Cleveland: Downtown: Justice Center Complex Replacement

[Htsguy]

3 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I agree that it could be built where the jail/PD are currently. Though no need to tear town the tower OR anymore of the Warehouse District!

Do you have any ideas what the current courthouse tower could become.  In my mind it would be a pretty difficult and expensive (especially given its mechanical problems) to re-purpose.

[freefourur]

Why not build the JC on the PIT parking lot?  It's close to the Old Courthouse and not far from the law firms. 

[marty15]

16 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Do you have any ideas what the current courthouse tower could become.  In my mind it would be a pretty difficult and expensive (especially given its mechanical problems) to re-purpose.

It’d make a wonderful residential conversion. The best views of the lake/river/west side. Also has underground parking for the residents.

 

The county will have to do asbestos abatement one way or another, which essentially leaves you with a clean building. Remember The 9 that everyone wanted to tear down? I think we’re all pretty thrilled how that turned out. Or even the conversion of 1717 East 9th. Same situation.

 

We destroyed half the Warehouse District to provide parking for the current justice center. We dont need to do anymore

 

I’d be fine if they tore down the MedMart building and put the tower there. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by marty15

[LlamaLawyer]

If they choose to redo the Justice Center, there's a lot they can do to also make it a beautiful building. Brutalist renovations can turn out great! E.g. 

 

this... 

 

into this

 

[marty15]

I honestly think it’s a handsome building as is. The surrounding structures are an ugly mess though. 

[Mov2Ohio]

16 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I honestly think it’s a handsome building as is. The surrounding structures are an ugly mess though. 

Yea, I don't think its ugly either, the beige facade wears on me a bit. I think it would look good black, but painting that facade them becomes a maintenance issue.

[LlamaLawyer]

14 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

Yea, I don't think its ugly either, the beige facade wears on me a bit. I think it would look good black, but painting that facade them becomes a maintenance issue.

 

I think it's the ugliest building downtown. But even if the facade won't be redone, I'd much rather it be renovated than torn down. 

[Frmr CLEder]

5 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

If they choose to redo the Justice Center, there's a lot they can do to also make it a beautiful building. Brutalist renovations can turn out great! E.g. 

 

this... 

 

into this

 

I thought this brutalist monstrosity at one of the Lincoln Tunnel approaches in Manhattan was taken out to make room for Hudson Yards. They did a nice conversion here. Besides the Justice Center, CCC has another one of Cleveland's brutalist structures.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[KJP]

To address some of the questions about financing a new Justice Center courthouse tower, there are two sources that the county might tap. The first would allow the project to at least get off the ground -- probably starting with the jail facility which is a much more pressing concern.About $8.8 million per year in Cuyahoga County revenues will no longer service Gateway bonds after 2022. That would be sufficient to service a $200 million, 30-year bond issue for a jail facility. I suspect the county might also be able to find some additional funds for it, or build it in phases.

 

Then, the existing convention center bonds mature in 2027. They are entirely supported by about $50-55 million per year from a 0.25-percent sales tax hike passed by the Cuyahoga County Council. That much revenue could service a 30-year, $1.2 billion bond issue. It would have to be renewed by the council and probably will be. My guess is that it will be tapped to finance construction of a new Justice Center courthouse tower downtown with an arraignment/trial jail. The two sources of revenues I listed would be more than sufficient to pay for these facilities.

[Frmr CLEder]

Are they still pressing for PS-Weston?

[YABO713]

On 10/15/2019 at 11:23 AM, Mov2Ohio said:

Yea, I don't think its ugly either, the beige facade wears on me a bit. I think it would look good black, but painting that facade them becomes a maintenance issue.

 

You sound like a college kid giving yourself a pep talk after his 8th alcoholic beverage... The building is hideous... and, unlike some potential mate at the bar, it's even uglier on the inside. 

[Frmr CLEder]

I'm not an architect nor in the construction business, but I would think that with the overabundance of concrete, most brutalist structures would be a challenge to retrofit or renovate. 

[LlamaLawyer]

I can see from Wikipedia that the total Justice Complex square footage is about 2.3 million. Does anyone know how much of that is the jail and how much is the courts tower, police hq, etc.? I'm trying to picture what a new court tower on Public Square would be like. Without looking at exact numbers, I would assume the Jacobs lot is a significantly smaller plate size than the current courts tower.

 

I've got to say that (from a purely skyline perspective), a SHW decision to build near Breen could be a long-term blessing. I really think Cleveland real estate has hit the critical mass point that the major parking lots will be gone. It may not be in five years, but I would bet they will all have something on them in fifteen. Assuming that to be the case, how great would our city look with major development and a nice tower along the river, something (anything) on the warehouse lots, and a nice 900'-1100' iconic court tower (which SHW apparently wouldn't give us) on public square. 

