Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Build a working prototype first, then tell me how great it is. Even maglev had a prototype before the Germans abandoned it.

 

If a revenue service Hyperloop gets built anywhere, I will be shocked. Meanwhile, lots of cool, usable transportation technologies were or are being built to link cities around the world except in Ohio because we keep getting distracted by the next shiny thing. It's one of the reasons why we have nothing except damning reports saying how isolated and disconnected we are from opportunities and each other.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to sum - if a hypothetical headline said:

 

"High speed rail being explored to connect Chicago and Cleveland"

 

If its Amtrak - good?

If its Hyperloop - bad?

 

Correct, because if it was an Amtrak proposal it would be sensible, by a proven operator, based on already existing technology, and about 1,000 times more likely to actually come to fruition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I agree with Erocc here.  What if this is the next big thing in technology and transportation?  I could only imagine the public backlash if Cleveland leaders did nothing and this turned out to be a smashing success for other cities around the country and world.  1.2mil is nothing when compared to RTA's overall needs and budget.  Think big or go home. 

 

 

If it's such a great idea, it will be built everywhere eventually.  But because it is a bad idea, it won't be built anywhere, ever.   

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Build a working prototype first, then tell me how great it is. Even maglev had a prototype before the Germans abandoned it.

 

If a revenue service Hyperloop gets built anywhere, I will be shocked. Meanwhile, lots of cool, usable transportation technologies were or are being built to link cities around the world except in Ohio because we keep getting distracted by the next shiny thing. It's one of the reasons why we have nothing except damning reports saying how isolated and disconnected we are from opportunities and each other.

 

I hear a lot about how Cleveland gets distracted by the next shiny idea, but I don't recall anything daring, forward thinking or shiny that has been tried in the last twenty years.  Can anyone fill me in on our previous distracting projects?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I agree with Erocc here.  What if this is the next big thing in technology and transportation?  I could only imagine the public backlash if Cleveland leaders did nothing and this turned out to be a smashing success for other cities around the country and world.  1.2mil is nothing when compared to RTA's overall needs and budget.  Think big or go home. 

 

If it's such a great idea, it will be built everywhere eventually.  But because it is a bad idea, it won't be built anywhere, ever.   

 

 

I'll wait until the feasibility study comes out before believing some random internet dude with an axe to grind..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll wait until the feasibility study comes out before believing some random internet dude with an axe to grind..

 

 

The feasibility study is going to indicate that it's unfeasible.  Because it is not feasible.  Because it's unfeasible. 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I hear a lot about how Cleveland gets distracted by the next shiny idea, but I don't recall anything daring, forward thinking or shiny that has been tried in the last twenty years.  Can anyone fill me in on our previous distracting projects?

 

Not so much Cleveland but Ohio in general has been distracted by:

 

+ Columbus Smart initiative in which business community backers pledged to use this unproven, car-dependant technology to "leapfrog light rail." Note the similar language in the last, oldest bulleted item from 30 years ago.

 

+ Tubular Rail was the latest cockamamie train idea that lacked a real-world prototype. It appeared out of nowhere during the 3C project and disappeared just as fast when the 3C project was killed.

 

+ US Railcar's proposed an excessively high-level self-propelled rail car that was not in production. It was pushed by a successful businessman who was a close friend of the ODOT director during the 3C project. It wasn't the worst idea in the world but sometimes Ohio acts like it has no awareness whatsoever of any existing, off the shelf rail technologies that would reduce the amount of bugs and delays and cost overruns while introducing a new rail service like 3C. Instead Ohio's leaders like to make things harder on themselves because they doesn't know any better.

 

+ The Ohio Railroad Organization's $750 million high-speed test track between Springfield and Columbus that was proposed as ODOT was advancing its first Access Ohio plan for developing an introductory level of passenger rail service on 3C and C-P corridors.

 

+ There is always a maglev proposal lurking, especially one involving Pittsburgh, it's airport, and sometimes Cleveland or Philadelphia. Carnegie-Mellon was a hotbed of maglev research in the 1990s and got millions in federal research money while we couldn't even get a like amount to restore the Ravenna Connection track to restore the "missing mile" between Cleveland and Youngstown and route Cleveland-Pittsburgh Amtrak trains via the more populous Youngstown route.  We were often told steel wheel on steel rail technology was old fashioned while maglev was the future.  Maglev is still the technology of the future and may always be due to its cost-ineffectiveness over conventional rail technology.

 

+  And one of my "favorites" was the era in which Ohio Rep. Art Wilkowski pledged to build high speed trains "on the ashes of Amtrak."  A statewide sales tax was put on the ballot to build the high speed rail system but was defeated by a 2 to 1 margin.  Even though we proposed a much more cost effective option in the succeeding years, that failed vote at the ballot was always thrown at us as a reason not to do anything at all.

 

And so the only ashes became Ohio's once dominant rail industry, its manufacturers, and its jobs. So while the likes of Columbus Castings and American Foundries closed up shop in Ohio, rail manufacturers opened in places like New York state and California to build new trains for Amtrak and Florida's Brightline service.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cleveland leaders got what they wanted — national buzz about Cleveland....

