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The Trump Presidency

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Can we stop calling them Americans now?  Because that goes against everything America has ever been- it's system of government, the Constitution, its values as a nation... 

 

And it's not becoming dangerous.  We're well into dangerous territory. 

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9 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

Can we stop calling them Americans now?  Because that goes against everything America has ever been- it's system of government, the Constitution, its values as a nation... 

 

And it's not becoming dangerous.  We're well into dangerous territory. 

 

No. I never will. They will always be Americans, no matter how wrong they are, they are Americans. This is our country, this is our dark chapter to correct. They’re still Americans, even when they don’t extoll American ideals.

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38 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

No. I never will. They will always be Americans, no matter how wrong they are, they are Americans. This is our country, this is our dark chapter to correct. They’re still Americans, even when they don’t extoll American ideals.

 

I guess in a technical sense, sure.  But I think the term has more meaning than just being born or naturalized in the US.  It also means upholding our values, our principles, our system and norms.  This isn't just about a difference of opinion or giving thoughtful critiques on our problems, but rather the wholesale rejection of everything America is and has ever been.  I've never been the type of person to be all "rah rah, America f*** yeah!", but there's something so deeply offensive about all this. 

All my life, I've been critical of things the US does, about its questionable history on discrimination and freedoms, about its meddling in the world, about its love for guns and its unrealistic views on unfettered capitalism.  Through it all, I've never lost sight of the fact that I am happy to be American... that I have been proud of what it has accomplished even despite its many, many flaws and mistakes. This feels like an attack, not just on myself, but of my country.  No, actually it IS an attack.  Not yet with bombs and soldiers, but with a belief system that seeks to destroy all of its foundations, which to me is even worse.  That's about as un-American, IMO, as it gets. 

So what do we do about it?  Obviously the voting box is crucial, but if your theory works out, that may not even matter.  Then what? 

Edited by jonoh81

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12 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

I guess in a technical sense, sure.  But I think the term has more meaning than just being born or naturalized in the US.  It also means upholding our values, our principles, our system and norms.  This isn't just about a difference of opinion or giving thoughtful critiques on our problems, but rather the wholesale rejection of everything America is and has ever been.  I've never been the type of person to be all "rah rah, America f*** yeah!", but there's something so deeply offensive about all this. 

All my life, I've been critical of things the US does, about its questionable history on discrimination and freedoms, about its meddling in the world, about its love for guns and its unrealistic views on unfettered capitalism.  Through it all, I've never lost sight of the fact that I am happy to be American... that I have been proud of what it has accomplished even despite its many, many flaws and mistakes. This feels like an attack, not just on myself, but of my country.  No, actually it IS an attack.  Not yet with bombs and soldiers, but with a belief system that seeks to destroy all of its foundations, which to me is even worse.  That's about as un-American, IMO, as it gets. 

So what do we do about it?  Obviously the voting box is crucial, but if your theory works out, that may not even matter.  Then what? 

 

 

Beautiful part of America is that we all have a different, crosshatched idea of what it means to be American. 

 

The 30,000 Americans that attended a Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden in the 1930's were still American. The tens of thousands of members of the Communist party in America are still American. 

 

I agree with you though, this is an attack on our norms and our democratic institutions, and it very well could get ugly. In the end, we've seen dark times, and we've gotten through it. The current leadership vacuum worries me, as we no longer have a moral authority in the Exec. I still have faith that it will all work out, I'm just not sure the price we'll pay for it. 

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Just now, YABO713 said:

 

 

Beautiful part of America is that we all have a different, crosshatched idea of what it means to be American. 

 

The 30,000 Americans that attended a Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden in the 1930's were still American. The tens of thousands of members of the Communist party in America are still American. 

 

I agree with you though, this is an attack on our norms and our democratic institutions, and it very well could get ugly. In the end, we've seen dark times, and we've gotten through it. The current leadership vacuum worries me, as we no longer have a moral authority in the Exec. I still have faith that it will all work out, I'm just not sure the price we'll pay for it. 

I don’t think those are comparable.  None had the backing and shared vision of a sitting US president.  Yes, we’ve always had people and groups that had views that are not necessarily friendly to the US system or way of life, but they’ve always been a small minority and never had a strong voice where it could actually do consequential damage- in the Oval Office.  

