upgrades to that interchange, they could probably afford to do that for a century or so.

[1400 Sycamore]

Its hard to say how much West End development will occur in the next decade. I guess some people are betting against it because it has been dormant so long. I see opportunities there. It wouldn;t take much to generate $750,000 in tax. One mid rise or a single 140,000 square foot office complex would about do it.

 

if it takes 10 years to get a development like this done, the county is out a ton of tax money. If it takes 10 years to get $2 million in taxes on a project chances are it is still worse off because of the present value of today's money.

 

A mid rise in the CBD might take 5-7 years from start to finish, but a 150,000 square foot office complex in an exburb is a 2-3 year project. You are mistaken about the CPS' wisdom in rejecting a really crappy offer. I tend to agree with others who have said that the whole negotiation was designed to take FCC off the hook once they saw how much the local anti-gentrification folks were going to extract. It has the smell of a deal killing offer, not a deal making offer.

[Brutus_buckeye]

you have a $200 million investment in the city. The school board was stupid. We elect our leaders to use wisdom to do the right thing, not just kowtow to a mindless mob. School board officials have proven to be a bunch of feckless individuals. It is no wonder why they are on the school board instead of running the businesses that actually make a difference to the city.

[Rabbit Hash]

And as anybody called out Cranberry for being completely absent when the city could have used some leadership on this? Or are my expectations off?

[Brutus_buckeye]

he had no control. This was solely a school board issue. They owned the land. Nothing city council could do about it until the school board agreed to sell

[Jimmy_James]

Couldn't FCC just pay to have police operate the traffic signals and keep traffic flowing, as they do around UC during games? For the cost of infrastructure upgrades to that interchange, they could probably afford to do that for a century or so.

 

Probably, but it's not FCC's problem to solve.  The state of Kentucky needs to implement a better/safer solution if more riverfront development occurs.  I don't want to get too far off topic, but the current ramp was a "temporary ramp" when 471 was built and it's still in service 30-40 years later.  It contains 3 traffic entry points from outside of 471 and it has a cross walk in the middle.  It's just barely functional in its current state.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Cincinnati's shadow government (specifically, Carl Lindner, Jr. and now Carl III) has worked for decades to undermine access to the Kentucky river cities.  The Fort Washington Way rebuild damaged the value of the Covington Rivercenter towers and set the stage for the Queen City Square stealing their tenants. The new FWW makes no provision for incorporating the suspension bridge (The Lytle Tunnel's center tube used to lead directly to it) or a new bridge (one was fully funded in 1994, then the funding  mysteriously shifted to Maysville) bridge.  The BSB plans make no plans to incorporate the Clay Wade Bailey Bridge.  Lindner, etc., have delayed the BSB for a decade while attempting to get the 5th St. ramps removed. 

 

100% goal of Cincinnati real estate interests has been to make sure all roads lead to DT Cincinnati and it's as awkward as possible to cross the river.  No direct bridges, no subway tunnel or tunnels.  The Ovation site is difficult to access.  Bill Butler got 12th widened in Covington and had KY 8 extended to his development at no cost to himself.  But that is not enough to make that site attractive, or else it would have already happened. 

 

That's why it makes no sense from Lindner's standpoint to take the team across the river.  50+ years of his and his father's efforts have centered around making DT Cincinnati -- especially Third St. -- the most valuable real estate in the region.  They've owned the key parcels for decades.  They keep making it more and more valuable by making its competitors less valuable. 

 

The only rationale for building the stadium in Newport would be to consume so much of that site that there is little left to compete with DT Cincinnati.  But construction of the stadium there adds fuel to the reworking of Newport's ramps, completion of the 12th St. widening across Covington, etc. 

 

Meanwhile, construction of a soccer stadium on Central Parkway between 12th~ and Liberty takes all of that potentially competitive land out of the equation.  Look back to the 1920's plans for Central Parkway to become a "cultural avenue".  This is all part of a continuation of that plan.  SCPA moving to Central Parkway eliminated that land as competition with Downtown. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cincy513]

Jesus Christ with all your conspiracies Jake....

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Jesus Christ with all your conspiracies Jake....

 

Read this book:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1npn7n

 

Some of the best commentary on Cincinnati exists in this book. 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnClevesSymmes]

Jesus Christ with all your conspiracies Jake....

 

Read this book:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1npn7n

 

Some of the best commentary on Cincinnati exists in this book. 

 

 

Link isn't loading. What is the name of the book?

[thomasbw]

 

Downtown: Its Rise and Fall, 1880–1950

Robert M. Fogelson

Copyright Date: 2001

Published by: Yale University Press

Pages: 492

[joshknut]

Ryan Messer's opinion piece:

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/2018/03/20/fc-cincinnati-stadium-deadline-more-ultimatum-than-negotiation/441146002/

[Larry]

“Cincinnati's shadow government (specifically, Carl Lindner, Jr. and now Carl III) has worked for decades to undermine access to the Kentucky river cities.“

 

    I say good for the Lindners!  Nothing wrong with keeping the jobs and money in Cincinnati and Ohio as far as I’m concerned.  After all, Cincinnati has lost half its population since the 1950’s and still losing!  Can’t understand why you guys would prefer to create jobs in another state while your own city “shrinks”! 

[Robuu]

^ It's not zero-sum, though. With better connectivity between Downtown, Covington, and Newport, all three cities could do more to synergize and utilize each others' strengths.

[Cincy513]

What strengths exactly does NKY have?  The only thing they have going for them is the fact they're across the river from downtown. 

[taestell]

Seriously? The urban parts of Covington and Newport feel like Cincinnati neighborhoods. Covington and Cincinnati literally share a street grid. All of the strengths that OTR had before the 3CDC era renovations began also exist in Covington and Newport, they just haven't had the same level of investment yet.

[ucgrady]

Newport and Covington offer some of the best intact historic neighborhoods in the Midwest. In combination with OTR, the Cincinnati/NKY basin should leverage it's walkable historic neighborhoods to create it's identity the way that people around the country think about New Orleans, Charleston or Boston.

 

Covington has been getting a lot of good press lately, is already one of the best urban neighborhoods in the region and is improving rapidly. It's success should be desired by everyone on this board that wants Cincinnati to do well. Would you rather have Brooklyn or East Saint Louis across the river from you?

 

EDIT: To keep this on topic, this is exactly why FC locating in Newport would be a positive in my opinion. The Greater Cincinnati region doesn't feel connected enough. Many in Ohio see NKY as a vestigial appendage. Even though some Ohioans would give up on FC in Newport, I think it would be a huge positive to help bring together the basin. Rising tide lifts all boats, united we stand divided we fall etc. etc. 

[jim uber]

^ It's not zero-sum, though. With better connectivity between Downtown, Covington, and Newport, all three cities could do more to synergize and utilize each others' strengths.

Indeed. I'd go further and state that the economic vitality of the Cincy region has been hamstrung for... ever by the Ohio river divide. In any urban region there is a center of mass that defines the focus of economic activity. The influence of our center of mass is decidedly directional, and toward the south is very limited. That hurts us as a region.

 

Imagine if the airport had been developed to the northeast as opposed to CVG. NKY would be seriously worse off without that balancing economic engine, and so would downtown. If we had logical sharing of institutions and revenues across the river for transit, police, fire, emergency services, fixing potholes, or even any one of those, we'd be ahead of where we are today by a lot, I think.