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39 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

In Kentucky, Medicaid access will be expanded, meaning hundreds of thousands of people will get healthcare coverage.  A full FIVE PERCENT of the state's adult population will have their voting rights restored.

THIS is huge! One of the best things Kasich ever did was the Medicaid expansion. I kind of hate that Kentucky gets it right while we elect...well...nevermind.  😞

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38 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So do you think the result in Kentucky bodes well for the Dems winning it in the 2020 election?

 

I previously posted that Kentucky won't be in play for the Democratic candidate in 2020.  If you want me to repeat myself, then no, I don't think this result tells us anything about the Presidential race specifically in KY, other than it probably won't be a 30% margin.  You can extrapolate the Trump stink that Bevin couldn't shake off to other states, notably the tossups.  If Democrats can flip the suburbs around the country like they've done in VA and KY, it's going to be a bad time for Republicans in 2020.


Very Stable Genius

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4 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Btw, a lot of flips in central Ohio at the local level last night, notably in the suburbs.

Most Columbus suburbs flipped blue in 2016 for president, so it would be s continuation of that trend.  

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2 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

I think he disagrees about that being the central point here.  His point, with which I agree, is not that Kentucky is in play, it is that it is irrelevant.

 

The Democratic Party is happy to have Beshear in the Kentucky governor's mansion but they are not going to be playing for Kentucky in 2020.  They are going to be playing hard for Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin.

 

And Ohio.    The people needed in all those states, plus Ohio, have a lot in common with the people in Kentucky and West Virginia.

 

To paraphrase the Clinton that won, “It’s the economy.  Don’t be stupid.”.   Focus on that, lay off the out there “progressive” cultural stuff.   Scale back the “outrage mobs”, because they play right into the hands of Trump and his minions.  Don’t even mention guns.  

 

Keep an eye on the polls in Kentucky and even West Virginia.  Some of them will talk to the pollsters.  The people up here who think like them won’t,  and they are the key.

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2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So do you think the result in Kentucky bodes well for the Dems winning it in the 2020 election?

 

There is literally no one arguing that. The point they're making is that this is a data point. 

 

1. VA is a data point

2. KY is a data point

3. MS is a data point

4. OH burbs are data points

5. Philly burbs are data points

 

And so forth. And all the data points are bad for Trump right now. The KY election didn't happen in isolation. Considering the other trends, it is reasonable to believe that Trump put Beshear over the top here.

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3 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

There is literally no one arguing that. The point they're making is that this is a data point. 

 

1. VA is a data point

2. KY is a data point

3. MS is a data point

4. OH burbs are data points

5. Philly burbs are data points

 

And so forth. And all the data points are bad for Trump right now. The KY election didn't happen in isolation. Considering the other trends, it is reasonable to believe that Trump put Beshear over the top here.

And you better believe that once McConnell realizes that Trump is actually a negative for the GOP and can cost him the majority in the Senate, then Donnie is a dead man walking.  McConnell holds all the power over Donnie now. 

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Here's the big story for Dems:

 

Campbell County. 

 

2004 Prez: 63.6% GOP

2008 Prez: 59.7% GOP

2012 Prez: 60.3% GOP

2015 Gov: 56.4% GOP

2016 Prez: 58.9% GOP

2019 Gov: 51.8% DEM

 

Chart those percentages. They tell a story of Cincy burbs moving blue. And the story is more pronounced on the Ohio side. Then look at what is happening in the Cbus burbs. If some of the Appalachian folks stay home or betray Trump in 2020 then Ohio isn't just up for grabs--it's going to be Likely D.

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3 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

I previously posted that Kentucky won't be in play for the Democratic candidate in 2020.  If you want me to repeat myself, then no, I don't think this result tells us anything about the Presidential race specifically in KY, other than it probably won't be a 30% margin.  You can extrapolate the Trump stink that Bevin couldn't shake off to other states, notably the tossups.  If Democrats can flip the suburbs around the country like they've done in VA and KY, it's going to be a bad time for Republicans in 2020.