This is the first time I’ve ever considered thining of Americans as not American based on a point of view, as I’ve generally agreed with you in the concept that we are a nation of many people with a very diverse set of backgrounds, politics, beliefs, etc.  But I thought that, aside from fringe groups, those differences were just based on varying ideas on making the country better- but within its actual foundations.  We are not dealing with either fringe nor a group working within the foundations.  Freedom of speech and expression is one of our foundations that supports Americans being able to have very different ideas of our country, but those are now under direct threat by those in charge of upholding them.  

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5 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

I don’t think those are comparable.  None had the backing and shared vision of a sitting US president.  Yes, we’ve always had people and groups that had views that are not necessarily friendly to the US system or way of life, but they’ve always been a small minority and never had a strong voice where it could actually do consequential damage- in the Oval Office.  

This is the first time I’ve ever considered thining of Americans as not American based on a point of view, as I’ve generally agreed with you in the concept that we are a nation of many people with a very diverse set of backgrounds, politics, beliefs, etc.  But I thought that, aside from fringe groups, those differences were just based on varying ideas on making the country better- but within its actual foundations.  We are not dealing with either fringe nor a group working within the foundations.  Freedom of speech and expression is one of our foundations that supports Americans being able to have very different ideas of our country, but those are now under direct threat by those in charge of upholding them.  

 

No, just no.  Any time we get to say that others are not American-enough is a step too far.  Even mass-murderers are not stripped of their citizenship despite their horrible views and horrible actions.

 

Advocate for better, certainly, but love thy (wrong) fellow citizen.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Foraker said:

 

No, just no.  Any time we get to say that others are not American-enough is a step too far.  Even mass-murderers are not stripped of their citizenship despite their horrible views and horrible actions.

 

Advocate for better, certainly, but love thy (wrong) fellow citizen.

 

 

 

You guys can get lost in definitions if you’d like, but I won’t.  If the name of American is so sacred that even those that betray it can’t lose it, then I don’t think it has any real meaning at all.  And if we’re supposed to truly embrace all views as equal, then you can’t really say I’m wrong, either.  Or Trump for that matter.  After all, he’s just a regular American with just a different vision for the country than us.  Who are we to say it’s wrong?

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59 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

You guys can get lost in definitions if you’d like, but I won’t.  If the name of American is so sacred that even those that betray it can’t lose it, then I don’t think it has any real meaning at all.  And if we’re supposed to truly embrace all views as equal, then you can’t really say I’m wrong, either.  Or Trump for that matter.  After all, he’s just a regular American with just a different vision for the country than us.  Who are we to say it’s wrong?

 

This is a very post modern statement and there is some validity to how difficult it is to objevtive share views of reality.  While one person may see Apple the other may see fruit, both are correct though one may be incorrect depending On the context.  

 

So it becomes increasingly important that we are able to discuss valid interpretations of the world.

 

while it is entirely valid that an Apple may be both an Apple and a fruit, it’s not entirely valid that it may be a banana.

 

the validity in question may be observed by whether or not something may be acted out in the world.

 

so to classify an American citizen as non-American without going through the American principals of fair trial is invalid.  The validity of that claim is defined in the American constitution.

 

if someone is deplorable enough to have citizenship stripped by the courts, then there may be argument for non-American,   but FFS let’s be careful how far we take these classifications.

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5 hours ago, tklg said:

 

This is a very post modern statement and there is some validity to how difficult it is to objevtive share views of reality.  While one person may see Apple the other may see fruit, both are correct though one may be incorrect depending On the context.  

 

So it becomes increasingly important that we are able to discuss valid interpretations of the world.

 

while it is entirely valid that an Apple may be both an Apple and a fruit, it’s not entirely valid that it may be a banana.

 

the validity in question may be observed by whether or not something may be acted out in the world.

 

so to classify an American citizen as non-American without going through the American principals of fair trial is invalid.  The validity of that claim is defined in the American constitution.

 

if someone is deplorable enough to have citizenship stripped by the courts, then there may be argument for non-American,   but FFS let’s be careful how far we take these classifications.