 

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but why not after the past few years we have had!

 

From a non-skyline perspective, I think PS is a moderately silly place for the court tower, but let's look at the hypothetical bright side.

 

 

[Htsguy]

40 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I'm not an architect nor in the construction business, but I would think that with the overabundance of concrete, most brutalist structures would be a challenge to retrofit or renovate. 

I am wondering more about the huge floor plates, at least for a residential conversion.  Seems like there might be a lot of unappealing and perhaps wasted space in the center of each floor.

[bjk]

37 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I am wondering more about the huge floor plates, at least for a residential conversion.  Seems like there might be a lot of unappealing and perhaps wasted space in the center of each floor.

 

I have no idea what would be load-bearing or not, but the court floors have separate elevators, hallways, etc, so that jurors can go back and forth without mixing with the public.

[marty15]

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I'm not an architect nor in the construction business, but I would think that with the overabundance of concrete, most brutalist structures would be a challenge to retrofit or renovate. 

The courthouse tower is clad in Spanish granite. Talk of tearing it down is as obscene as the attempt to tear down the Ameritrust tower (The 9). 

Edited October 29, 2019 by marty15

[Sapper Daddy]

1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I can see from Wikipedia that the total Justice Complex square footage is about 2.3 million. Does anyone know how much of that is the jail and how much is the courts tower, police hq, etc.? I'm trying to picture what a new court tower on Public Square would be like. Without looking at exact numbers, I would assume the Jacobs lot is a significantly smaller plate size than the current courts tower.

 

I've got to say that (from a purely skyline perspective), a SHW decision to build near Breen could be a long-term blessing. I really think Cleveland real estate has hit the critical mass point that the major parking lots will be gone. It may not be in five years, but I would bet they will all have something on them in fifteen. Assuming that to be the case, how great would our city look with major development and a nice tower along the river, something (anything) on the warehouse lots, and a nice 900'-1100' iconic court tower (which SHW apparently wouldn't give us) on public square. 

 

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but why not after the past few years we have had!

 

From a non-skyline perspective, I think PS is a moderately silly place for the court tower, but let's look at the hypothetical bright side.

 

 

I agree that Downtown Cleveland will look far different in 15 years than today, however, a courts tower in the 900’ - 1,100’ range isn’t going to happen.  If all the local municipal jails consolidate into one building downtown, my guess is the tower could approach 500’.  
 

I’m by no means an expert here, but 900 feet is just not realistic.

[Sapper Daddy]

To caveat, although unrelated to the Justice Center, if City Block is the success I anticipate it will be, 900’ towers are a real possibility over the coming decades.

[Frmr CLEder]

1 hour ago, LlamaLawyer said:

From a non-skyline perspective, I think PS is a moderately silly place for the court tower, but let's look at the hypothetical bright side

 

I'm in complete agreement.  I would hope and I think it would make more sense to target the Weston lots vs. PS for a courthouse. 

[Htsguy]

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 

I'm in complete agreement.  I would hope and I think it would make more sense to target the Weston lots vs. PS for a courthouse. 

My biggest fear with a courthouse complex on the Jacobs lot is that parking will go in an awful stand alone parking garage in the center of the Weston lot surrounded by some unkept landscaping with a miserable bridge over West 3rd.

[Frmr CLEder]

As much as I have despised the disgraceful Jacobs/Weston wasteland for the last 30 years, I still hope that if SW does not go with Jacobs/Weston, that Cuyahoga County will have the infinite wisdom to settle on Weston for a courthouse and reserve PS for an iconic 800 -1000 ft tower.

[surfohio]

4 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

My biggest fear with a courthouse complex on the Jacobs lot is that parking will go in an awful stand alone parking garage in the center of the Weston lot surrounded by some unkept landscaping with a miserable bridge over West 3rd.

Ha! Or worse, surrounded by "art." But your point is indeed a scary one. 

[mrnyc]

^ agreed.

 

ok so lets look at some new court house buildings.

 

some look good (well, only san diego does below), so indeed it seems more of a crapshoot than a private hq tower/campus.

 

 

joilet

 

 

 

 

stockton

 

 

 

kansas city

 

 

 

 

nashville (federal, if that matters)

 

 

 

san diego

 

 

 

 

waukegon

 

[Sapper Daddy]

3 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

My biggest fear with a courthouse complex on the Jacobs lot is that parking will go in an awful stand alone parking garage in the center of the Weston lot surrounded by some unkept landscaping with a miserable bridge over West 3rd.

