Jump to content
KJP

Police Use of Force

Recommended Posts

Per the autopsy, Brown was shot SIX times including TWICE in the head.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Per the autopsy, Brown was shot SIX times including TWICE in the head.

 

Once you start firing, you keep firing until you know the target is at least incapacitated.  That's basic.  Plus cops are human and there is an adrenalin factor.

 

There may be no "death penalty" for resisting arrest, but there is a death risk, just like there is for a home invasion.  It's no stretch whatsoever to believe that the guy in the store security video would resist arrest.

 

Speaking of such, for a mob to target and loot that store after the video was released was just about the most stereotype-reinforcing thing that could have happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sort of amused by the people tweeting that the rioters should go into the white neighborhoods.  Even the looters are smarter than that.  Though one fails to see what trashing one's own neighborhood accomplishes.[/color]

 

Don't believe what you read on those white power sites. Half those twitter accts are probably fakes. The 'revolution' is not here yet and is much more of a pipe dream then they'd like to admit

 

Oh, they probably mostly fakes.  But that mindset shows up whenever there's an inner city riot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never, once they show how violent he was to the police officer, trying to take his gun.  Justifiable homicide.  If he was going to put his hands in the air, he would have done it immediately.

 

There's no way the officer doesn't get charged.  Need to see more details if Mike Brown had gunpowder residue on his clothing to indicate he was shot at close range/struggling with the cop's gun in the car...  even then, I don't see any way that the officer doesn't get charged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's multiple ways he could be charged.  He may face administrative charges if he didn't follow procedure.  Those charges would only affect his employment and that administrative investigation would be kept totally separate from any criminal investigation.  He could get charged and indicted in state court for either homicide or felonious assault (the latter if no intent to kill is found, which is doubtful considering the 'kill shots' which were fired).  He could get charged and indicted in federal court for civil rights violations if it is found either that the shooting was racially motivated (under such circumstances he could get charged with a parallel state crime) or if it was found that he used excessive force while the suspect was in custody (this is most common for jailhouse use of force incidents).

 

It's certainly possible that he doesn't get charged at all.  But he is likely going to have to have some more evidence than his word considering the other witness accounts.  A he said, they said circumstance would result in an indictment because the grand jury's job is not to resolve conflicting testimony, only to determine whether adequate evidence exists to support an indictment.  Wilson might even elect to maintain his 5th Amendment rights and not testify before a grand jury.  Other forensic work might really help him or it might really hurt him.

 

Never, once they show how violent he was to the police officer, trying to take his gun.  Justifiable homicide.  If he was going to put his hands in the air, he would have done it immediately.

 

If his fingerprints are on the gun or the holster and the shots were at close range, then it could be justifiable homicide.  But I fail to see how you jump to such drastic conclusions.  Keep an open mind on this one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm honestly not convinced after the autopsy that Mike Brown was running away when he was shot. And this was a separate autopsy done at the request of the family. He was shot six times, and all were from the front. Not a single shot was fired into his back as the witnesses claimed. Still too early to say for certain. Unless you have a Twitter account.

 

This is a terrible situation, but there have been so many knee-jerk reactions on both sides. It's really frustrating to watch the constant barrage on social media. Everyone is an expert and has all of the answers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^I think I saw one witness account that he was running away, but I thought the majority of them indicated he was shot while he had his hands up.  He might've started to run away and then turned back to the officer when a warning shot was fired.  The inventory of Wilson's magazine compared to the number of times Brown was shot might be illustrative.

 

No gun powder was found on the body.  The clothes have yet to be tested, but the kill shot to the head would have left some residue on the body if fired at close range.  Also didn't he have short sleeves on?  There would also be gun powder residue on his arm.  That is actually where I was thinking they would find it from a struggle in the police car.  Hopefully, for Wilson's sake, the police took proper precautions in preserving Brown's clothing.  Tests also need to be conducted inside the police cruiser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crazy stuff happens when there is a perceived 'injustice'.  Here is 'stereo-type reinforcing' Happy Valley, Pa. after their football coach got fired.

 

WTAJ_OverturnedNewsVan.jpg

 

guy%20on%20van%20penn%20state.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a related note, police departments and civil libertarians are apparently both getting more and more comfortable with the idea of small, wearable cameras on police.  Dashboard cameras for cars have been around for a while now, but miniaturization is getting to the point where individual officers can wear them on their bodies without weighing them down too much.  The results have been fairly promising in some studies on smaller police forces; AFAIK, there haven't been studies on the major forces, and I don't know if this has been done with units like SWAT teams, either, but it's a promising start:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/business/wearable-video-cameras-for-police-officers.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

FTR, I don't see any reason why such cameras would not have similar impact on larger forces, because the logical explanation to me is that the effect operates at the level of the individual officer, not the force.