 

I think some of you have misunderstood me.  I said nothing about stripping citizenship or kicking anyone out.  I'm speaking of some people fundamentally acting against the nation's interests and foundations.  At this point, those Trump supporters willing and hoping to make Trump a literal dictator are fundamentally un-American in every way that matters.  It's depressing that we're now being told to walk on eggshells even for that kind of scum.  Oh no, let's not call them un-American because it might hurt someone's feelings and apparently cross a line too far.

Edited by jonoh81

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14 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

I think some of you have misunderstood me.  I said nothing about stripping citizenship or kicking anyone out.  I'm speaking of some people fundamentally acting against the nation's interests and foundations.  At this point, those Trump supporters willing and hoping to make Trump a literal dictator are fundamentally un-American in every way that matters.  It's depressing that we're now being told to walk on eggshells even for that kind of scum.  Oh no, let's not call them un-American because it might hurt someone's feelings and apparently cross a line too far.

 

This isn't an emotional topic, so no feelings being hurt.  

 

I'm mostly speaking to how your request is just as extreme as the post you are reacting to.  Why in the world should someone be thought of as un-American for a silly twitter post?  It's one thing to say the comment is un-American, and then a completely different thing to assume the person behind the comment is un-American.

 

So with the intention of encouraging more polite discourse. maybe we should take a breath before posting inflammatory comments reacting to twitter posts (or other UO member posts) as the extreme reaction is most likely the intended response.

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28 minutes ago, tklg said:

 

This isn't an emotional topic, so no feelings being hurt.  

 

I'm mostly speaking to how your request is just as extreme as the post you are reacting to.  Why in the world should someone be thought of as un-American for a silly twitter post?  It's one thing to say the comment is un-American, and then a completely different thing to assume the person behind the comment is un-American.

 

So with the intention of encouraging more polite discourse. maybe we should take a breath before posting inflammatory comments reacting to twitter posts (or other UO member posts) as the extreme reaction is most likely the intended response.

 

Wait, so calling someone on the internet un-American for wanting to be lead by a dictator is just as extreme as the act of supporting a dictator and abandoning the US Constitution and representative democracy?  Yeah, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard and just about the most laughable equivalency I've yet seen.  Especially after some were pontificating about how America is all about different beliefs and that everyone is free to see America differently.  Apparently not. 

 

It's not "silly".  Whether you believe it or not, there are a lot of Trump supporters who would absolutely support him staying in power for life.  That's not just something on Twitter, that is real and that is dangerous.  If Yabo is correct and Trump loses refuses to leave office, there will be a very real crisis on our hands that will have very serious consequences.  He will have the backing of millions and then what are we going to do then?  Be polite, just call it difference of opinion and go about our day blissfully ignorant?

 

 My comments weren't inflammatory, and it's more than a little concerning that they are being considered more offensive than calling for a dictator to lead America. 

 

 

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Donald Trump needs to start smoking weed immediately! A lot of weed!!</p>&mdash; Damon Zex (@damonzex) <a href="https://twitter.com/damonzex/status/957971139715850240?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 29, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

 

Hmmm, how do I embed tweets?

Edited by GCrites80s

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On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 6:36 PM, Cleburger said:

 

Yes.  Optics are everything...to calm the masses.  After all, we have a President who has declared that airplanes are too hard to fly!  

 

The facts will come out with the release of the flight data recorder, but for me as a casual observer, the eyewitness statements about the Ethiopian aircraft point to something other than a control system failure combined with inadequate pilot training and overcompensation, as in the Lion Air crash.   

 

One witness said the ill-fated Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 was already on fire - and swerving erratically - before it crashed, 60km from Addis Ababa.

"The plane was already on fire when it crashed to the ground. The crash caused a big explosion," said witness Tegegn Dechasa at the site.

 

https://www.news24.com/Africa/News/doomed-ethiopian-airlines-boeing-was-on-fire-before-crash-witness-20190311

 

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Capitalism!

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https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/435134-kushner-accused-of-using-whatsapp-personal-email-to-conduct-official

 

Quote

Kushner accused of using WhatsApp, personal email to conduct official business: report

 

Do conservatives still care about information security or no?

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