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Klingaling87

Cleveland: Downtown: The Lumen

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^Yeah, especially given the ostensible mission of PHS, the lack of retail is tough to forgive. Looks like adding retail would cost 18 revenue-generating parking spaces and the expense of building out the storefronts. Easy for me to say without looking at their pro forma, but they really need to find a way to add that space now, even with a weak retail market.

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^^I think the argument should be framed to planning commission as a safety issue- that's going to be a busy sidewalk (we hope), and having cars going in and out will be dangerous to pedestrians.

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I'm happy that everything is moving along briskly, and certainly, there are some legitimate complaints that they appear to be addressing (the bays to "maybe" be turned into retail in the future), but I have to agree with some others that I think the entrance/exit for the parking garage onto Euclid is a mistake that should be rectified. Anywho, pretty sweet otherwise.

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This is such a great project......can the planning commission do anything about the garage?  I understand separate entrance for residence, but cant that be put on the back side in the alley?  And it HAS to have storefronts

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This is such a great project......can the planning commission do anything about the garage?  I understand separate entrance for residence, but cant that be put on the back side in the alley?  And it HAS to have storefronts

 

Looks like CPC did ask PHS to study the ground-level uses. It appears the project is coming back before Design Review this week, although the draft agenda doesn't reflect that....

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/brd/detailDR.php?ID=2507&CASE=DF%202017-041

 

Date: June 15, 2017

Committee: Staff

Action Type: Conceptual Approval

Conditions:

-Study the ground level of the building plan (streetscape plan).

 

-Study the color of the buidling.

 

-East 17th Street facade/elevation details

 

-Study illumination of building and potential signage

 

-Have renderings which show the true window system being proposed.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Another harsh commentary on the design of the PHS Tower and even more damning about awarding design contracts to out-of-town firms...

 

Personal View: Playhouse Square proposal is another disappointment from out-of-town architect

July 09, 2017

By WILLIAM T. EBERHARD

 

The damaging trend of awarding important commissions to out-of-town architects has left Northeast Ohio with a mixed landscape of mediocre buildings and drained billions of dollars from our local economy. The Playhouse Square Foundation's announcement of a proposed apartment tower and garage is yet another such project with a design that completely fails to relate to its context.

 

The proposed design is a tall glass box with no scale or genuine articulation designed by the Chicago firm of SCB. Chicago Tribune critic Blair Kamin characterizes SCB as a "workhorse" firm, which Plain Dealer art/ architecture critic Steven Litt observes is "a less than ringing endorsement." The project's design defects include:

 

Scale: The proposed 34-story building towers over the distinguished 20-story Keith Building at East 17th and Euclid Avenue. The new building could achieve its density with a more complimentary, lower mass that stretches farther west, which would, in fact, deliver more units with lake views — a benchmark of apartment value and desirability.

 

MORE:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170709/NEWS/170709864/personal-view-playhouse-square-proposal-is-another-disappointment


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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In cincinnati, it seemed as though only non-local firms were proposing the bigger, more interesting projects (especially from Indy and Louisville). I know Cleveland has some good local work on projects like 515 Euclid and with some of the smaller town home projects, but have they overall been as successful with proposals for getting financing/etc in line for larger projects as the out-of-town firms? Genuinely curious - as much as I try to follow all the Cleveland developments I can never keep track of who is building what!


“To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”

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These get old... There are plenty of great buildings locwlly that have been designed by Cleveland design firms. Nothing wrong with a little contrast in the theatre district.

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I thought the proposed tower looked really cool until i read this,,,,,,although I agree on the garage.  Still hoping that gets changed and they put storefronts on the ground level

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I thought the proposed tower looked really cool until i read this,,,,,,although I agree on the garage.  Still hoping that gets changed and they put storefronts on the ground level

 

I agree with many of the points the author raises.  I do, however, think the piece would have more credibility if it wasn't couched in terms of "you should have hired a local architect."  There are obviously some great architecture firms in town, but that doesn't mean everything those firms have done has been great.  And of course, the screed loses a lot of its punch when you consider that some Cleveland firms are retained to do work outside of Cleveland.  Does that mean those cites are not design focused? 