To your point, the Trump effect is going to hurt the GOP more down ballot then it may on the presidential ticket in 2020 imo. PA and MI are the big wild cards but the real problem is going to be the suburbs that vote against the GOP candidate in states that Trump wins anyway. Trump could very likely win 2020, but it would look like Obama in 2010 where so many GOP seats flip because suburban voters disdain Trump.  Plus, the other thing is like in 2010, 2020 election is a census election so it could flip some parties in power and their ability to gerrymander.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Democratic Party favorite Eric Swalwell making headlines:

 

Rep. Eric Swalwell appears to fart on live TV

https://nypost.com/2019/11/19/congressman-eric-swalwell-appears-to-fart-on-live-tv/

 

Here’s one act he had no problem passing.

 

A congressman from California became the butt of everyone’s joke for appearing to fart on live television Monday night.

 

Rep. Eric Swalwell was mid-sentence on MSNBC’s “Hardball with Chris Matthews” when it sounded like he let ‘er rip.

 

“Chris, so far the evidence is uncontradicted that the president used taxpayer dollars to help him cheat —” Swalwell says with a pause, as the noise is clearly heard, “— an election.”

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38 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

Democratic Party favorite Eric Swalwell making headlines:

 

Rep. Eric Swalwell appears to fart on live TV

https://nypost.com/2019/11/19/congressman-eric-swalwell-appears-to-fart-on-live-tv/

 

Here’s one act he had no problem passing.

 

A congressman from California became the butt of everyone’s joke for appearing to fart on live television Monday night.

 

Rep. Eric Swalwell was mid-sentence on MSNBC’s “Hardball with Chris Matthews” when it sounded like he let ‘er rip.

 

“Chris, so far the evidence is uncontradicted that the president used taxpayer dollars to help him cheat —” Swalwell says with a pause, as the noise is clearly heard, “— an election.”

 

Ram with the hard news.

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1 hour ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Ram with the hard news.

 

1 hour ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Ram with the hard news.


But a credit to Ram, he just summed up the NY Post’s journalistic depth and integrity. The best use of that paper is to wipe your a** if you ran out of toilet paper. 

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1 hour ago, stpats44113 said:

 


But a credit to Ram, he just summed up the NY Post’s journalistic depth and integrity. The best use of that paper is to wipe your a** if you ran out of toilet paper. 

 

It's not just an indictment on the NY Post.  We're possibly dealing with the future of democracy in America, as well as the rule of law, and Ram is posting stories about farts.  It sure would be nice if he would participate in actual discussion of ongoing and very serious events.

Edited by jonoh81

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23 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

It's not just an indictment on the NY Post.  We're possibly dealing with the future of democracy in America, as well as the rule of law, and Ram is posting stories about farts.  It sure would be nice if he would participate in actual discussion of ongoing and very serious events.


@jon81oh, if you think you’re going to get serious or debatable dialogue from from the two biggest apologists, then you’re sorely mistaken. @Ram23 posted an article from the laughable NY Post about farts and @EVD said it was a sham inquiry if Hunter Biden didn’t testify. You think you’re going to get serious dialogue out of these two??  Ha! My ten year old offers bette dialogue  and arguments. I treat both of them as parody accounts because there’s no way neither of them can be serious. I actually laughed out loud at the NY Post BY @Ram23. It was pretty entertaining and sad at the same time. Congrats NY Post. I see a Pulitzer in that article. Stay classy.

Edited by stpats44113

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when I complain about the Democrats acting like Republicans, this is what I'm talking about

 

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/12/12/atrocious-188-democrats-join-gop-hand-trump-738-billion-military-budget-includes

 

In a floor speech ahead of Wednesday's vote, Rep. Ro Khanna (D-Calif.), the most vocal opponent of the NDAA in the House, said "there are many things you can call the bill, but it's Orwellian to call it progressive." Khanna was standing across the aisle from Rep. Adam Smith (D-Wash.), who hailed the measure as "the most progressive defense bill we have passed in decades."