 

Cleveland Finishes Construction On New Elevated Sewer System

 

“We’re confident these towering troughs of cascading brown sludge moving through the night sky high above the Cuyahoga River—and often discharging directly into Lake Erie—will become as iconic as the Gateway Arch or the Golden Gate Bridge.” - Mayor Jackson

 

https://www.theonion.com/cleveland-finishes-construction-on-new-elevated-sewer-s-1823332951/amp?__twitter_impression=true

v6716qd8kxhkmygmprqz.jpg.eb8f0e658ae26f3b38935c2961b543dd.jpg


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My filing cabinet, along with several feet thick of studies since the 1970s that never resulted in actual construction. I collect these studies in case someone in the future wants to know the history of Ohio's inaction.

 

By the way, that's another distraction. Cleveland Union Terminal lost its railroad access because the Ohio Rail Transportation Authority refused to save the commuter train to Youngstown. ORTA was focused only on high speed rail. After the commuter train stopped running in 1977, we lost all rail access to Tower City. The entire railroad station underside of Tower City was converted to a multi-level parking deck that prevented the cost effective return of railroad service.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+ US Railcar's proposed an excessively high-level self-propelled rail car that was not in production. It was pushed by a successful businessman who was a close friend of the ODOT director during the 3C project. It wasn't the worst idea in the world but sometimes Ohio acts like it has no awareness whatsoever of any existing, off the shelf rail technologies that would reduce the amount of bugs and delays and cost overruns while introducing a new rail service like 3C. Instead Ohio's leaders like to make things harder on themselves because they doesn't know any better.

 

Not to prove your point about Ohioans getting distracted by unrealistic rail technology, but do you have more information about this? I've never heard about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Not to prove your point about Ohioans getting distracted by unrealistic rail technology, but do you have more information about this? I've never heard about it.

 

Google videos of US Railcar and Tri-rail demo in Florida.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I know for certain these people have no practical awareness of how to develop this system. The average time for infrastructure for a proven transportation technology to go from idea to ribbon cutting is 10 years. This doesn't have a working prototype yet. But Cleveland is innovative!

 

Great Lakes Hyperloop consortium sees Cleveland-Chicago link possible in 3 to 5 years (photos, video)

https://articles.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2018/02/goal_of_great_lakes_hyperloop.amp?__twitter_impression=true


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its funny because some of the same viscerally negative reactions I see here about hyperloop remind me of some of the things I used to see people say at Cleveland.bomb about BRT. I mean, let the doggone thing play out. Let the feasibility study be done and then go from there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BRT had prototypes including in revenue service.  That's my biggest concern. Everybody's going crazy about this and they don't even know if the technology will work.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to sum - if a hypothetical headline said:

 

"High speed rail being explored to connect Chicago and Cleveland"

 

If its Amtrak - good?

If its Hyperloop - bad?

 

Correct, because if it was an Amtrak proposal it would be sensible, by a proven operator, based on already existing technology, and about 1,000 times more likely to actually come to fruition.

 

Is that always true?

https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/19/us/amtrak-derailment-washington/index.html

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Car travel is up to 17 times more dangerous than train travel, per passenger mile. Did that keep you from driving a car today?

 

There are hundreds of billions of dollars worth of recently completed, underway, or about to begin projects for traditional steel-wheel-on-steel-rail technology carrying people. That includes many billions to improve Amtrak, including positive train control that would have prevented that Washington State derailment that killed two friends if mine who were riding the first run over that new rail line.


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, they're not.  The technology does not exist. 

That you know of.  Cutting edge technology is not typically public knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While lots have things have changed with 1s and 0s in the past 80 years nothing has changed with physics. And it won't. Physics operates on Laws whereas screen stuff has few Laws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So?  Bureaucracy driving up costs of infrastructure is an orthogonal concern to the technology used.  There's no reason high-speed rail couldn't be built more efficiently and/or a potential hyperloop couldn't end up being bogged down by government regulations and requirements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just because the internet managed to get away with a lot fewer regulations than TV and radio from being "new", doesn't mean that something in the physical realm that can easily kill people and results in changes to the physical landscape won't become extra regulated.

 

If meatspace was capable of advancing quickly and in leaps and bounds we definitely wouldn't be doing our own laundry by now. Meatspace changes happen in an evolutionary manner over decades and centuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That you know of.  Cutting edge technology is not typically public knowledge.

 

I think the point he is saying that the technology is not ready for revenue service. The reason is that there is no operational prototype for a long-distance (100+ miles) Hyperloop. A long-distance prototype is essential to learn how that tube's low-atmospheric pressure is maintained over a significant distance with the steel tube's temperature rising and falling, and thus the tube expanding and contracting (metal fatigue!). It will require vacuum sealed expansion joints and perfect tube alignments.