 

That said, I do hope the design review board takes note of his concerns, some of which are valid IMO, especially the Euclid Avenue garage frontage, height of the tower, and facade material. 

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In cincinnati, it seemed as though only non-local firms were proposing the bigger, more interesting projects (especially from Indy and Louisville). I know Cleveland has some good local work on projects like 515 Euclid and with some of the smaller town home projects, but have they overall been as successful with proposals for getting financing/etc in line for larger projects as the out-of-town firms? Genuinely curious - as much as I try to follow all the Cleveland developments I can never keep track of who is building what!

 

What Louisville firm has built anything in Cincinnati recently? The Banks is an Atlanta firm (Carter Dawson), 4th and Race is Flaherty and Collins (Indy), Skyhouse is...somewhere in the south. 8th and Sycamore and 7th and Broadway were locals.

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I 100% agree that the design is boring. However, I'm willing to live with a boring (not outright ugly) tower, as long as they ADD RETAIL AND MOVE THE GARAGE ENTRANCE TO BROWNELL COURT.

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I 100% agree that the design is boring. However, I'm willing to live with a boring (not outright ugly) tower, as long as they ADD RETAIL AND MOVE THE GARAGE ENTRANCE TO BROWNELL COURT.

 

That garage entrance won't fly with the theater-going suburban crowd. 

 

What I'd like to see is the ground floor set up for either or--meaning it can be parking to start, but have another entrance in the design so if they ever decide to convert the ground floor it can be turnkey.   

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I agree with the author on quite a few points, especially the placement and functions of the parking garage.

 

My question is what would their firm propose? Unless I'm missing something, the most high profile *built* project in their portfolio is the rework of the Galleria's East Ninth/St. Clair section into Dollar Bank's regional headquarters. The most envelope pushing design I saw on their site was redesigning the top floors of the Tower at Erieview into condos, and even then nothing made me say "wow, waaay better and more creative than SCB".  :wtf:

 

http://www.eberhardarchitects.com/

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I 100% agree that the design is boring. However, I'm willing to live with a boring (not outright ugly) tower, as long as they ADD RETAIL AND MOVE THE GARAGE ENTRANCE TO BROWNELL COURT.

 

That garage entrance won't fly with the theater-going suburban crowd. 

 

What I'd like to see is the ground floor set up for either or--meaning it can be parking to start, but have another entrance in the design so if they ever decide to convert the ground floor it can be turnkey. 

 

I think the influence of the "theater-going suburban crowd" is way overstated. But regardless - that's irrelevant here. The garage entrance for the theater-goers is on the E. 17th side, and I have no issue with that. I just want the residential garage entrance to be moved to Brownell Court, and I do not buy the excuse that residents will refuse to move into this building just because their garage access is in the back. I mean, have you seen some of the awkward parking garage accesses for many of the existing high-end residences downtown? The Pinnacle, E. 4th residential, etc. I also don't think Euclid is even a particularly convenient spot for the garage entrance (it's not always an easy street to drive on with all the transit and pedestrians to contend with.

 

I remain unconvinced that there's any good reason to not move the residential garage entrance to the back court. I'm also unconvinced that they can't justify retail currently. Right now, there are no retail vacancies in the immediate area - plus consider all the new residents at this tower (and at the Edge as well) who would make use of ground-floor retail at this location.

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^to that point... most of the 60+ group that come

To see plays do so as a part of a larger group. Parking on Brownell wouldn't be a deal breaker in my opinion, so long as there is parking

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I don't believe I have read anything on the project where the owner or architect actually explains the "reasoning" for the residential entrance on Euclid (could somebody direct me if there is something out there as I would like to understand  their thinking).  As noted the theater parking garage entrance is on East 17.  I think the suggestion that the Euclid entrance is more convenient  is just board speculation and chatter.  I don't know how you can suggest it is actually more convenient since it is a right turn only both in and out.