Some one already mentioned this.. but I would love for a new JC to be built where The Pit is.  I would think a garage could be built at the base similar to Willard Garage.. then open the garage to the public on weekends, holidays and special events as a source of revenue.  It would almost certainly increase waterfront line ridership as well.

[ASPhotoman]

I vote something close to the San Diego tower....if Jacobs lot isn't getting SW...put this on there.

[cle_guy90]

Let's also remember that these are county tax dollars so the more money that is used for this the new courthouse complex the less money there will be for other projects and services (thinking the RTA rail replacement).  I want it to be attractive yet economical.  

[Frmr CLEder]

13 minutes ago, cle_guy90 said:

Let's also remember that these are county tax dollars so the more money that is used for this the new courthouse complex the less money there will be for other projects and services (thinking the RTA rail replacement).  I want it to be attractive yet economical.  

You are absolutely correct, so why would the County build a low-budget, non-revenue generating courthouse on the most important parcel of real estate in the city?

The RTA track and vehicle replacement costs are huge and there's no money.  At least the Hilton generates revenue.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[Cleburger]

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

You are absolutely correct, so why would the County build a low-budget, non-revenue generating courthouse on the most important parcel of real estate in the city?

The RTA track and vehicle replacement costs are huge and there's no money.  At least the Hilton generates revenue.

 

Is that even allowed in government agencies?   I feel like the funding is way more restricted.  If you have a bond issue to fund a courthouse, you cant just move it willy nilly to RTA trains? 

[LlamaLawyer]

1 hour ago, Sapper Daddy said:

I agree that Downtown Cleveland will look far different in 15 years than today, however, a courts tower in the 900’ - 1,100’ range isn’t going to happen.  If all the local municipal jails consolidate into one building downtown, my guess is the tower could approach 500’.  
 

I’m by no means an expert here, but 900 feet is just not realistic.

 

See I don't really agree. Of course 900-1100' is my optimistic dream, but think about the towers we have right now. The federal court building is 430' with a much bigger floor-plan than would be doable on the Jacobs lot. Also, the county courts have way more judges and way more cases than the federal court here. The current Justice Center is 420' on what I believe is also a bigger floor plan than the Jacobs lot could accommodate. If the County want to expand what is in the Justice Center, that's adding significant space.

[Cleburger]

I have my doubts about the Jacob's lot.  If the Jackson administration was so concerned about "terrorism" in their fight to keep transit off Public Square, it makes me wonder if they would go for a courthouse on the square, and the "undesirables" that come along with it?  

[cle_guy90]

30 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Is that even allowed in government agencies?   I feel like the funding is way more restricted.  If you have a bond issue to fund a courthouse, you cant just move it willy nilly to RTA trains? 

 

O I agree!  But if the plan is not as elaborate the bond issue can be smaller which means more of the tax payers dollar left.  They cannot movie it willy nilly but at the same time they need to spend it wisely.  For instance, maybe $.20 of the sales tax goes to a bond for the new courthouse which would open up $.05 in sales tax to go towards the RTA.  I know one of the funding options for the RTA is to raise taxes but if we raise taxes again I believe it will have an adverse affect on how many people choose to stay in Cuyahoga verses moving to a Brunswick, North Olmsted, Hudson or other surrounding county suburbs.  I'd prefer to have an economical yet attractive justice complex versus an extravagant and costly one.

Edited October 29, 2019 by cle_guy90

[math]

15 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I have my doubts about the Jacob's lot.  If the Jackson administration was so concerned about "terrorism" in their fight to keep transit off Public Square, it makes me wonder if they would go for a courthouse on the square, and the "undesirables" that come along with it?  

 

That's not a very nice way to describe lawyers.

 

Seriously though. If the Justice Center goes on Public Square how much of the Weston lots would it require? 

[Chazz Michael Michaels]

2 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

I vote something close to the San Diego tower....if Jacobs lot isn't getting SW...put this on there.

Brooklyn NY.  Something along these lines would look outstanding on PS - IMO.

[KJP]

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

You are absolutely correct, so why would the County build a low-budget, non-revenue generating courthouse on the most important parcel of real estate in the city?

The RTA track and vehicle replacement costs are huge and there's no money.  At least the Hilton generates revenue.

 

By that rationale, we shouldn't have greenspace in Public Square. Or a federal courthouse on the east side of the square. Or a non-revenue-generating church on the north side either.

