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Ram23

Political Correctness

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3 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Free speech is what makes us a strong country. If we cant handle vile, misguided, wrongheaded, or speech we disagree with, then we really have no place as an influential leader in the world. We pride ourselves from being free to disseminate this information however we need to. We know that in the long run the cream rises to the top. The biggest challenges is controlling our fears to self regulate ourselves.

 

Free speech, however does not equal consequence-free speech. 

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8 minutes ago, freefourur said:

 

This is not a thing that is really happening to any large degree. Nearly every instance of PC/ cancel culture/ micro-aggression is a blown out of proportion incident that is hyped up by media outlets because it gets clicks.  

 

The Gibson Bakery incident was an actual incident that went too far and the college had to pay for it via a libel lawsuit. 

 

 I am not claiming that people don;t get out of hand. It's just not as widespread as we are to believe and it isn't even in the top ten of actual real things to worry about. 

True because what I consider the extreme far left is not that big of a force...yet. It is the "yet" part that I am concerned about. It is the general direction of movement, even if it is slow, that concerns me. I don't want the far left to just be an equally corrupt counterpoint to the far right. I don't want the left in general to dissolve into fractious attacks and balkanize while the true enemy is the far right. 

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Just now, Toddguy said:

True because what I consider the extreme far left is not that big of a force...yet. It is the "yet" part that I am concerned about. It is the general direction of movement, even if it is slow, that concerns me. I don't want the far left to just be an equally corrupt counterpoint to the far right. I don't want the left in general to dissolve into fractious attacks and balkanize while the true enemy is the far right. 

meh...I wouldn't worry too much about the far-left.  Extreme views are always kind of kooky.  Let's just hope we never get a President that fires up the far left like Trump does to the far right.  In that case, I would not support that president no matter how much of my favored could get done. 

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2 minutes ago, freefourur said:

 

Free speech, however does not equal consequence-free speech. 

It is AMAZING to me to see how many people do not get this-that free speech is protected from sanctions from the government(with some exceptions.)  So many people sputtering crap on twitter, instagram, etc. thinking they have the right to "FREE SPEECH"-as if their employer can't fire them especially while they do this ON THE JOB!  

 

Basic understanding of civics and government in this country is as bad as the lack of knowledge of basic geography and is pitiful.

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1 minute ago, Toddguy said:

It is AMAZING to me to see how many people do not get this-that free speech is protected from sanctions from the government(with some exceptions.)  So many people sputtering crap on twitter, instagram, etc. thinking they have the right to "FREE SPEECH"-as if their employer can't fire them especially while they do this ON THE JOB!  

 

Basic understanding of civics and government in this country is as bad as the lack of knowledge of basic geography and is pitiful.

That is correct. The government cannot sanction you for your speech with some exceptions. The rest of society can "cancel" you, protest you, boycott you because the 1st Amendment protects their right to do those things. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, freefourur said:

That is correct. The government cannot sanction you for your speech with some exceptions. The rest of society can "cancel" you, protest you, boycott you because the 1st Amendment protects their right to do those things. 

 

 

My concern there is instead of boycott, protest, etc. many people seem to increasingly want to "ban" that which with they disagree. And this is occurring on both extremes of the political spectrum IMO. Those with whom you disagree with in any substantial way at all must be demonized-it is the new way of doing things it seems-the new normal.

 

*Of course if the one being demonized IS in fact a demon like a certain current ruler of a certain country... then...well...lol.

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20 minutes ago, freefourur said:

 

Free speech, however does not equal consequence-free speech. 

 

Actually, in the legal realm, yes, it quite often means exactly that.

 

In the social and economic realms, of course speech can have consequences, but the PC zealots ruining this country are intent on ramping up those consequences more and more and more until we get to the death penalty for microaggressions.

 

14 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

It is AMAZING to me to see how many people do not get this-that free speech is protected from sanctions from the government(with some exceptions.)  So many people sputtering crap on twitter, instagram, etc. thinking they have the right to "FREE SPEECH"-as if their employer can't fire them especially while they do this ON THE JOB!  

 

Basic understanding of civics and government in this country is as bad as the lack of knowledge of basic geography and is pitiful.

 

Give me more credit than that.  I'm well aware of the difference between legal consequences and private social and economic consequences.  Multiple times on this thread, I have stated that PC is a cultural cancer, even if some aspects of the fight against it will probably need to involve legal protections.  The issue is that the combination of social media and the Internet allow the social minefield to get ever thicker (you can't hide), and the PC mob uses generic platitudes about "consequences" to hide the fact that they want the maximum possible consequences for the maximum possible number of minimal possible deviations from the progressive creed.

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6 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

Actually, in the legal realm, yes, it quite often means exactly that.

 

In the social and economic realms, of course speech can have consequences, but the PC zealots ruining this country are intent on ramping up those consequences more and more and more until we get to the death penalty for microaggressions.

