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Cincinnati: Downtown: Eighth & Main Redevelopment

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It may work to the Dennison's favor. If the Historic Conservation Board wants to be known as moderate or pragmatic, they could approve Donato's building demo and protect the Dennison. 


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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Greiwe is very public and open about what he wants for the city. Demolition without development is not it. The man is a developer. He wants to create things. Regardless of your opinion of those specific things he doesn't just want to go in and tear things down. It is always for a reason and with the intention of creating something larger in its place. And so far I don't think he has ever torn something down and not built on the lot in any of his projects.

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It may work to the Dennison's favor. If the Historic Conservation Board wants to be known as moderate or pragmatic, they could approve Donato's building demo and protect the Dennison. 

 

I think the Eighth and Main decision was a good sign. "You can demolish this historic building that would be cost prohibitive to rehab, as long as you actually move forward with your plan to build this new condo tower there." Meanwhile, the Dennison owners have no public plan for what they want to do with that site. The HCB can say, "show us the plan or else you're not tearing down the Dennison."

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It may work to the Dennison's favor. If the Historic Conservation Board wants to be known as moderate or pragmatic, they could approve Donato's building demo and protect the Dennison. 

 

I think the Eighth and Main decision was a good sign. "You can demolish this historic building that would be cost prohibitive to rehab, as long as you actually move forward with your plan to build this new condo tower there." Meanwhile, the Dennison owners have no public plan for what they want to do with that site. The HCB can say, "show us the plan or else you're not tearing down the Dennison."

 

Then they can pull down the Dennison and not build what they promised.  Just like Ron Brown did to St Martins back on 2008. He tore down that beautiful church but promised to replace it with condominiums. We are still staring at the scar in the landscape where the building was ripped out.

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Has the historic building at that corner been used on the upper floors for decades? Someone floated an image of the building in the 1960's yesterday (I think on Facebook), and it showed the upper floors boarded over then.

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From everything I'm gathering the problems presented by Greiwe and John Schneider have been a big part of its vacancy for decades. It just isn't setup for modern office or residential standards and retrofitting wouldn't create a product anyone would want to use.

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Does anyone have any pictures of the interior? I know I'd be interested in taking some if not - if for no other reason than to just have some record of it before its gone. Sherman Cahal[/member] would probably be interested, too. If renovation is really unfeasible, the pictures would help the cause.

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Columns are 9' 6" on center. Can't remember the exact ceilings heights, but the final result was that for office use, allowing for MEP, would achieve finished ceiling heights on four of the six floors of 6'8" to 8'5"

 

You really need 9' ceilings for offices these days.

 

I think apartments could work around some of these constraints, making the beams and columns part of the design. Griewe's team did this. Can't remember his exact numbers from Monday's presentation, but I remember thinking that, gee, even if you got the building for free, you would still lose money. That shouldn't surprise anyone. We see all the great work with these old buildings happening all over OTR, but we forget how subsidized a lot of those projects are.

 

 

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9'-6" o.c. is not enough for residential. My 490 square foot studio would have a column line running right down the center of it if there were columns at 9'-6" o.c. That would make laying out a comfortable living/dining area very difficult. Bathroom, Kitchen, and bedroom (if you got creative) could work, but your main living/dining areas would have a lot of trouble.

 

And a finished head height ever being below 7'-6" is really unacceptable. 6'-8" would be met with laughs from potential tenants shortly before they slam the door on their way out.

 

I'm definitely even more on board with demolition now. That just isn't the type of building that suits itself to being retrofitted for another use.

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Not to mention the building is not seismically up to par and would be a fire hazard without upgrades that are not economically feasible.

 

Edit: Old Photos of Cincinnati on FB flared up with debate on this and it devolved into the preservation version of the communist domino theory.

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Precisely why I've left every single Cincinnati facebook group. I loved seeing all the old photos but the old mentalities that persisted in that group (and basically all others)? Not so much. I'm so much less stressed as a result.

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$36 million condo tower approved for downtown Cincinnati

 

8th-and-maingreiweterrex*750xx3264-1833-0-463.jpg

 

The Historic Conservation Board unanimously approved a certificate of appropriateness for a 13-story mixed-use condo building with first-floor commercial space, internal parking spaces on the first through third floors and 30 condos on floors four through 13. Developers Terrex Development & Construction LLC and Greiwe Development Group plan to build the condo tower at the southwest corner of Eighth and Main streets. The estimated total cost for the project is $36 million.

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I wish this development could be a little taller too, but honestly at this site, 13 stories is probably about appropriate. We need about 10 more of these guys scattered around downtown.

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Well, hopefully they'll make a big profit on this one and roll that into building the second tower at the northwest corner of the intersection, replacing the surface lot that's there now. I would much rather have a bunch of projects at this scale rather than filling downtown with a bunch of Eighth & Sycamore / Fourth & Race type projects.

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I have a feeling it will do well.  All about contacts and Greiwe has a lot of success it seems.  Though it did say they have to pre-sell about 20-30% before they get financing, which I am sure they can do quite easily once they start marketing.

 

The units in Mariemont sold quick I was told, and I drive by the units he developed in Hyde Park and it shows 17 sold on the sign.  I am not certain how many units are in there.

 

I am guessing they will be successful with pre-sales on this, move forward, and once they hit enough sales on this go forward with the second phase development.

 

I will say, I would like to see the second tower be a different color of sort to break things up a bit, but that's just my opinion.