 

Courthouses go on public squares because of public access. Not everything has to make money. But it has to improve the quality of life. And this isn't likely to be a cheap building.

 

So here are estimates of building sizes based on measuring building via Google Earth (except police station for which there was a recent RFP), so they are not terribly precise. But they do give a rough estimate of the size of the structures involved.....

 

> Courthouse tower -- floors: 25;  floorplates: 29,750 sf; total: 743,750 sf

> Police headquarters (per RFP): 535,000 sf (includes parking, storage, staging etc)

> Jail 1 (1977) -- floors: 10; floorplates: 20,000 per block; total: 400,000 sf

> Jail 2 (1995) -- floors: 11; floorplates: 23,200; total: 255,200 sf

> Lobby/common areas/walkways: 64,550 sf

> Underground parking: 432,500 sf

 

That's a total of 2.4 million square feet. The Justice Center is actually 2.3 million square feet. The numbers don't add up because the police HQ RFP has larger parking and storage areas than is currently offered at the current Justice Center. So the other building sizes are about right.

 

Subtract the jails. They're not part of the equation downtown -- except for about 50,000 sf for arraignment/trial cells.

 

So I'm assuming a courthouse tower and a lobby for the Jacobs lot, which measures 50,000 sf. A 2- to 3-story-high, 50,000 sf lobby fills the lot. A few stories of support facilities with flooplates averaging 40,000 sf are above. The rest of the building has floorplates of 25,000 sf, including two levels of holding for arraignments/trials, plus the lobby, bringing the courthouse tower to about 850,000 sf. So it looks like we're talking a courthouse tower of about 30-35 stories, or about 500 feet tall.

 

 

The Weston block (bounded by W3, W6, Superior and Frankfort) immediately west of the Jacobs block measures about 110,000 sf. If the parking lot and the police HQ go there in connected structures with the police HQ's 240,000 sf of parking added to the 432,000 sf deck and the corners having 25,000 sf of groundfloor retail/lobbies (bringing the parking deck to 700,000 sf). That could fill the entire southern half of the Weston lots with a six-story parking deck. Then, top a corner of the 6-level deck with a 12-story police HQ's remaining 295,000 sf having floor plates of 25,000 sf.

 

[Frmr CLEder]

It would however, I doubt that Cuyahoga County, OH has the $$$ that Kings County, NY has.

 

Finally:

Isn't Metzenbaum CH on PS and Mall A? 

Wasn't PS developed as the town square?

A courthouse/jail on the most coveted real estate property does not make sense to me, sorry!

Edited October 29, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[KJP]

17 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It would however, I doubt that Cuyahoga County, OH has the $$$ that Kings County, NY has.

 

Finally:

Isn't Metzenbaum CH on PS and Mall A? 

Wasn't PS developed as the town square?

A courthouse/jail on the most coveted real estate property does not make sense to me, sorry!

 

If it was so coveted, it wouldn't have been a parking lot for 30 years -- and still counting.

[Frmr CLEder]

This is true.  I think only those on UO appreciate the inherent value of those locations.

 

The good news is that those dreadful lots will disappear. The bad news is that it warrants something earthshattering and iconic. I don't see a county courthouse meeting that objective.  I'd love for Cuyahoga County to prove me wrong!

Edited October 29, 2019 by Frmr CLEder
Spp

[GISguy]

27 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It would however, I doubt that Cuyahoga County, OH has the $$$ that Kings County, NY has.

 

Finally:

Isn't Metzenbaum CH on PS and Mall A? 

Wasn't PS developed as the town square?

A courthouse/jail on the most coveted real estate property does not make sense to me, sorry!

Look into the Burnham plan, public facilities facing a communal greenspace. Aka the malls being surrounded by civic institutions and major buildings surrounding Public Square (including his May Building). I'm no developer, but if the county were to include some type of street level retail (even shallow storefronts for security purposes), if that'd even be allowed, I don't see it being a terrible thing. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by GISguy

[Jenny]

Was the Courthosue Tower that was proposed by Ferchill on Lakeside back in the late 90's to serve the same purpose, or was that general office?

[KJP]

4 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

This is true.  I think only those on UO appreciate the inherent value of those locations.

 

The good news is that those dreadful lots will disappear. That bad news is that it warrants something earthshattering and iconic. I don't see a county courthouse meeting that objective.

 

I'm getting conflicting information on whether SHW would build something earth-shattering. One source said CEO Morikis didn't want anything iconic. But another said he saw a rendering of a 40-story HQ tower for SHW that was designed unlike anything that currently exists in Cleveland.