Why do you do this?

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28 minutes ago, freefourur said:

 

Free speech, however does not equal consequence-free speech. 

to piggyback on @Gramarye I also think the bigger question as a society that needs to be asked is to what benefit to we gain by trying to regulate thought and expression. If you seek to silence opposition, you drive it underground until it eventually will explode somewhere and often have very bad consequences. If you do not fear negative thought and expression and allow it a place to exist, it stays content in its little corner and fails to gain traction. You know where it is lying at all times and you can defend against it.

 

You cant get rid of free thought so we should not try.

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15 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

 

 

Give me more credit than that.  I'm well aware of the difference between legal consequences and private social and economic consequences.  Multiple times on this thread, I have stated that PC is a cultural cancer, even if some aspects of the fight against it will probably need to involve legal protections.  The issue is that the combination of social media and the Internet allow the social minefield to get ever thicker (you can't hide), and the PC mob uses generic platitudes about "consequences" to hide the fact that they want the maximum possible consequences for the maximum possible number of minimal possible deviations from the progressive creed.

You do realize that you posted this as a response to a post of mine, when in fact I have little knowledge of who you are, the things that you stand for, or what in the world you could be referring to?  You could not possibly have been farther from my mind when I posted that.  If I was thinking in reference to anything you had posted and was referencing that I would most definitely have quoted you.

 

* I was in fact thinking of or referencing people I have had direct contact with IRL.

Edited by Toddguy

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4 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Why do you do this?

 

 That's what the Right does: extrapolates. If they weren't extrapolators they wouldn't be on that side. The viewpoint would barely exist without it.

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Just now, Toddguy said:

You do realize that you posted this as a response to a post of mine, when in fact I have little knowledge of who you are, the things that you stand for, or what in the world you could be referring to?  You could not possibly have been farther from my mind when I posted that.

 

Wires crossed, maybe, but this was in a series of posts about what free speech is and isn't, and in the same series, I was responding to freefourur and addressing the issue of private (non-governmental) consequences for speech.  (That's why I edited my post to include yours there rather than making a new separate response.  Maybe I put them together when I shouldn't have.)

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3 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

Wires crossed, maybe, but this was in a series of posts about what free speech is and isn't, and in the same series, I was responding to freefourur and addressing the issue of private (non-governmental) consequences for speech.  (That's why I edited my post to include yours there rather than making a new separate response.  Maybe I put them together when I shouldn't have.)

Ok then..no problem if it was an honest mistake. I just really don't know that many people on here and what their beliefs on particular subjects are, and I have not been following this thread that closely lately, so I was a bit "WTF?" if you get what I mean.  No big deal now.

 

*Clashing with people over politics, religions, etc. is not really the reason I am on this forum. I have enough of that crap IRL with family to last seven lifetimes lol.

Edited by Toddguy

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15 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Why do you do this?

 

Bad faith hypotheticals legitimize the hatred of the supposed "PC culture."  Otherwise, to freefourur's points, the facts would show these kind of "PC culture run amok" incidents to be pretty rare.

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

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8 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Bad faith hypotheticals legitimize the hatred of the supposed "PC culture."  Otherwise, to freefourur's points, the facts would show these kind of "PC culture run amok" incidents to be pretty rare.

Instead of engaging the topic he chooses to argue in bad faith.

Edited by freefourur

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21 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

 

 That's what the Right does: extrapolates. If they weren't extrapolators they wouldn't be on that side. The viewpoint would barely exist without it.

 

Where does this end?  "Merely" giving the James Damore treatment to everyone who expresses a politically incorrect view at work?  "See, Gramarye was just extrapolating/exaggerating about the death penalty, we were totally satisfied with driving them all out of the workforce!"  <wink wink nudge nudge>  "It's just 'consequences!'"

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1 minute ago, freefourur said:

^ is Damore the first person to get fired for saying dumb things? Always the victims. 

 

The "dumb things" he said had the anonymous agreement of 30-40% of Google's workforce before they axed him.  I'm sure that people in those internal forums quickly learned to give the "proper" answers after that, even anonymously.

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4 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

The "dumb things" he said had the anonymous agreement of 30-40% of Google's workforce before they axed him.  I'm sure that people in those internal forums quickly learned to give the "proper" answers after that, even anonymously.

Conservatives get mad that they have to watch what they say at work.i learned when I was 16 years old. I just dont make myself a victim about it.

 

The whole Damore thing is a further demonstration of right wing media blowing something out of proportion.  

 

I mean, people get fired merely for being gay, but Damore is the real injustice.