 

Three years ago, Elon Musk wanted a 5-mile-long Hyperloop test track, proposed to be built in Texas. But construction finished last year on the longest Hyperloop test track in the world -- a mere 0.75 miles in Hawthorne, California, which is a little longer than Virgin Hyperloop One's DevLoop. Consider:

 

For starters, the radial thermal expansion of the steel tubes under direct sunlight will result in pipeline distortions between joints. And, over a 100km pipeline, the longitudinal thermal expansion could be as much as 50m, meaning that a huge number of flexible joints would have to be in place. With so many moving joints, over such a distance, all under vacuum: it’s a maintenance nightmare in the making.

 

Then there are questions about whether the steel is strong enough to withstand normal atmospheric pressure when it’s internal pressure is so drastically reduced. Atmospheric forces acting on the outside of the structure would be around 10 tonnes per square metre, with almost nothing pushing back on the vacuum sealed inner structure. It makes sudden and catastrophic buckling a very real potential hazard. The pipeline would also have to take the vibrational and centrifugal forces of the pods – thought to weigh between 10 and 15 tonnes fully loaded – travelling at close to the speed of sound. The steel pipelines wall thickness will almost certainly need to be greater than the current test pipelines of just 20mm.

 

SOURCE: http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/design-engineering-features/technology/the-impossible-engineering-reality-check-facing-hyperloop/157339/


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While lots have things have changed with 1s and 0s in the past 80 years nothing has changed with physics. And it won't. Physics operates on Laws whereas screen stuff has few Laws.

 

This issue comes up all the time as it relates to battery life. The reason that smartphones keep getting longer battery life each year is because the software gets better about using the battery (turning off cell/wifi/bluetooth radios when they are not needed, etc.). The actual battery technology only gets a tiny bit better each year, and won't have a major jump until scientists have a breakthrough and invent a new type of battery that can store more energy in a smaller physical space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^KJP, it should be noted that the California High Speed Rail authority is spending A LOT of time and effort studying the ground vibrations that will be caused by its trains.  Those trains will no doubt be much heavier than a hyperloop pod (especially when loaded with hundreds of passengers instead of just 30), but they'll "only" be traveling 220mph.  No doubt that the vibrations caused by a 30-person pod traveling at 500+mph will be very significant, even if the thing is a mag-lev. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While lots have things have changed with 1s and 0s in the past 80 years nothing has changed with physics. And it won't. Physics operates on Laws whereas screen stuff has few Laws.

 

This issue comes up all the time as it relates to battery life. The reason that smartphones keep getting longer battery life each year is because the software gets better about using the battery (turning off cell/wifi/bluetooth radios when they are not needed, etc.). The actual battery technology only gets a tiny bit better each year, and won't have a major jump until scientists have a breakthrough and invent a new type of battery that can store more energy in a smaller physical space.

 

Musk's companies are working on that too.  He wants to be not only D. D. Harriman but Daniel Shipstone as well.  One of the worst trends wrt the future is science fiction replacing bold advances with SJW yawnfests.

 

Hyperloop may not be feasible, but in essence NE Ohio is betting on someone a lot of people have made a lot of money betting on.

 

The fact is if some alien entity communicated with us and said some history changing secret was on the moon, whoever got to it first gets it, but you can't kill your people or attack other efforts, SpaceX would probably have it within a couple years, well before any government could.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just because the internet managed to get away with a lot fewer regulations than TV and radio from being "new", doesn't mean that something in the physical realm that can easily kill people and results in changes to the physical landscape won't become extra regulated.

 

If meatspace was capable of advancing quickly and in leaps and bounds we definitely wouldn't be doing our own laundry by now. Meatspace changes happen in an evolutionary manner over decades and centuries.

 

The rules of aerodynamics haven't changed, yet the F-16 , F-117, and other "fly by wire" aircraft, once impossible, push the limits on a daily basis.

 

For that matter, some once thought the speed of sound was a hard limit for controlled aircraft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Science fiction has never been SJW-free.  The concepts go hand in hand.  Those "bold advances" are often just storytelling devices allowing the author to deal with mundane issues through metaphor.  Star Trek is credited with inspiring personal computers and cell phones, but it was also infamous for blunt social commentary.  Warnings about an unequal future go back at least as far as HG Wells.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know why we are using "hyperloop" as the generic name for the technology that Elon Musk is proposing. Shouldn't we be calling it "vactrain," which is what this technology was called before Musk re-invented it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... well before any government could.[/color]

 

And who is funding the hyperloop feasibility studies??


"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." -- Tommy Douglas, Scottish-born Canadian Baptist minister and the seventh Premier of Saskatchewan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The U.S. Space program started from scratch in 1958 and 11 years later landed men on the moon and brought them back home safely.  Space X was founded in 2002.  They've had 16 years to do something.  So far they launched a car into space as a publicity stunt. 

 

Also, the Saturn V was *significantly* more powerful than Space X's new rocket -- that was FIFTY years ago.  Yet Musk gets away with fooling the public into thinking he built the "world's most powerful rocket".  There are still a half dozen Saturn V's sitting around -- one's at a rest stop in Alabama. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... well before any government could.[/color]

 

And who is funding the hyperloop feasibility studies??

 

And whose launch pad is SpaceX using?

 

Not for free.

 

Government can do closed end projects like building launch pads reasonably well.  It's ongoing programs without clear goals where they stumble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...