Jump to content
KJP

Immigration

Recommended Posts

This is an interesting conversation regarding immigration. The Central Valley of CA is largely farms, and the people there are mostly republican in their voting patterns. By the article, most voted for Trump, under the belief that he was overblowing his immigration stance. The article focuses on how many of the farms are staffed by what we would classify as illegal immigrants, and many (off the record) indicated they realized that many if not most of their employees used falsified documentation to gain their employment. Nevertheless, they serve a need, and there is significant concern about the impact of an aggressive deportation campaign on these farms.

 

 

California Farmers Backed Trump, but Now Fear Losing Field Workers

 

MERCED, Calif. — Jeff Marchini and others in the Central Valley here bet their farms on the election of Donald J. Trump. His message of reducing regulations and taxes appealed to this Republican stronghold, one of Mr. Trump’s strongest bases of support in the state.

 

As for his promises about cracking down on illegal immigrants, many assumed Mr. Trump’s pledges were mostly just talk. But two weeks into his administration, Mr. Trump has signed executive orders that have upended the country’s immigration laws. Now farmers here are deeply alarmed about what the new policies could mean for their workers, most of whom are unauthorized, and the businesses that depend on them.

 

“Everything’s coming so quickly,” Mr. Marchini said. “We’re not loading people into buses or deporting them, that’s not happening yet.” As he looked out over a crew of workers bent over as they rifled through muddy leaves to find purple heads of radicchio, he said that as a businessman, Mr. Trump would know that farmers had invested millions of dollars into produce that is growing right now, and that not being able to pick and sell those crops would represent huge losses for the state economy. “I’m confident that he can grasp the magnitude and the anxiety of what’s happening now.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/us/california-farmers-backed-trump-but-now-fear-losing-field-workers.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

 

Meanwhile, in Arizona, this is happening:

 

She Showed Up Yearly to Meet Immigration Agents. Now They’re Deporting Her.

 

PHOENIX — For eight years, Guadalupe García de Rayos had checked in at the federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement office here, a requirement since she was caught using a fake Social Security number during a raid in 2008 at a water park where she worked.

 

Every year since then, she has walked in and out of the meetings after a brief review of her case and some questions.

 

But not this year.

 

On Wednesday, immigration agents arrested Ms. Rayos, 35, and began procedures to send her back to Mexico, a country she has not seen since she left it 21 years ago.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/08/us/phoenix-guadalupe-garcia-de-rayos.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of Trump's election ads asked people to change votes they'd already made for Clinton.  It showed a white lady in a voting booth just standing there pondering.  I wonder how many Trumpies want to change their votes now.  Too late, but remember this the next time you're pondering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The EU continues to expand their wall and limit movement of migrants:

 

Migrant crisis: EU leaders agree plan to stop Libya influx

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38850380

 

EU Extends Schengen Border Controls for Three Months

 

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/225117-eu-extends-schengen-border-controls-for-three-months

 

 

 

With multiple borders of varying security and land connection, the dangers posed to Europe by Syrian, Iraqi, and other migrants is a different animal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Through authorized channels?  My understanding is that they are walking across the borders in Europe, so it is more like the mariel boatlift.  For refugees from the Middle East to come into the US, there is a two year process of 'extreme vetting' that they have to go through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many Middle East refugees are coming each year into the EU vs the USA?

 

How many are being held by a human rights abuser in Turkey who the EU promised 3 billion Euro to keep them off the continent? Three billion euro to a dictator who is putting Putin to shame.

 

If we are to have an honest discussion let's put all the cards on the table. Thinking the EU is more noble than the US is just not true.

 

^Through authorized channels?  My understanding is that they are walking across the borders in Europe, so it is more like the mariel boatlift.  For refugees from the Middle East to come into the US, there is a two year process of 'extreme vetting' that they have to go through.

 

What border can you walk across? Maybe from the Middle East through Ukraine and Russia to Finland. Can't get into Western Europe through Eastern Europe. Inflows are a trickle compared to this time last year.