 

 

 

Edited by freefourur

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1 hour ago, Gramarye said:

Conservative concern for political correctness, wokeness, cancel culture, SJW activism, etc. is not about poorly made banh mi.  It is about the "be woke or go broke" attitude of the modern left that believes that almost any political disagreement with progressive pieties is worth unrestricted social and economic warfare: lost jobs, boycotts, campus tribunals that make mockeries of due process, social media brigading (including with respect to nonpublic figures such as ordinary students, not those who court the public eye), and more.  Those who disagree are to be deplatformed, dehumanized, and destroyed.  Donald Trump capitalized on this in 2016 and it remains one of his most potent campaign issues in 2020.  There is a poster here that thinks that Trump will not leave office in 2020 even if the election goes against him, but it seems to be that he's looking the wrong direction for people who think that holding the "wrong" views must not be tolerated.

 

Pretty amazing that this post was made unironically.

 

-The Republican Party - and by extension, virtually all non-Never Trump conservatism - is about loyalty to Trump or go broke.  Remember when conservatives tried to cancel Nike because they had a marketing campaign with Colin Kaepernick?  A slight they perceived as personal because Trump called kneeling NFL protestors "sons of b******" - dehumanizing language you are so concerned about, btw.  Is any dissent allowed in the Republican Party?  Justin Amash was forced out of the caucus because he chose loyalty to the Constitution over loyalty to Trump.  Trump is now holding fundraisers and hanging dollars over the heads of Senators to ensure they won't vote to remove him from office.  John Kasich has been ostracized from GOP circles because he said the President should be held accountable.  Trump threatens to primary House Reps if they don't vote how he wants.  Political disagreement, then, appears to equal unrestricted social and economic warfare in conservative circles.

-If mockeries of due process are so bad then where is the criticism of Trump's "lock her up" chants re: Clinton, Omar, AOC, etc.?  Not just the chants to rile up the base, but the promises to investigate Clinton, the promises to use the power of the Presidency to investigate his political rivals?  Or Trump's calls for immediate deportation of people apprehended at the border?  Republicans are now trying to violate the Whistleblower Protection Act to out the whistleblower.  Irony must be dead if you are so concerned for due process but say nothing of Trump's consistent attempts to trample due process and, in fact, hypothetically support Trump in 2020 over Warren, Sanders, etc.

-The official White House position is that "Never Trumpers" are "human scum."  This is dehumanizing - every person who doesn't agree with and bow to Trump is human scum.  What about Trump's constant calling of immigrants "infesting" our country - literal fascist dehumanizing language.  Calling anyone who flips on him a "rat" - dehumanizing.  The list goes on and on.  But not a peep about that dehumanizing language.

 

I still remain unconvinced that conservatism isn't just projection anymore.

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

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18 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I mean, people get fired merely for being gay, but Damore is the real injustice.

 

Don't fire (or at least don't call publicly for the firing of) - the nurse who says gay men are "**** ****** *****." (I won't type out here - you can find the actual insults if you choose)

 

Do allow to be fired - gay people, simply because of their sexual orientation

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

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1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Don't fire (or at least don't call publicly for the firing of) - the nurse who says gay men are "**** ****** *****." (I won't type out here - you can find the actual insults if you choose)

 

Do allow to be fired - gay people, simply because of their sexual orientation

Don't stop at firing for being gay(I was given the chance to quit or be fired by my boss back in the 90's-and it can still happen over 20 years later)don't forget being denied service at a restaurant, gas station, or any type of public accommodation or area of service because of being gay or simply being perceived as being gay.

 

But Gawd forbid somebody has to *cry* bake a damn cake with two male figures on the top instead of a man and woman! Oh the Humanity! Violating their religious rights-while they bake cakes right and left for people they know damn well are adulterers, cheaters, liars, blended fiber wearers and shellfish eaters, etc. as well as people they despise but can't discriminate against like religious nuts of another religion because that is illegal. smh. 

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What I've observed myself for the past 20+ years:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/opinion/warren-biden-trump.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

 

On Monday night I sat at a table full of young adults who are the product of Cincinnati's east side, its expensive private high schools, and college careers that included, I was told, a class that took a class trip to Amsterdam to study legal prostitution, legal marijuana, etc.  They had each grown up going on ski trips and traveling around the world, but had very little contact with the U.S. working class. 

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^The kind of East Sider you're talking about are extremely susceptible to flipping Republican at the drop of a hat, like if an unexpected tax bill makes them miss a planned vacation.

Edited by GCrites80s

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49 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

What I've observed myself for the past 20+ years:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/08/opinion/warren-biden-trump.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

 

On Monday night I sat at a table full of young adults who are the product of Cincinnati's east side, its expensive private high schools, and college careers that included, I was told, a class that took a class trip to Amsterdam to study legal prostitution, legal marijuana, etc.  They had each grown up going on ski trips and traveling around the world, but had very little contact with the U.S. working class. 