"Let's speak in facts," said Khanna. "This defense budget is $120 billion more than what Obama left us with. That could fund free public college for every American. It could fund access to high-speed, affordable internet for every American. But it's worse. The bipartisan amendment to stop the war in Yemen: stripped by the White House. The bipartisan amendment to stop the war in Iran: stripped by the White House."

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2 hours ago, eastvillagedon said:

 

expected defection from Dem to Republican. A trend?

 

 

 

It would make sense if we saw more, considering the runaway spending of the current admin

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If one is a trend, then what would you call the number of people leaving the Republican party?

 

Meanwhile....

 

 


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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4 hours ago, eastvillagedon said:

 

expected defection from Dem to Republican. A trend?

 

 

 

One isn't a trend lmfao

 

Please do Justin Amash next. Otherwise, you're further proving yourself as a bad faith troll.


Very Stable Genius

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And for the rest of the story....

 


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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6 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

It would make sense if we saw more, considering the runaway spending of the current admin

 

More than 50% of our discretionary spending is for defense, we spend far far more than any other nation, and Congress just overwhelmingly increased defense spending by another $210B, on our way to trillion dollar deficits.  Neither party truly cares about deficits at all, as demonstrated by their actions in continuing to increase deficits.

 

But the Republican Party lives to kneecap spending of Democratic presidents.  Which is the primary basis for every decrease in the deficit in the past fifty years.  So if you truly care about deficits above all else, you should be for a Democratic president and a Republican Congress.

 

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12 hours ago, Foraker said:

So if you truly care about deficits above all else, you should be for a Democratic president and a Republican Congress. against anyone selling you the lie that Trickle Down Economics will help with our budget deficit.

 

FTFY.


Very Stable Genius

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17 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

One isn't a trend lmfao

 

Please do Justin Amash next. Otherwise, you're further proving yourself as a bad faith troll.

It was a red district that he won in 18 likely benefiting from the NJ residents hatred of the Tax Law which essentially passed a ton of increases to them because of the SALT cap. Not a trend. He could read the tea leaves though and probably saw a more viable path forward as a moderate Republican than a moderate Dem.

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9 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

It was a red district that he won in 18 likely benefiting from the NJ residents hatred of the Tax Law which essentially passed a ton of increases to them because of the SALT cap. Not a trend. He could read the tea leaves though and probably saw a more viable path forward as a moderate Republican than a moderate Dem.

His internal polling showed that his opposition to impeachment was going to cost the democratic nomination. He will likely face tough GOP opponents too and lose in the primary. I will boldy predict that his political career is over. 

Edited by freefourur

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1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:
Quote

So if you truly care about deficits above all else, you should be against anyone selling you the lie that Trickle Down Economics will help with our budget deficit.

 

 

Agreed. Tried and failed, yet again with the recent round of tax cuts. 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/its-official-the-trump-tax-cuts-were-a-bust-2019-01-30

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18 minutes ago, freefourur said:

His internal polling showed that his opposition to impeachment was going to cost the democratic nomination. He will likely face tough GOP opponents too and lose in the primary. I will boldy predict that his political career is over. 

That is typically what happens when politicians do this. It is a calculated risk, Odds are he stands a better shot in the GOP but it is still less than 50% of surviving the primary. It is the classic how do you want it, one in the head or two in the chest scenario.

 

Politically, I think he is probably making the right choice here (from a strategic point only). He would have no hope with a dem primary. His district trends red, but it is probably a much more moderate red than say a GOP district in the South. If the primary GOP candidate was a bright Red one, he may have a shot. Also, you would think that a move like this would have been planned and not reactionary, so there could be coordination with the local GOP office not to field a strong primary candidate (I.e. - if some local schmuck wants to run, we cant control that but we will not actively recruit and fund someone to run in the primary against you). So in that case, it could be more beneficial strategically.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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On 12/17/2019 at 8:17 PM, Cavalier Attitude said:

Clean out the "blue dogs", I say.