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Enquirer article on the HCB approval. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2016/08/09/plan-downtown-new-build-condos-okd/88447598/

 

They also note that the price per square foot will be roughly $500, with condos ranging from $600k-$1.2M... but that the developer will still seek a city subsidy such as a property tax abatement or grant. At what price per square foot are these profitable on their own? $500/sqft is highest downtown/otr has seen proposed (that I can recall).

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I read it as possibly around $900k profit for the developer.  Considering it's probabably a large team, that most likely isn't enough for the investors to spend their money on if the condos don't sell.

 

I don't know what the total square footage is, but if it's a $37 million dollar project, 900k makes it 37,900,000 selling point/ $500 = 75,800 ft^2.  If you want to double that 900 kg, you would have to go to $38,800,000 / 75,800 ft^2 = $512/ft^2

 

They may deem that price too high, so they will ask for a city subsidy to help soften the blow.  This will then give them a gauge on the market in that range.

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Doesn't the city currently grant tax abatements to every new development in the city? If that's the case, I don't see why they wouldn't apply for it for this project. Thanks to the city's current asinine policy of reducing the property tax rate lower and lower every year, they can give as many tax abatements as they want and it won't result in any less tax revenue for the city.

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HCB Packet 3/13/17 has an update to this project.

 

The original developer, Greiwe Development, could not make the project work (can only assume a lack of buyers). And North American Properties has inherited the rights to develop the property into ~120 micro apartments and to remove the parking aspect of the project.

 

It looks like it is recommended for approval. It is right on the streetcar line which i believe lowers the parking requirement, and 3CDC just opened that large garage at 8th/Sycamore (which North American Properties is developing the residential on top of that).

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HCB Packet 3/13/17 has an update to this project.

 

The original developer, Greiwe Development, could not make the project work (can only assume a lack of buyers). And North American Properties has inherited the rights to develop the property into ~120 micro apartments and to remove the parking aspect of the project.

 

It looks like it is recommended for approval. It is right on the streetcar line which i believe lowers the parking requirement, and 3CDC just opened that large garage at 8th/Sycamore (which North American Properties is developing the residential on top of that).

 

Awesome. A huge "win" if they can build that many units without parking. Something I would like to see replicated across the CBD.


www.cincinnatiideas.com

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That's weird. Greiwe is a big downtown booster and streetcar supporter so I don't know why he couldn't make this one work. This seems like a weird part of Cincinnati's real estate market that I don't quite understand...people don't want to put a down payment for a "theoretical" condo tower that doesn't exist yet, and developers don't want to build a building for which they don't have guaranteed occupants. But if he just took a risk and built it...people would step up and buy the units once they could see them.

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That's weird. Greiwe is a big downtown booster and streetcar supporter so I don't know why he couldn't make this one work. This seems like a weird part of Cincinnati's real estate market that I don't quite understand...people don't want to put a down payment for a "theoretical" condo tower that doesn't exist yet, and developers don't want to build a building for which they don't have guaranteed occupants. But if he just took a risk and built it...people would step up and buy the units once they could see them.

 

maybe... I remember there was a condo project built on spec. in Mt. Adams with amazing views of downtown that sat vacant for years these were high end units similar to the above project.

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To be fair that building (The Palisades) was built RIGHT as the market crashed and many of the units were unfinished when being listed. Not exactly a recipe for success.

 

Overall I'm actually way more excited about the prospect of 127 apartments ranging from micros to efficient 2 bedrooms instead of the 30 or so luxury apartments Greiwe was planning here. That's way better density and will likely mean higher profit margins per square foot. Luxury is great in cities that can command obnoxious price/square foot, but Cincy isn't there. Regular units are generally more profitable en masse like this (at least from what I've heard from developers).

 

I'm sort of disappointed they kept the curb cut to achieve a tiny ass indoor parking lot. C'mon, go all the way! Use that space for retail or something. Do 5 spots really make a stitch of difference  to the parking needs of Downtown?

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When this project was initially announced, I instantly thought about the Pallisades project in Mt. Adams.  I'm sure all the banks did too.  Irregardless of who is president, the economy is overdue for a downturn and a massive high-end condo building is a huge risk.

 

I agree, the micro-apartments will do so much more for downtown.  Pack the CBD with YPs now and let the rich people move in later. 

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^ Looks pretty much the same to me. It's on page 59 of the packet.

 

My question is, what happens to the second tower across the street in the vacant lot next to the Deskey building?

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That's weird. Greiwe is a big downtown booster and streetcar supporter so I don't know why he couldn't make this one work. This seems like a weird part of Cincinnati's real estate market that I don't quite understand...people don't want to put a down payment for a "theoretical" condo tower that doesn't exist yet, and developers don't want to build a building for which they don't have guaranteed occupants. But if he just took a risk and built it...people would step up and buy the units once they could see them.

 

That's the inherent quandary developers face in many cities... build it as condos and get your money "up front" (hopefully) or build apartments, get it filled then sell the building or even #3 keep the building and be the landlord and receive money in perpetuity.

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^When you got a bunch of partners, which I am not certain if Greiwe does or not, when they see the sales aren't pumping in right away, they probably get nervous and pull out of the partnership on that particular project right away.

 

Seemed pretty quick for them to pull out but that might have been the case here.

 

Also, with apartments, they probably didn't want to sit on the cash that long to re-coup the costs and then up to a point where they can sell it for a hefty margin, basically exactly what you said but spread to 10 different people with 10 different personalities and 10 different amounts of wealth.

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Apartments might replace proposed downtown Cincinnati condo tower

 

Apartments might replace a planned $36 million condominium project in downtown Cincinnati.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/03/13/exclusive-apartments-might-replace-proposed.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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