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Htsguy

Cleveland: Which Project Will Be Next and Why

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It is frustrating to me that so many new construction projects seem to be on the "verge" in Cleveland but don't seem to be breaking ground for one reason or another.  As a result we tend to not discuss them much since there really is no news.  I thought it would be fun to at least jump start some discussion even if most of us are not in the "know" and will just be speculating.

 

So...of the 6 following proposed developments (actually, one of the below is just a rumor although a strong rumor), which do you think will break ground first and why do you think so?  Note I have not included Intesta in the list as they keep saying they are going to break ground before the end of the year so I am going to give Coral and partners the benefit of the doubt (even though I rarely do so with them).

 

1.  One University Circle

2.  Lakefront mixed use development

3.  Stark Nucleus

4.  Brinkman Duck Island mixed used development

5.  Second Flats office building

6.  Rumored mixed use building on PlayHouse Square (next to the Hanna on Euclid).

 

I have not included everything out there (like Cleveland Clinic med school or Holiday Inn and Apartments at the old Jewish Federation site) so if you think some other major project might break ground first go ahead and speculate

 

Of the six I think the Brinkman Duck Island project will see the shovel first.  They already have preliminary site approval and have started selective demo (although that was a while ago).  He never seems to have financing problems and is a guy who has a proven track record of getting things done.  A little concerned that his recent break with his partner may slow things down.

 

Buy the way...the project I would LIKE to see break ground first would be Stark's.

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Definitely Duck Island.  Brickman has site control, he's demoed certain parts of the site already, he's deep in the administrative process, and he has a track record of getting similar projects done.  I'm not sure his financing situation but housing in that neighborhood is likely to get a pretty positive look from lenders.

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How about Breakwater Bluffs? They also have site control now.

 

Are there some historic conversions that already have tax credits but haven't yet gotten underway? Perhaps Le Méridien could be counted among these?


In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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Do we think it's more of a funding issue or lack of qualified construction workers issue? I've read articles over the past year that suggest that many left construction in the Great Recession and aren't coming back.

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^I would imagine the reasons are different for each project with funding always being the big nut.  My guess that at this point funding is still an issue for One University Circle, the Flats office building among others.

 

In terms of the construction issue, I am kind of concerned about that aspect when it comes to One University.  Has Schneider ever done a high rise...I am only familiar with his shopping centers.  I imagine that kind of development requires a whole different expertise when entering into the required relationships and contracts.  Hopefully he has an experienced CM already on board.

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Oh, and Coral/Panzica are confident that Intesa will get underway before Jan. 1.


In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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^Like I said in my original post I did not include Intesa in the list because they have continually stated they are going to break ground before the end of the year and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.  However, I have never been a big fan of Coral (no problem with Panzica) so we will have to wait and see.  I think it is approaching 3 and a half years since they were awarded the original option.

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The Lakefront mixed-use development needs a lot more scrutiny.

 

I'd really like to see progress, but the waterfront is a unique asset. This thing's gotta be well planned out and done the right way.

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^Like I said in my original post I did not include Intesa in the list because they have continually stated they are going to break ground before the end of the year and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.  However, I have never been a big fan of Coral (no problem with Panzica) so we will have to wait and see.  I think it is approaching 3 and a half years since they were awarded the original option.

  The only thing holding Intesa back right now is the street vacation process--and that's in the City's hands. Only a matter of time.

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1.  Second Flats office building

2.  Brinkman Duck Island mixed used development

3. - 5.  not sure about the middle

6. Lakefront mixed use development

 

 

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^Considering Stark's project was announced in August of this year, I would doubt that as well - because it's completely unrealistic in the world of commercial real estate. To put things into perspective - the Hudson Yards site on the west side of Manhattan was first 'picked' as a potential development site in 2005 and nine years later, construction is finally underway.

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For One University Circle, they can't start construction until the Children's Museum has moved, so that's something to keep an eye on next spring/summer.

 

cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/04/childrens_museum_committed_to.html

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I'm in for Brickman.

I read something yesterday - I think it was in my email but I cannot locate it now - where they were inviting investors to take a stake. I think it was for his project, but it could have been for something else nearby

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1.  One University Circle

2.  Lakefront mixed use development

3.  Stark Nucleus

4.  Brinkman Duck Island mixed used development

5.  Second Flats office building

6.  Rumored mixed use building on PlayHouse Square (next to the Hanna on Euclid).

 

Brickman's project is my vote for #1, the urban residential market is red hot right now. 

The Flats East Bank project is #2.  Should start building in the spring.  They are signing up tenants now

 

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I doubt Start has financing or even tenants. 

^Considering Stark's project was announced in August of this year, I would doubt that as well - because it's completely unrealistic in the world of commercial real estate. To put things into perspective - the Hudson Yards site on the west side of Manhattan was first 'picked' as a potential development site in 2005 and nine years later, construction is finally underway.

 

Any chance Stark might at least tackle renovation of those buildings on Prospect involved in that protracted litigation as he tries to get his ducks in order for the big show on the parking lot?