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It is also dangerous taking a car onto a busy sidewalk.  I would focus on that argument as "safety first" is always a defensible reason for making design changes, while "pedestrian friendliness" is iffy (unfortunately).

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BIBIBOPGrill is coming to Uptown. A fast casual restaurant like this is a natural for the ground floor of the Playhouse Square Tower Parking Garage. Having the option of a fast meal available before show is a must for a theater district. https://t.co/ndocrTRk9y


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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When are they scheduled to come back to design review?  I'd love to know if they have made any changes to the original garage plan!!

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^This week.

 

Design Review:

 

Schematic Design

Approval 1.

Project:  DF2017

-

041: Playhouse Square

Residential Tower

Project Address:

Euclid Avenue & East 17th Street 

 

Project Representative:

Devon Patterson, Solomon Cordwell Buenz; Brad Soderwall, Hines;

Art Falco, Playhouse Square 

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2017/08182017/DRC-2017_8_17.pdf

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Hmmmmmm......I'm not sure i like the addition of the white panels.  And still no retail on ground level.

 

I'm quite certain I do not like the addition of the white panels. To me that got way uglier way fast. I'll still take it over a parking lot though.

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Well I still have the same qualms over this project, mostly regarding the garage, I like this version much better. I think the white adds good definition to the building, helping it pop instead of just blend into the sky.

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The new design looks awful! With all the Arts Cleveland has to offer, it doesn't make ANY sense to me why they never translate to the buildings!! Don't bother building it with the white panels, keep the parking lot.

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I think the updates look fine. IMO, the problem was with the garage facade not the tower, and it doesn't look the garage changed at all.

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What would be the reasoning that they can not put the parking garage under the tower and not off to the side of it?

 

$$$


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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^Actually it is under the building, or at least it's under most of the building, as you can see in "Playhouse Square Img09" on the left side of the image. They couldn't fit the entire garage under the footprint of the building because it would be a horribly inefficient parking garage and would need 10+ floors to get enough parking to support the apartments above. Either that, or the building's footprint would need to take up almost the entire parcel and you would be left with a much shorter building (probably O or U shaped) to get the same number of units. And that wouldn't solve the problem of the massive garage facade anyway.

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I wonder if they explored the option of adding some shallow aparment units to the garage frontage along Euclid. and maybe add a few floors to the height to compensate. That would be much nicer then a stand-alone 4 story garage (no matter how you dress it up). Especially considering a large goal of this project is to activate the area more.

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In image 3 there is an area designated as "potential retail" along Euclid. Was this part of the original design?

 

I believe so.  If I recall correctly from the original press regarding the project, the idea is that if in the future retail becomes viable option, parking spaces behind the faux store front windows would be taken over and retail built, although I don't think if would be very deep.

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Those white panels look HORRIBLE. They cheapen the original design which, albeit somewhat derivative, is still a modern take adopted by more progressive cities. The new Hilton is our first really modern building and a welcome break from the monotony of Cleveland beige. The PS tower was a chance to continue that progressive design. Not with these changes. The white stripes remind me of some of those generic '60's/70's towers built in other nondescript mid-western towns like Des Moines and Omaha.

 

My only question is were the changes prompted by the Review Committee or did the architects add them before any input by the committee? While we can dispute the garage issue the tower itself wasn't broke - no need to fix it.

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Yeesh! Those white panels are indeed awful.  If a change is to be made on the East elevation, it should be adding some slight sculptural modification to add interest, not the erzats application of thoe (white?) colored strips.

 

Who wore it better?  See the Ohio Savings Plaza - which actually used such treatment to a decent effect, albeit decades ago.

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