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Cleveland: Nautica Development

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I think they look like Miami, and not in a good way- a bunch of disjointed glass condos with little activity, connection or placemaking at the ground level.

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Also, demolishing the Harbor Inn and building across the street would be obnoxious.  I suppose these designs are better than the pure garbage shown in the original massings, but I'm still firmly rooting against this project. 

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2 hours ago, Mendo said:

Well, the developer would be Jeff Jacobs that owns the surface lots and Nautica complex. It came out in 2016 they were working on the master plan. The article from Crains (2016) has rough massings from GPD Group. The AoDK designs are certainly better, so I was hoping those were the latest plans.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160509/NEWS/160509849/nautica-plan-calls-for-residential-complexes

 

edit: I just realized the AoDK renderings actually show two different plans. One has a single rise along the river. The other has two shorter buildings with a waterway between them. I like the two shorter buildings -- makes the area denser.

 

 

Ah the same Jeff Jacobs of the group that used to own my Warehouse District apartment building a few years ago... Based on how they maintained our complex, they don't have the money to do one of the buildings in those renderings let alone all of them.

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The west bank of the Flats definitely could use some investment, but I don't think that the fact that it is currently parking lots should negate the fact that we want to see great things for what is a unique location with a deep history.  We can do something better than what is shown.

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3 hours ago, Mendo said:

edit: I just realized the AoDK renderings actually show two different plans. One has a single rise along the river. The other has two shorter buildings with a waterway between them. I like the two shorter buildings -- makes the area denser.

 

I count 3 different configurations presented.

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They posted a video about 5 months ago on Vimeo of a completely different design and site plan. It's not clear any of these were actually commissioned by Jacobs.

 

 

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^ I see a boardwalk but no retail to entice people to go out of their way to use it other than residents to walk their dogs. I'm really surprised this proposed development Isn't getting any press other than from Crain's. You would think this would be big news like the east bank project got and other comparable size projects got or are getting.

Edited by Mildtraumatic

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That video really shows how awful this proposal is- all the ground floors, all of them, are parking garage.  No retail.  The buildings also appear to be oriented around this weird fake lake they want to make for some reason, with their best frontages and indoor/outdoor spaces aimed in that direction.  There wasn't any real thought given to orienting these buildings to the river, the real "water feature" that the Flats should be built around.

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That design truly snaches defeat from the jaws of victory...

 

What a squandered urban planning opportunity it would be with its waterfront location / downtown views. 

Edited by MuRrAy HiLL
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All the site plans we've seen are a complete mess, even the original from GPD. I don't understand why none of them retain the original street grid. Like the area needs pointless grass plazas between each building.

 

I did like aesthetics of the AoDK buildings. I agree its a bit of Miami but it could be interesting if not cheaply done.

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5 hours ago, mas1092 said:

I'm not sure the fake lake is necessary, as there is a river and real lake a hop, skip, and jump away...

 

If they added boat docks with retail/restaurant frontage, I'd be cool with it.  

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I was just in Miami on Wednesday and Thursday. It was stunning to look at from a mile away. It was astonishingly dull at street level. My wife, who isn't trained in urban planning, said "Why are there no shops or restaurants in these buildings? Where are all the people?" I asked her "How many of these buildings had public doorways in them? How many would you have a reason to enter if you didn't work or live in them?" Very few. 


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Parking pedestals can work alright if there is something else on the ground floor and some of the parking is wrapped with other uses, but they don't do it that way in Florida.  Nor apparently in the FEB.

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The fake lake is hilarious - instead of working with the real dynamic  vistas that exist - they’ve oriented the development largely inward to its own suburban style pond. I’d love to see that much development but - I think Murray Hill expressed it perfectly  - defeat snatched from the jaws of victory. 

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1 hour ago, w28th said:

As someone else mentioned, this arm of Jacobs doesn’t have the juice to pull any of this off.

I thought this would be obvious to most people on the board.  I am really surprised by how many people are getting their panties in a bunch over something that didn't have a chance in hell of happening when it was first proposed way back when.  This whole development has always been pie in the sky Cleveland.  Does Jeff Jacobs even still live in Cleveland most of the time?We really must be desperate for stuff to talk about. 

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Sure we're desperate. We're just about to come out of the biggest black holes of news/information of the year. When I worked at the newspaper, we had to save up news articles as early as November so that we'd have something to fill the newspapers with during the last week or two of December and the first week of January. That's when we'd also run our "Best of Police Blotter" and "News Highlights of 2018" type articles or share news among the multiple suburban papers to fill in the spaces between the ads. We would run most of our community leader/personality profiles at that time, too. And that was at a weekly newspaper. I pity those who work at daily newspapers.

 

So when someone finds some pretty new renderings during this black hole of information, of course it's going to be a big deal.

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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5 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I thought this would be obvious to most people on the board.  I am really surprised by how many people are getting their panties in a bunch over something that didn't have a chance in hell of happening when it was first proposed way back when.  This whole development has always been pie in the sky Cleveland.  Does Jeff Jacobs even still live in Cleveland most of the time?We really must be desperate for stuff to talk about. 

 

Nobody thinks this is happening any time soon, or ever. It's still interesting to talk about. What's the alternative?

 

Edited by Mendo

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On 1/4/2019 at 3:50 PM, Mendo said:

Well, the developer would be Jeff Jacobs that owns the surface lots and Nautica complex. It came out in 2016 they were working on the master plan. The article from Crains (2016) has rough massings from GPD Group. The AoDK designs are certainly better, so I was hoping those were the latest plans. 