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I'm in for Brickman.

I read something yesterday - I think it was in my email but I cannot locate it now - where they were inviting investors to take a stake. I think it was for his project, but it could have been for something else nearby

 

Musky, is this the one?

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,28822.msg729863.html#msg729863

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^Considering Stark's project was announced in August of this year, I would doubt that as well - because it's completely unrealistic in the world of commercial real estate. To put things into perspective - the Hudson Yards site on the west side of Manhattan was first 'picked' as a potential development site in 2005 and nine years later, construction is finally underway.

 

That's a much more complicated site which includes a reinforced concrete protective structure constructed above the dozens of tracks coming out of the west side of Penn Station. The funding for that required a multi-year environmental assessment because more than $100 million in federal funds were sought (and received).


In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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I'm in for Brickman.

I read something yesterday - I think it was in my email but I cannot locate it now - where they were inviting investors to take a stake. I think it was for his project, but it could have been for something else nearby

 

Musky, is this the one?

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,28822.msg729863.html#msg729863

 

Yup. Thanks!

Me and my selective, short-term memory

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I know it's not nearly as big as these other projects, but this thread reminded what a small miracle Mariners Watch on Detroit Ave is.  Off the top of my head, it's one of the very few multifamily project (meaning apartments or non-townhouse condos) in recent memory that was announced, broke ground, and progressed towards completion all in quick succession, and without any subsidy beyond the as-of-right property tax abatement for new residential. It's been a nice counterpoint to all the big go/stop/go projects that have taken years to get going.

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FWIW I'd put Stark's project last.  Not only because of the size....but I can't get past Pesht.  All hype no action.

 

Stark is a showman and often aims higher than he has actually delivered. But while he overshot on Pesht and came up totally empty (except for his new HQ), he has delivered most of what he promised with Crocker Park and Eton Collection.


In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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Well here we are 5 months later and NOW, how would you rate the prospects for the many projects in the works?  I think we can add Marous Bros. building on Detroit and put Intessa back into the questionable category.

My thought is that Brickman's Duck Island project is #1 and FEB office bldg. #2.  I really trust UCI and so One Cle Ctr is #3.  Lakefront is last.

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^When I first started this thread, as noted in my post,  I did not include Intesa in my original list because the developer kept saying they were going to break ground before the end of the year.  So here we are in Feb. 2015 and not a peep from them.  You really should not blow your horn if the odds are you are not going to be able to follow through.  This project drives me nuts because of all its advantages (location and support of UCI)  and potential, and yet nothing.

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So from conversations I've had, Brickman is having a hard time acquiring the last 3 parcels he wants from a stubborn landowner.  Apparently, he (Andrew Brickman) offended the older landowner - if you know Andrew, you know this is not uhhm.....outside the realm of possibility.  As a result, the landowner is now asking an exorbitant price and being less than amenable to negotiations.  As it stands right now, the project can move forward but the site is not ideal from his point of view.

 

I went to a CPC meeting a couple months ago and at the meeting there was another homeowner who is boxed in on all sides be either unbuildable land or property owned by Brickman.  Given that, Brickman must grant the homeowner ingress/egress to a public road.  It became clear that the two sides had had no formal negotiations about the subject at that point.  Without getting to much into the administrative details, the CPC was clear that they could not thoroughly vacate the public right of way necessary for the project unless this was worked out between the homeowner and Brickman.

 

All that said, Brickman owns enough land to start the project and he already has demoed some structures.  IMHO, this is a great project that has most of the big pieces tee'ed up but cannot start in earnest given some difficult personalities.

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Thanks for that info sixthcity.  Maybe I'll change also.  I actually think that Marous' building on Detroit will be first.  This is due to the success of Mariner's Watch right next door. 

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What do we consider "starting" for Stark's project? Does the parking garage count? Wouldn't surprise me to see that start first over everything, even if the tower doesn't come until later.

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They definitely want to do parking first at nuCLEus... and their hope is to have at least some of it ready by the RNC. I have a cousin that is apparently in the loop on it from his job and he told me this over Christmas. He actually was being all secretive about it and claimed he couldn't say much, but I got that out of him.

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Is mariner's watch a success yet?  I've heard from an early resident that its mostly a shell of a building still.  Elevators aren't working, and they're not collecting rent yet due to the project not being complete.  Advertised move in dates were around Dec 20, and I'd expect the building to be complete for move-in?

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1) That looks awesome, sizzlinbeef.

2) Does anyone have any inside knowledge about the Brickman Duck Island project? Are they still having issues gaining site control? Is there any chance they will be starting work anytime soon?

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Awesome graphic, Sizzling! Mind if I use that for a blog posting? Suggestion: make nuCLEus the same light-blue color as the other proposed buildings so it stands out, too.


In 1976, the City of Cleveland issued NINE building permits. NINE. When we start to feel down about the progress of development here vs. other cities, remember how lifeless Cleveland was and how far it's come.

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