 

Sounds like you're living in a bubble. I'm liberal because my grandfather worked hard in a coal mine his entire life and needed the assistance he got from the black lung fund (and still died at 58). I'm liberal because my father has worked as an autoworker his entire life and has benefited from being a card-carrying member of a union. I'm liberal because my mother does not have healthcare coverage despite working hard her entire life. She continues to work with a disability because she does not want to be a drain on society, but she shouldn't have to make that choice or feel that way. I'm liberal because grants, scholarships, and loans were the only way I could get a college degree. And a second one. And a graduate degree. I'm liberal because everyone deserves a chance at success, whether they are black, Hispanic, gay, differently abled, or a coal-miner's grandson.

 

And when I talk to folks in my neighborhood (Northside) I find that there are lots of people with stories similar to mine. In fact, when I talk to people across this city and the country I find the same. So if you feel like the people you are hanging out with are insincere in their political beliefs maybe get out of Hyde Park every now and then.

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33 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Sounds like you're living in a bubble. I'm liberal because my grandfather worked hard in a coal mine his entire life and needed the assistance he got from the black lung fund (and still died at 58). I'm liberal because my father has worked as an autoworker his entire life and has benefited from being a card-carrying member of a union. I'm liberal because my mother does not have healthcare coverage despite working hard her entire life. She continues to work with a disability because she does not want to be a drain on society, but she shouldn't have to make that choice or feel that way. I'm liberal because grants, scholarships, and loans were the only way I could get a college degree. And a second one. And a graduate degree. I'm liberal because everyone deserves a chance at success, whether they are black, Hispanic, gay, differently abled, or a coal-miner's grandson.

 

And when I talk to folks in my neighborhood (Northside) I find that there are lots of people with stories similar to mine. In fact, when I talk to people across this city and the country I find the same. So if you feel like the people you are hanging out with are insincere in their political beliefs maybe get out of Hyde Park every now and then.

 

You might want to read that article. Your post unintentionally demonstrates "How the Insufferably Woke Help Trump."

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1 hour ago, Ram23 said:

 

You might want to read that article. Your post unintentionally demonstrates "How the Insufferably Woke Help Trump."

 

I read the article. Please explain to me how my post does any such thing. It's insufferably woke to say that working people deserve a chance at success? Get out of here.

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Most of this comes down to the fact that the liberals have won the culture war. It's no longer acceptable for the average person to be publicly obviously racist or bigoted (unless they are sheltered by a conservative peer group or have the backing of powerful people). The alt-right knows this which is why they use dog-whistles and what-about-ism to provide plausible deniability.

 

We have come a long way since 1967, where Hunter S Thompson was ridiculed for being against beating your wife

 

 

We still have a long way to go.

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Uh-oh.  Let's get angry about some 120 year-old paintings by a dude who has been dead for 100 years:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/18/arts/design/gauguin-national-gallery-london.html?action=click&module=Editors Picks&pgtype=Homepage

 

I remember first seeing his paintings in an art history class when I was a freshman in college, and I was like well that's a little wild.  I memorized the slide and moved on with my life. 

12gauguin1-superJumbo.jpg

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12 minutes ago, freefourur said:

 

Conservatives like the free-market until it doesn't work in their favor.  Facts don't care about your feelings.

 

Company makes business decision to not donate to anti-LGBTQ orgs.

 

Conservatives: THE LEFT IS OUT OF CONTROL


Very Stable Genius

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11 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Uh-oh.  Let's get angry about some 120 year-old paintings by a dude who has been dead for 100 years:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/18/arts/design/gauguin-national-gallery-london.html?action=click&module=Editors Picks&pgtype=Homepage

 

I remember first seeing his paintings in an art history class when I was a freshman in college, and I was like well that's a little wild.  I memorized the slide and moved on with my life. 

12gauguin1-superJumbo.jpg

 

Reading past this headline is just a nuanced look at the person. Is it out of bounds for us to have biographical information about artists?

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2 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Company makes business decision to not donate to anti-LGBTQ orgs.

 

Conservatives: THE LEFT IS OUT OF CONTROL

Shapiro is not saying he has a problem with the fact they are changing their charities. Only that they are changing them to placate politicians in more urban locales to ease their approval of stores. He does not even mind that part of the analysis if it is truly about a business decision, however, he feels that by making this move, in the long run they are opening themselves up to  being held hostage by the militant PC crowd.

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7 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Shapiro is not saying he has a problem with the fact they are changing their charities. Only that they are changing them to placate politicians in more urban locales to ease their approval of stores. He does not even mind that part of the analysis if it is truly about a business decision, however, he feels that by making this move, in the long run they are opening themselves up to  being held hostage by the militant PC crowd.

You dont see how ridiculous this sounds do you?

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If businesses that sell things to people start to open locations where more people live, they might have to change their business practices so that their brands appeal to more people. It's really quite the conundrum.

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