 

Turkey will keep you out. Greece will send you back to Turkey. Libya is getting money to keep Africans out because it's an open sieve with no government there. If the EU can shut the Libyan door they can keep most migrants out.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All the cards....

 

Australia is running a prison camp on a New Guinea island to keep refugees/immigrants out.

 

South Korea and Japan aren't willing to accept new refugees/immigrants, yet are they not part of the wealthy global community? Christ, Japan's population is in decline.

 

What about the UAE, Saudi or Israel? Basically one non-dictatorial Middle Eastern country has accepted a large set of migrants and refugees: Jordan. Unfortunately it is not nearly as wealthy as some of their nearby neighbors who should take more.

 

Yet these stories get very little press in the US and EU.

 

The global immigration issue is far more complex than "Trump sucks" but you couldn't tell that watching CNN, Fox, MSNBC, BBC, etc.

 

Just for the record, I'm very pro-immigration but that doesn't excuse Western news agencies from painting a simple story out of an issue that has many, many layers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^It's Trump's inflammatory rhetoric which gets the most play.  And a few poster on here who follow him closely would tell you that is intentional.  It's a metaphor, or something about feel.  I can't really explain it that well. 

 

Regardless, I don't really understand your point.  Are we no longer that shining beacon which separates us from those other nations?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^It's Trump's inflammatory rhetoric which gets the most play.  And a few poster on here who follow him closely would tell you that is intentional.  It's a metaphor, or something about feel.  I can't really explain it that well. 

 

Regardless, I don't really understand your point.  Are we no longer that shining beacon which separates us from those other nations?

 

The US accepts far more immigrants than any other country, even under Trump. I'll bet the gap widens this year considering Germany and the UK are #2 and #3. No worries about the beacon there.

 

These people don't have to languish. If all wealthy nations opened their doors there would be no need for a crisis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you think we should all 'open our doors' to these refugees?  No vetting process?  I still don't understand your point.  Was the two year wait we had on them not long enough?

 

I'd agree that all wealthy nations should be more welcoming to refugees and should also foot more of the bill for protecting the trade routes, peace-keeping missions, and other humanitarian causes.  You won't find any debate from me there.  But I also don't think what they do or do not do should dictate what we SHOULD do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you think we should all 'open our doors' to these refugees?  No vetting process?  I still don't understand your point.  Was the two year wait we had on them not long enough?

 

I'd agree that all wealthy nations should be more welcoming to refugees and should also foot more of the bill for protecting the trade routes, peace-keeping missions, and other humanitarian causes.  You won't find any debate from me there.  But I also don't think what they do or do not do should dictate what we SHOULD do. 

 

I don't get your point either. Immigration is a global issue. Of course the US should work with other nations.

 

The western media should point out the xenophobic countries like Japan. They should ask why they EU is paying a dictator to keep immigrants out. Or why there is a "prison camp" near Australia. Yet, these questions go quiet because for some reason it's easier to pretend a wall that has yet to be built is the largest immigration problem in the world. That's fantasy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are overblowing what you are claiming is being overblown.

 

R A refugee crisis is a global issue, or at least it should be.  Immigration is not.  Each country can set their own immigration policies.  I only care about my own country's immigration policies, and particularly that those policies are not discriminatory or could be reasonably viewed as being discriminatory.  And the aim of my take on the issues will be at the people making the decisions, not those reporting on the decisions that are made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Each country sets their own trade standards. Therefore trade is not a global issue. Wait....

 

We are all human. You want to ignore countries that treat people like cattle or won't let them in because they're xenophobes. that's fine, I can't. Agree to disagree. I can't my point make any clearer to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy there Trigger.  I don't ignore what other countries do.  But I also don't use what they do that I find to be reprehensible to excuse the same actions from my own country.  I don't care much for the "yeah but.." approach.  Never have. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy there Trigger.  I don't ignore what other countries do.  But I also don't use what they do that I find to be reprehensible to excuse the same actions from my own country.  I don't care much for the "yeah but.." approach.  Never have. 

 

Easy there yourself. You just don't like the whole package unwrapped. Can't have an informed discussion without all the information and sometimes it's just easier to take the Western media blue pill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, sure, we can start making assumptions on a personal level.  I have a few in mind.  Or we could just stick to the issues.

