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Cleveland: Nautica Development

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38 minutes ago, X said:

 

I like it!  One other thought I had was that if the station were integrated with a new development either along the sides of the viaduct, or even enveloping it, that could maybe bring the cost to RTA down.  Of course, that block is a park, but the next block down is low density uses.

 

Putting a station on a curve creates gaps between the train and platform that could cause it to not be ADA compliant.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Yes to all of this - Bridgeworks, Nautica lots, both projects along the viaduct, redline station... etc. That neighborhood is so unique in character. The bridges - especially the Main Ave bridge - and Jacobs Pavilion are a big part of making that neighborhood what it is. Add in the mix of old and new, like how the blue Stonebridge building blends with some of the originals. Adding a new modern addition onto the old apartment building at the end of the viaduct would fit very well with the character that's developed. I absolutely loved the 5 years I lived down there, and hope to one day be back.

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Ahh, maybe the block south of that one then!

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18 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Putting a station on a curve creates gaps between the train and platform that could cause it to not be ADA compliant.

 

 

 

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On 5/13/2020 at 3:16 PM, TR said:

I think that it would be great if the Memorial Shoreway could be relocated to run along the railroad tracks in the Flats and Whiskey Island.  This would free up a lot of valuable land and open up the area.  Rather than a  huge  bridge hanging over the area there could be a tunnel under the Cuyahoga River much like the tunnel on US1 in Fort Lauderdale that goes under the New River.

The Main Ave bridge is near the end of its lifespan and will have to be replaced in the not too distant future.  Re-routing that section of the shoreway along the rail tracks and tunneling both shoreway and rail under the river would be a great idea, although I'm not sure of the feasibility.

Edited by skiwest
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If cooler heads were to prevail (not going to happen IMO) I would love to see the Shoreway west of the deadman's curve split turned into a boulevard. But building a tunnel is so expensive I can't see that happening in these challenging economic times either. Is that new route even practical? Although replacing the bridge won't be cheap. At any rate if the bridge was replaced with a tunnel I for one would miss it. One of the neat things about the Flats is that looming blue monster hanging over our heads. Removing it would almost feel like a decapitation. 

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4 minutes ago, cadmen said:

If cooler heads were to prevail (not going to happen IMO) I would love to see the Shoreway west of the deadman's curve split turned into a boulevard. But building a tunnel is so expensive I can't see that happening in these challenging economic times either. Is that new route even practical? Although replacing the bridge won't be cheap. At any rate if the bridge was replaced with a tunnel I for one would miss it. One of the neat things about the Flats is that looming blue monster hanging over our heads. Removing it would almost feel like a decapitation. 

 

I'd honestly rather they spend the money on shifting I90 by the old powerplant than to bury this portion. I'd imagine the state isn't too enthusiastic about the prospect of building another major span in Cle after just wrapping up the innerbelt (and 480 for that matter). But I digress, I've already contributed to a derailing of one forum post I'll quit while I'm behind lol

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The Main Avenue Bridge was built in 1939.  It is 8,000 feet long (1.5 miles) and 100 feet high.  The cost to replace and repair is huge.  Re-locating the Shoreway along the train tracks would save maintenance cost and open up the area.  The cost to build a tunnel under the Cuyahoga River is $20M to $80M per crossing depending on conditions.  Miami used the figure of $40M per crossing in there analysis of the Miami River.  Over $60M was spent on repairs on the bridge in 1991.   A tunnel under the Cuyahoga River is a much cleaner and efficient solution. 

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3 hours ago, urb-a-saurus said:

^Looks like NYC is ahead of the curve on this one

 

With this being an outdoor platform and RTA salting it to remove ice and snow, and considering how long it takes RTA to fix broken elevators/escalators, I don't want to give them more breakable things to fix.

 

Anyhoo....might be good to continue discussing this in the Cleveland transit future thread.

 

BTW, hearing some rumblings about Jacobs building a parking garage next to the viaduct, south of the Powerhouse and north of Elm. If Jacobs wants to use the parking deck during the day, perhaps the residents/guests of the 20-story tower could use it at night?

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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But wait, there's more!

 

Nautica-viaduct-area-plan.JPG

 

SATURDAY, MAY 16, 2020

Cleveland's exciting parking garage project. No, seriously

 

Parking garages aren't usually all that exciting. But one planned for the Flats' West Bank might be the most exciting parking garage in Cleveland in 15 years.