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160509/NEWS/160509849/nautica-plan-calls-for-residential-complexes

 

edit: I just realized the AoDK renderings actually show two different plans. One has a single rise along the river. The other has two shorter buildings with a waterway between them. I like the two shorter buildings -- makes the area denser. 

 

I think it's actually three plans.  A high rise that is sided by a marina, a wider mid-rise sided by a marina, and to slimmer mid-rises sperated by a marina.  Either way these would be a huge upgrade over that current ugly parking lot.

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I know this wouldn't be the moneymaker of a full blown development - but I think pairing at least a portion of that parking lot with the aquarium and towpath would be great. A carve-out could be made with the river and an aquatic center could be made, dedicated to the wildlife past and present that calls the Cuyahoga home - this would be interactive and hopefully under the Metroparks umbrella. This 501c3(presumably) could spearhead fundraising efforts for cleaning and dredging the river and fighting off invasive species. It would be a great incentive to keep the water taxi alive and could be a great destination for tour groups, field trips, and family trips downtown in the summer. 

 

This would be a limited footprint, and the Nautica Development could still happen, just on a slightly scaled back version - which would probably be better anyways. 

Edited by YABO713
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The walkway down from the old bridge is an interesting addition. I like that the new moat configuration around the large building doesn't go all the way around but If you can't park boats there, it really isn't necessary even with fountains and bridges. I also like that there's some grass in there but that park like area in the middle is just wasted space especially with the new Irish bend park that's going in just walking distance away on the new path. I don't know how much that soccer field will be used either. I always like to see a play ground for kids to foster that "families can live here too" vibe but that may just be the dad in me. If they tighten it up and put some retail on the ground floor, I'd be all for the new look.

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Nautica+Waterfront+District-1.jpg

 

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 12, 2019

Seeds & Sprouts II - Early intel on real estate projects


This is the second edition of Seeds & Sprouts - Early intelligence on Cleveland-area real estate projects. Because these projects are very early in their process of development or just a long-range plan, a lot can and probably will change their final shape, use and outcome.

 

Flats West Bank: Nautica Waterfront District seeks Joint Venture

 

On May 13, Nautica Entertainment LLC recorded with Cuyahoga County the issuance of $35 million in five-year notes from a line of credit it collateralized through Wilmington Trust, National Association. The debt was mortgaged against all of Nautica Entertainment's properties on the Flats West Bank. A portion of the financing could reportedly help build the first phase of an ambitious, high-end community on the West Bank. Most of the rest will help capitalize the firm's other interests.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/06/seeds-sprouts-ii-early-intel-on-real.html

Edited by KJP
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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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How far below do you have to dig to reach solid bedrock in the flats? It's a valley. I've always dreamed of the Chicago river when rebuilding the flats which would make the west bank become a part of real downtown.. I like this plan and we have a lot of shoring up to do with what is considered downtown at present. Just being fanciful in my thinking but like what X said above this has a lot of potential in more ways than one.

 

Edit never see that in our lifetime at that scale but smaller perhaps. I like square block grids for streets not what we see at the new east bank flats or this rendering. Looks suburban office park.

Edited by Mildtraumatic

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I don't know if Jacobs has anything real cooking on the West Bank or not (I hope note, because I don't like their vision), but I'm fairly certain the docs recorded in May and $35M in new notes are a red herring.  It's secured corporate debt for the parent company, Jacobs Entertainment, Inc., and looks like that $35M is ticketed to payoff other debt, to buy truck stops in Louisiana, and for casino business in Reno and Black Hawk, CO. Here's a summary from Moody's: https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-rates-Jacobs-2nd-Lien-notes-tack-on-B2-affirms--PR_394535

 

And Wilmington Trust isn't a lender here, just the collateral agent for the note holders. 

 

 

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I had a feeling it was Nautica when KJP hinted about something being planned in the flats.

For whatever reason I was hoping it would be Scranton Peninsula or Stones Levee or Moses

Cleveland Tower. This project is a Pipedream. It was announced in 2016 that construction

if I recall correctly would start in 2023 plus Jeff Jacobs is involved.

This gets us just as excited as we are with the 40 years of Lakefront Development Projects

announced. You could also tell by the Non-posting activity on this thread.

The Geis Condo Tower got 3 pages of posts on a brand new thread in 1 day. Now that

is excitement.

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Thanks. Correction made. Yes, I'm told Nautica is trying to secure a JV.


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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14 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

I don't know if Jacobs has anything real cooking on the West Bank or not (I hope note, because I don't like their vision), but I'm fairly certain the docs recorded in May and $35M in new notes are a red herring.  It's secured corporate debt for the parent company, Jacobs Entertainment, Inc., and looks like that $35M is ticketed to payoff other debt, to buy truck stops in Louisiana, and for casino business in Reno and Black Hawk, CO. Here's a summary from Moody's: https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-rates-Jacobs-2nd-Lien-notes-tack-on-B2-affirms--PR_394535

 

And Wilmington Trust isn't a lender here, just the collateral agent for the note holders. 

 

 

 

Thanks! Corrections made. Yes, I'm told Nautica is pursuing a JV.

 

EDIT: Although I think @simplythis is correct -- little is going to happen with Flats West Bank unless and until Jeff Jacobs sells his interests there. That's probably the best "JV deal" he is going to get.

Edited by KJP

"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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I really like the green landscaping and extension of the Superior Viaduct envisioned by the Jacob's plan that appears to be modelled after the NY skywalk. No more dead end and it utilizes that space much better.  These are our "Roman ruins" if you will that adds an intriguing layer of historical depth to ou rcity. The old stone work should be preserved and highlighted where they are found. The lake link trail has some as well as the parking lot between the warehous district and the stadium. 

 

https://aodkinc.com/portfolio/waterfront-development/

 

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