 

Yeah, clean out the "blue dogs".  That's called a GOP controlled House.

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On 12/20/2019 at 1:48 AM, X said:

 

Yeah, clean out the "blue dogs".  That's called a GOP controlled House.

They voted for the Iraq War and killed the public option. I could go on and on about their transgressions...

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The parties are significantly different in at least one way - Republicans understand how to grab and hold power and never apologize or give an inch or care what the other side is saying. Democrats will trip over themselves walking across the aisle, dismantle their own organization efforts or let Republicans do it with no resistance (ACORN), and prop up DINOS who don't vote with them or even switch parties to the Republicans.

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5 minutes ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

The parties are significantly different in at least one way - Republicans understand how to grab and hold power and never apologize or give an inch or care what the other side is saying. Democrats will trip over themselves walking across the aisle, dismantle their own organization efforts or let Republicans do it with no resistance (ACORN), and prop up DINOS who don't vote with them or even switch parties to the Republicans.

 

There's nothing I despise more than the "both sides" argument, especially now.  There are massive differences between the two, and as cynical as I am, there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty and irrational cynicism in saying that they're the same.  In the other thread, you clearly have your favorites in the Democratic candidates, but if you believed that they're no different than Republicans, why bother supporting any of them?  Maybe what helps Republicans maintain power is that too may liberal/progressive voters push this nonsense that who is in power makes no significant difference.  

Edited by jonoh81

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Not everyone in the Democratic Party is bad. There are honest hard working progressives within the ranks. My beef is specifically with the leadership (the DNC and the DCCC), the Obama wing, the Clinton wing, Pelosi, Schumer, the moderate wing that is obsessed with the deficit, and the war hawks. Okay, yes, that is a lot. But we have to reform the party. It has a rotten core. That's why this primary is so important. It's a referendum on the future direction of the party, and probably the only shot that the left will have to do so for a long time.

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10 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

There's nothing I despise more than the "both sides" argument, especially now.  There are massive differences between the two, and as cynical as I am, there is a lot of intellectual dishonesty and irrational cynicism in saying that they're the same.  In the other thread, you clearly have your favorites in the Democratic candidates, but if you believed that they're no different than Republicans, why bother supporting any of them?  Maybe what helps Republicans maintain power is that too may liberal/progressive voters push this nonsense that who is in power makes no significant difference.  

You're welcome to debate the contents of the diagram, but I don't think you will get very far.

 

There is a difference of course. The Republicans are a far right white nationalist party, and the moderate Democrats are obsessed with maintaining the status quo. I'd call that conservatism, not progressivism!

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I believe most people realize that the Democrats have been ineffective in both their tactics and messaging since 2000, even if they can't exactly articulate it. Aside from some progress on civil rights, things have stayed the same or gotten worse for most Americans in that period. That causes them to stay home because they don't see any change forthcoming!

 

Obama campaigned as a progressive and did well, though in practice he slid out of that immediately after Obamacare was passed. Kerry and Clinton ran as moderates and lost. We can't repeat that mistake.

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I'll bite on Obama '12... people weren't as energized for one. Also, Dems knew better than the Republican Party that the Religious Right wasn't going to show up for a Mormon. People knew Obama had it in the bag.

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45 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

I'll bite on Obama '12... people weren't as energized for one. Also, Dems knew better than the Republican Party that the Religious Right wasn't going to show up for a Mormon. People knew Obama had it in the bag.

I agree that those were factors. It's important to ask why they weren't as energized. I can point to a few reasons:

 

Disillusionment after the bailouts of the banks, insurance companies, and car companies. Also the slow economic recovery, although the blame for both of these can be spread around a bit.

 

Stimulus package was opaque and did not directly affect voters enough. (Note, in many cases the stimulus money kept projects afloat that would have been cut by local/state budget cuts. It wasn't all additional spending.)

 

Watered down healthcare bill. Many people worried that they would be forced to buy unaffordable insurance. (Note - you're no longer forced to buy it, but it's still unaffordable for many.)