In 2005, the nine-level 515 Euclid garage was designed and built with the promise of a future high-rise atop it. That garage ended up attracting Stark Enterprises which built the 19-story, $95 million Beacon apartment tower. Beacon saw construction start in 2017; it opened last year.
 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/05/clevelands-exciting-parking-garage.html

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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On 5/13/2020 at 11:54 AM, KJP said:

Flats+West+Bank+development+sites-May202

 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 13, 2020

Developers, investors making big plays on Flats' West Bank

 

Despite the economic slowdown, several prominent local and national developers and investors are making big real estate plays on the Flats' West Bank, across the Cuyahoga River from downtown Cleveland. The end result could be a mix of buildings with mostly residential offerings and at least two of the developments possibly rising to 20 stories or higher.

As one real estate insider said, "That area might be the next hotspot after Hingetown." He's referring to the northeast corner of Ohio City, adjoining Flats' West Bank, where just about every block since 2000 has had a development project built, underway or planned. It's about time, as the Flats' West Bank sat out Cleveland's redevelopment boom of the 2010s.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/05/developers-investors-making-big-plays.html

 

Hey KJP -- in the marketing video you linked to in your article for the 1250 Riverbed site, the hotel is a brand by Dream Hotel Group. I think you've also reported in the past they were interested in a hotel in the Warehouse District. Can you confirm -- is Dream Hotel Group looking for two hotels in Cleveland, or is one at the expense of the other?

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Wow, awesome scoop as always, @KJP. If this all comes to pass with the speed it seems it may, we’ll have to rename the area Tall Hingetown. 

Edited by LlamaLawyer
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12 minutes ago, mas1092 said:

 

Hey KJP -- in the marketing video you linked to in your article for the 1250 Riverbed site, the hotel is a brand by Dream Hotel Group. I think you've also reported in the past they were interested in a hotel in the Warehouse District. Can you confirm -- is Dream Hotel Group looking for two hotels in Cleveland, or is one at the expense of the other?

 

You know... I remember seeing "Dream Hotel" in one of the marketing pieces for 1250 Riverbed but I couldn't remember which one. I looked through all of them -- or at least I thought I'd had! I see it's in the video. Thank you!!

 

If the Dream brand is interested in that site -- and yes, that's exactly the kind of historic renovation/expansion-type project they love -- then it would likely be the only location in Cleveland. Frankly, I'd be a little surprised if any hotel is included, but this development isn't for the Cleveland of today. It's for the Cleveland of two years from now and beyond. And the market analysis showed a gap in the local offerings that Dream could fill.

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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^That seems like a great solution if people are able to park their cars and can drive out going either up or down. The article made it sound like the connection would only be for pedestrians to the viaduct. 

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6 minutes ago, audidave said:

^That seems like a great solution if people are able to park their cars and can drive out going either up or down. The article made it sound like the connection would only be for pedestrians to the viaduct. 

 

My understand is that the connection between the parking deck and the viaduct would be only for pedestrians.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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I didn't think I'd ever see an above ground parking deck that I'd be happy to see built....

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A park on top of the garage would be a great destination all on its own. The viaduct already offers some of the best views in the city.

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The viaduct should be the iconic and active open space of that area.  Not sure why we need to have an alternative openspace to front on the other open space that we uses primarily as a parking lot.  Too much poorly planned open space equals empty space.

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1 hour ago, X said:

The viaduct should be the iconic and active open space of that area.  Not sure why we need to have an alternative openspace to front on the other open space that we uses primarily as a parking lot.  Too much poorly planned open space equals empty space.

 

Tough to play soccer or basketball or tennis on the viaduct.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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True, but if you use that roof for that, instead of a park, you're going to end up with a private, fenced in area, instead of "open space".  Can't have those soccer balls landing on cars below!

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37 minutes ago, X said:

True, but if you use that roof for that, instead of a park, you're going to end up with a private, fenced in area, instead of "open space".  Can't have those soccer balls landing on cars below!

 

Are there many similar spaces nearby other than Krenzler field and St Ignatius's fields? I think we all want Civic spaces that are not closed off to the public, one reason Church & State's public spaces are praised in contrast to CCF's fortress developments. I think execution will be key, but given that the flats is an entertainment destination, the parts that are redeveloped seem to cater to public uses.