 

Right, I'm not getting personal. You were the one that called me "Trigger".

 

The thread is called "immigration" There's a complete story. You're arguing that I should care about a piece of that story because I'm American then gloss over the rest. Agree to disagree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^From Bloomberg the same year the crackdown happened.

 

Why American's won't do dirty jobs

 

'There’s no shortage of people he could give those jobs to. In Alabama, some 211,000 people are out of work. In rural Perry County, where Harvest Select is located, the unemployment rate is 18.2 percent, twice the national average. One of the big selling points of the immigration law was that it would free up jobs that Republican Governor Robert Bentley said immigrants had stolen from recession-battered Americans. Yet native Alabamians have not come running to fill these newly liberated positions. Many employers think the law is ludicrous and fought to stop it. Immigrants aren’t stealing anything from anyone, they say. Businesses turned to foreign labor only because they couldn’t find enough Americans to take the work they were offering."

 

"Joey Bearden, who owns a 30-acre farm nearby, waits for his turn to speak. “The governor stepped in and started this bill because he wants to put people back to work—they’re not coming!” says Bearden. “I’ve been farming 25 years, and I can count on my hand the number of Americans that stuck.”

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45246594/ns/business-us_business/t/why-americans-wont-do-dirty-jobs/#.WKHVLNcrLIU

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the movie McFarland did a really good job showing the life of a 'picker'.  Yeah, not too many Bobby Joe's from Hicksville Alabama ain't lining up to do that work.  Nor is that work available to unemployed people who live in the inner cities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Joey Bearden, who owns a 30-acre farm nearby, waits for his turn to speak. “The governor stepped in and started this bill because he wants to put people back to work—they’re not coming!” says Bearden. “I’ve been farming 25 years, and I can count on my hand the number of Americans that stuck.”

 

Well, capitalism suggests that the jobs aren't paying well enough or the working conditions are pretty bad -- the tomato picker interviewed in the story says he's lucky to have never passed out on the job and has a pinched nerve in his neck from bending over all the time.  Sounds like a certain physical condition is necessary just to be able to do the job, but if you are physically able then work-related injuries are likely.  Seems like we should be finding another way to do the job -- more breaks for workers, medical coverage, better pay -- to attract those workers they can't find.

 

I hear similar stories about engineering jobs going unfilled as justification for bringing in foreign engineers -- but if I was an engineer and you offered me less than what I thought my time was worth, I would just go find something more lucrative to do.  I expect engineers are more versatile in that way and thus have more alternatives than farm laborers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Farms are already heavily subsidized.  How would we add better pay or medical coverage?  Other than joining the rest of the industrialized nations with a single payer system, of course...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, we'd have to be willing to pay more for a tomato or a head of lettuce.

 

It took decades, more than a century really, to get Americans off the farm and into industrial and now postindustrial jobs.  I think it will take some time, but that it isn't impossible that a combination of higher wages, better work conditions, and transportation improvements (maybe charter vans or small buses from poor urban areas to close in farms, for example) could get American workers back into farm jobs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More likely, we'd just import more of our fresh food from Mexico, assuming new trade barriers don't negate the lower labor costs. There might also be a shift towards higher tech greenhouse operations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the usa took in 85K refugees in 2016 and, not too shabby, ohio was ranked fifth among states for taking them in:

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/12/06/just-10-states-resettled-more-than-half-of-recent-refugees-to-u-s/

 

only 4200 though -- and no clear idea where they went to in-state.

 

congo was the top 2016 refugee country to the usa and minnesota led states in accepting refugees per capita (124 per 100k).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, while this is not immigration, it is border control and they're treating people like s*** who don't deserve to be treated that way....

 

Australian children's author Mem Fox detained by US border control: 'I sobbed like a baby'

Author of Possum Magic was aggressively questioned for two hours over her visa status and later received an apology for her treatment by border guards

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/australian-childrens-author-mem-fox-detained-by-us-border-control-i-sobbed-like-a-baby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×