 

This one is probably my main criticism of Obama: he had an excellent organization infrastructure in place from his '08 campaign and then he promptly dismantled it after being elected. This in turn contributed to...

 

Dems getting blown out in the 2010 midterms. They severely underestimated the importance of this election. They were outcampaigned by the R's who were energized by the nascent Tea Party. This gave R's control over redistricting which ended up being extremely important, not just for controlling legislatures but also for suppressing overall turnout.

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2 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

You're welcome to debate the contents of the diagram, but I don't think you will get very far.

 

There is a difference of course. The Republicans are a far right white nationalist party, and the moderate Democrats are obsessed with maintaining the status quo. I'd call that conservatism, not progressivism!

 

The contents of the diagram are so simplistic that there's not much to debate.  It's no more than a glorified Facebook meme, so yeah, you're right about not getting too far with it.  

 

Your second line is just as overly simplistic.  There are some who may fit that mold, but many who  do not.  And I certainly would trust the Dems a hell of a lot more to move things forward.  It seems to me that you're a classic example of an ideological purist, where anything less is being a Republican.  It's just not a realistic view, IMO.

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2 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

I believe most people realize that the Democrats have been ineffective in both their tactics and messaging since 2000, even if they can't exactly articulate it. Aside from some progress on civil rights, things have stayed the same or gotten worse for most Americans in that period. That causes them to stay home because they don't see any change forthcoming!

 

Obama campaigned as a progressive and did well, though in practice he slid out of that immediately after Obamacare was passed. Kerry and Clinton ran as moderates and lost. We can't repeat that mistake.

 

Again, this is a simplistic view.  I might agree with a base point about the Dems being ineffective at times with messaging, but at the same time, you're arguing from the point that the Dems have had control of government since 2000 to fully push whatever they wanted, and we both know that is just not true.  Progressive ideas won't just happen because you want them to.  There's an entire movement trying to prevent them from happening, if not reverse all the progress already made.  That was true with Obama, and true for Democrats in office nationally.  

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7 minutes ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

Strange how wanting universal healthcare, end to endless war, decreased inequality, and increased workplace democracy makes one an ideological purist/left extremist.

 

I didn't call you an extremist, but you seem to take an all or nothing approach that I don't find particularly realistic even in the best of times, which these certainly aren't.

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14 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

Kerry and Clinton ran as moderates and lost. We can't repeat that mistake.

 

You keep saying this, but it doesn't make it true. Clinton lost because voters perceived her as more extreme than Trump. If you look at the polling, voters didn't know what to think about Trump and many mistakenly viewed him as a moderate. There's a strong argument that Clinton (and Kerry) only had one path to victory, and that was to convince more voters that they would govern moderately. 

 

And I say that as someone who is pretty far left. Like I think we'd be a lot better off if everyone in the country was to the left of any of the current Presidential candidates. But I'm also realistic about what my fellow Americans believe. I feel like you are in a bubble and can't see that.

 

And that diagram is so bad it isn't even worth arguing over.

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14 hours ago, Cavalier Attitude said:

Strange how wanting universal healthcare, end to endless war, decreased inequality, and increased workplace democracy makes one an ideological purist/left extremist.

 

Who said it does.  My guess is that most of us who consider ourselves Democrats want all three of those things.  We just don't think we can just stomp our feet, have a tantrum, and electoral realities will go away.

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1 hour ago, X said:

 

Who said it does.  My guess is that most of us who consider ourselves Democrats want all three of those things.  We just don't think we can just stomp our feet, have a tantrum, and electoral realities will go away.

 

Yep.  With Republicans in recent years basically admitting they're all about everything from election fraud to voter suppression, and will use every dirty tactic in the books to maintain power, it would be difficult for even the strongest, most charismatic progressive president to get that much done if Republicans have some or all of Congress.  And that doesn't say anything about the issue of gerrymandering and how the conservative SCOTUS just punted on demanding fairer elections.

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