 

If Stonebridge's parking could be shifted to the garage and some space could be opened up for a linear park on the Viaduct, I don't know that an open space on the rooftop would be at odds with the linear park. Other green space in the semi-immediate area like Settler's Landing and Wendy Park seem more appropriate for informal pickup games like ultimate Frisbee, kicking a soccer ball around, or throwing a football back and forth more than something requiring a clear, level playing area of large enough size.

 

I can see both sides to this, but at the very least having a connection from the dead-end on the viaduct seems exciting to me.

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There could always be netting or plexiglass around the outer edge of the green roof. That might also help diminish what I would expect to be some pretty strong winds up there in the Spring and possibly the Fall.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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5 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

I despise parking decks. But if it spawns more development down there and has other uses..

.ill allow it GIF

Thank YOU for allowing it!!

LOL

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3 hours ago, KJP said:

There could always be netting or plexiglass around the outer edge of the green roof. That might also help diminish what I would expect to be some pretty strong winds up there in the Spring and possibly the Fall.

I just saw a bunch of 9-10yr old kids that had been on bikes playing impromptu soccer on a qtr sized soccer field next to the hike and bike on Valleyview . Have never seen that little pitch used. There are nets set up for it.   So It doesn’t need to be regulation sized soccer field to get people to use it. 

Edited by audidave

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There is a chance I can't go. Can someone attend, take high-quality pictures and send them to me at: kjprendergast@cox.net ? Thanks!
Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Not at all surprising. I lived in the Stonebridge condo building a few years ago the last time a highrise was proposed for that site. It was exactly the same reaction.

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4 hours ago, KJP said:

There could always be netting or plexiglass around the outer edge of the green roof. That might also help diminish what I would expect to be some pretty strong winds up there in the Spring and possibly the Fall.

 

This reminded me of a photo I snapped from my hotel in Shibuya Tokyo a few years back....

IMG_4770.jpeg

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36 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

Not at all surprising. I lived in the Stonebridge condo building a few years ago the last time a highrise was proposed for that site. It was exactly the same reaction.

Any feel for what type of influence they have with the people that matter.

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3 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

Not at all surprising. I lived in the Stonebridge condo building a few years ago the last time a highrise was proposed for that site. It was exactly the same reaction.

 

What high-rise was proposed several years ago? Was that the 11-story building planning commission approved to bump up Daryl Kertesz's for-sale price of his property? Allegedly....


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Hopefully they can’t block it. Although a blocked view is a bummer, the risk of blocked views is part of life, especially in a city.  If they really wanted to preserve their views forever, they could buy all the nearby lots as part of the building, but they didn’t do that because that would have cost a lot of money and result in an insane association fee. 

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For all you Sketchup masters out there... what would be the impact of a ~8 story building at 25th and Detroit and these two 20 story towers?

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12 minutes ago, mas1092 said:

For all you Sketchup masters out there... what would be the impact of a ~8 story building at 25th and Detroit and these two 20 story towers?

 

Hello @Geowizical! Plus a couple of 7-story buildings on the Jacobs riverfront with a 20-story building behind it, as shown in his renderings?

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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I'm on it! 😆

I was actually planning on sketching out the entire Nautica/West Bank area anyways

... and maybe Ohio City as well 😉

Edited by Geowizical
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In a couple of years, between this area, SW, CityClub and Nucelus - cranes could be all over the Cleveland skyline . 

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Alrighty... this was quite an interesting render! 😆

Because of the weird topology of the Flats compared to the rest of the city, things like the viaduct may seem a bit off height-wise, but I did my best with what I could - hopefully all of the heights are mostly accurate. I also put in a placeholder thing for Brickworks even though I'm pretty sure we don't know what it looks like just yet...

 

Nonetheless, I think that the development as described will do much to extend the skyline west across the river, and give a more lively environment to the west bank.

As you can see from my renderings, literally half of the bank between Route 2 and Detroit Ave is orange, and that is somewhat mind-boggling to see!

I am especially fond of the plans for 1250 Riverbed building on top of the existing building. Hopefully we can get these 20-ish-story towers in there because they really add some much needed height in interesting ways.

 

As always, white is existing, orange is planned/under construction, green is parks, gray is RTA, and red are parking lots.

If I got anything completely wrong or there are any questions just let me know!