 

As others here have shown with pictures of courthouses in other cities, some of the designs can be pretty striking. It all depends on your planning/design team. And I think the county oversaw some pretty attractive buildings with the Hilton convention center hotel and the county administration building.

 

 

[Frmr CLEder]

The Burnham Group Plan (The Malls) did originally include only civic institutions. Over the years it has veered slightly off course with the demolition of some buildings, conversion of others and the additions of the hotels.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[KJP]

14 minutes ago, Jenny said:

Was the Courthosue Tower that was proposed by Ferchill on Lakeside back in the late 90's to serve the same purpose, or was that general office?

 

That was a hotel -- a DoubleTree. It was only called "courthouse" because it was going to be built next to the Courthouse Square building on Lakeside. The School Belle's building was demolished for it. Since the 28-story hotel wasn't built, it has remained a parking lot ever since....

 

 

 

BTW, that's not to be confused with Courthouse Plaza that was a 26-story condo planned between West Superior and the RTA tracks....

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by KJP

[Mov2Ohio]

2 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Brooklyn NY.  Something along these lines would look outstanding on PS - IMO.

Nope! Too many buildings look like that downtown already! 

[marty15]

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

That was a hotel -- a DoubleTree. It was only called "courthouse" because it was going to be built next to the Courthouse Square building on Lakeside. The School Belle's building was demolished for it. Since the 28-story hotel wasn't built, it has remained a parking lot ever since....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I loved that Courthouse Square rendering then, and it still looks great now.

[Chazz Michael Michaels]

1 hour ago, Mov2Ohio said:

Nope! Too many buildings look like that downtown already! 

Some of the new all glass towers are amazing - BUT I wouldn’t want a tower that looks like it has been plucked right out of anywhere USA. You are correct, there are a few towers in Cleveland that look like the Brooklyn tower - but I view that as something that makes Cleveland’s skyline look historic and unique 

[viscomi]

Just spit balling here but how about this area for new justice center complex. Access to old courthouse, law firms and rail access.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by viscomi

[Mov2Ohio]

18 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Some of the new all glass towers are amazing - BUT I wouldn’t want a tower that looks like it has been plucked right out of anywhere USA. You are correct, there are a few towers in Cleveland that look like the Brooklyn tower - but I view that as something that makes Cleveland’s skyline look historic and unique 

I.E. OLD! Lol, which it is when talking about the boom in towers that has taken place across the country and the World in the last 30 years. The all beige skyline gets boring. I don't mind any of our towers that look like that, but can we change it up a bit? Let's get some more glass towers, more different colors, get some aluminum in there! Just because a tower goes with the glassy trend, doesnt mean it has to look like AnyTower USA.

[Chazz Michael Michaels]

5 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

I.E. OLD! Lol, which it is when talking about the boom in towers that has taken place across the country and the World in the last 30 years. The all beige skyline gets boring. I don't mind any of our towers that look like that, but can we change it up a bit? Let's get some more glass towers, more different colors, get some aluminum in there! Just because a tower goes with the glassy trend, doesnt mean it has to look like AnyTower USA.

Respectfully disagree 

[Frmr CLEder]

54 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

I.E. OLD! Lol, which it is when talking about the boom in towers that has taken place across the country and the World in the last 30 years. The all beige skyline gets boring. I don't mind any of our towers that look like that, but can we change it up a bit? Let's get some more glass towers, more different colors, get some aluminum in there! Just because a tower goes with the glassy trend, doesnt mean it has to look like AnyTower USA.

The more glass, the better. As we all know, NEO has more than it's fair share of dark, cloudy, gloomy days.  More reflective glass towers could brighten the environment, incorporating more light into what would otherwise be a dark, gloomy cityscape.

One Cleveland Center, the Hilton and the Lumen have all been bright additions to the city's skyline.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Frmr CLEder

[CleveFan]

Agreed. The infusion of buildings like The Lumen, Hilton, One Cleveland (and even the Beacon) have been critical in modernizing Cleveland’s look and image. Don’t get me wrong - the older, beige-toned buildings include some world-class structures, but I think it’s very cool to move forward with modern buildings that evoke our time in the 21st century. And that doesn’t have to be a ”typical” tower that could be in virtually any big or not-so big city. 

 As to the location of a new Justice Center, I would definitely rather not have it atPublic Square .  (It’s likely that it would be the better part of a decade until that project eould rise)  That said, given the many years we’ve already waited to complete the 4th side of PS - and the chances of another SHW coming along -  a well designed new courthouse tower of 500’ could be very satisfying. But it’s design would have to  be a Home run at that centerpiece location. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by CleveFan