 

1.thumb.PNG.3c41043cd06f40b2ec580d6ae4d36316.PNG2.thumb.PNG.f7abae59f8e58047d512238760711584.PNG3.thumb.PNG.360e28d9a597861c5c514189d814f334.PNG4.thumb.PNG.4edeabd38a09577c6c4855f834b3cbc7.PNG5.thumb.PNG.feddcb14e6f806a280697454d5e94f27.PNG

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Those towers really expand the skyline to the west. Especially the tower at 2208 Superior Viaduct, since it's proposed to be taller and at a higher elevation than 1250 Riverbed.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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14 hours ago, KJP said:

 

What high-rise was proposed several years ago? Was that the 11-story building planning commission approved to bump up Daryl Kertesz's for-sale price of his property? Allegedly....

 

I believe so - it was approximately 2.5-3 years ago, right before I moved, and I remember it being just about equal in height to Stonebridge. @Htsguy I don't think they would be any more influential that a block club. Last I knew they weren't anything as formal as that, but they did work with Kerry McCormack on a number of issues like parking and the car break ins. I would be more afraid we get someone like that dude in Little Italy that continually sued the proposed development across from Coltman until it died.

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If this can happen over a 7 year stretch, I promise to go 14 years without a “poorly used/underused” Cleveland waterfront complaint!

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37 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

 

I believe so - it was approximately 2.5-3 years ago, right before I moved, and I remember it being just about equal in height to Stonebridge. @Htsguy I don't think they would be any more influential that a block club. Last I knew they weren't anything as formal as that, but they did work with Kerry McCormack on a number of issues like parking and the car break ins. I would be more afraid we get someone like that dude in Little Italy that continually sued the proposed development across from Coltman until it died.

 

If that's what they fought, then they didn't succeed since Planning Commission approved that conceptual design.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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On 5/16/2020 at 6:26 PM, KJP said:
There is a chance I can't go. Can someone attend, take high-quality pictures and send them to me at: kjprendergast@cox.net ? Thanks!

 

Well, either there was no meeting actually planned or it got rained out. That's ok, Luca opened tonight with its covered, heated patio so I went back to Lakewood, got my family, returned and enjoyed my first, sit-down meal (yes, it was delicious) at a restaurant in two months and three days. So it wasn't a total washout. 

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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@KJP it was cancelled due to the rain. Got two emails about the cancellation and it might be scheduled for next Monday (Memorial Day)?

Edited by andrew0816

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2 minutes ago, andrew0816 said:

@KJP it was cancelled due to the rain. Got two emails about the cancellation and it might be scheduled for next Monday (Memorial Day)?

 

I was told it was rescheduled for 6:30 pm Tuesday.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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43 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I was told it was rescheduled for 6:30 pm Tuesday.

 

Guess we'll see, but nothing has been sent out on the block club email chain yet with a confirmed date/time

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On 5/17/2020 at 1:43 PM, Geowizical said:

Alrighty... this was quite an interesting render! 😆

Because of the weird topology of the Flats compared to the rest of the city, things like the viaduct may seem a bit off height-wise, but I did my best with what I could - hopefully all of the heights are mostly accurate. I also put in a placeholder thing for Brickworks even though I'm pretty sure we don't know what it looks like just yet...

 

Nonetheless, I think that the development as described will do much to extend the skyline west across the river, and give a more lively environment to the west bank.

As you can see from my renderings, literally half of the bank between Route 2 and Detroit Ave is orange, and that is somewhat mind-boggling to see!

I am especially fond of the plans for 1250 Riverbed building on top of the existing building. Hopefully we can get these 20-ish-story towers in there because they really add some much needed height in interesting ways.

 

As always, white is existing, orange is planned/under construction, green is parks, gray is RTA, and red are parking lots.

If I got anything completely wrong or there are any questions just let me know!

 

You know, we missed you!

 

Glad you're back!

Edited by X
Please don't quote large numbers of pictures.
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1250+Riverbed+St-Flats-rendering-DLRGrou

 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 20, 2020

Wolstein goes west as backer of Flats West Bank tower

 

An important local real estate developer has emerged to lead a proposed apartment and hotel tower on the Flats' West Bank, giving the project further legitimacy. That backer is the man who brought the Flats' East Bank back from the ruins of being Cleveland's Party Central in the late-20th century to become a bright, attractive mixed-use development.

Scott Wolstein, CEO of the Wolstein Group, has reportedly stepped forward to help develop a proposed 20-story tower above two historic buildings at 1250 Riverbed St., according to a high-level real estate source. That's a significant turn of events considering the last 20-30 years of Flats development.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/05/wolstein-goes-west-as-backer-of-flats.html

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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