 

Liberals and civil libertarians used to have some misgivings about this (Bill DiBlasio had some lukewarm comments about the concept in NYC ... http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-tape-everything-in-public-0818-20140818-story.html#page=1), because it would mean basically constant surveillance wherever a police officer goes.  Think of the customer service calls where you get the warning that "this call may be monitored or recorded," only in this case, there would be no warning, you'd just be responsible for knowing that everything you do within the line of sight of a police officer is probably being recorded (and, given the march of big data, photo recognition, etc., likely analyzed in real time).  However, given the growing concern about police use of force, the customer-service-call-monitoring analogy has some attraction as well (after all, part of the reason companies record those calls is to know what their customers are saying, but they're generally far more interested in knowing how their own people are responding).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the cops should be able to turn the camera off and on. No need to record their lunch break or random driving. If an officer responds to a scene or confronts someone, they would turn their body camera on as they are leaving the car. No need for nonstop surveillance and zero privacy for the officer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^That could lead to abuses and unnecessary skepticism.  The way most dash cams work is that they are triggered when the cop turns his cruiser lights on.

 

The other issue with cops filming everyone at all times is that they themselves often don't like to be filmed by the accused during a routine traffic stop.  I still think the benefits outweigh the potential for abuse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Per the autopsy, Brown was shot SIX times including TWICE in the head.

 

All from the front.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

 

It was six shots, two in the head. I don't care if they came from outer space. It's sadistic overkill. It tells me they treated this kid like a piece of meat. That level anger will be returned in equal force against a cop by someone, somewhere. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I don't condone it, but I do expect it because no one is backing down. So much hatred....


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Disagreed. An officer never knows when he/she will suddenly come upon a situation that requires potential use of a firearm. If you work in retail/restaurants/customer service, odds are you are being recorded every minute you're on premises. Which line of work is more important?

 

If youtube is to be believed, everybody in Russia has a dash cam to cut down on insurance fraud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was six shots, two in the head. I don't care if they came from outer space. It's sadistic overkill. It tells me they treated this kid like a piece of meat. That level anger will be returned in equal force against a cop by someone, somewhere. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I don't condone it, but I do expect it because no one is backing down. So much hatred....

 

Certainly you would know of police procedures not to fire to wound and to fire multiple times.  I heard along with the 2 shots to the head, he was hit in the hand and arm.  Certainly, if those were the first shots, they wouldn't stop someone, and it might require more shots to bring them down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Not likely in this circumstance.  The wounds indicate a flurry of successive shots aimed at center mass.  The witness accounts also indicate a series of rapid shots, and the reports the cops have selected to release don't dispute that.  The only contradictory accounts suggest that one or two shots might've been fired during a struggle in the police cruiser.  But, like I said before, if that was the case, there probably would be gun powder residue on the victim. 

 

Cops don't aim for the upper arm if they are trying to simply wound.  There is an artery in your arm, which if hit, would cause you to bleed out.  Same goes for the thigh.  If incapacitating a threat is truly the goal, the cop would at least try to knee cap him, or more likely resort to a taser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

any results of the initial autopsy about toxicology report, that might indicate if Mike Brown was high on something?  Random twitter account referencing some unnamed witnesses saying he charged the officer...  might explain random aggression

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Random twitter account referencing some unnamed witnesses

 

And who took the time to report on this random twitter account referencing some unnamed witnesses?

 

Hopefully, they did not make the same mistake they made in the Trayvon Martin case by doing a toxicology report on the victim but not the shooter.  I'm confident the officer was sober, but it would not help the situation if they failed to do their due diligence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arrested in #Ferguson: mothers, fathers, Holocaust survivors, journalists, citizens. Not arrested in Ferguson: #DarrenWilson

 

We saw the video surveillance of #MichaelBrown. Where is the video from the police cruiser #DarrenWilson was in? Why haven't we seen that?!?


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arrested in #Ferguson: mothers, fathers, Holocaust survivors, journalists, citizens. Not arrested in Ferguson: #DarrenWilson

 

We saw the video surveillance of #MichaelBrown. Where is the video from the police cruiser #DarrenWilson was in? Why haven't we seen that?!?

 

Yes, they only arrested the guilty people.

 

You haven't seen the video, because you have no need to see it until the investigation is complete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They spent all of their money on armored vehicles and other military equipment.  Nothing left for dash cams.

 

There is a video now circulating which shows the immediate aftermath of the shooting.  The witness who took the video had the respect not to release it until Wilson was identified.  Wilson is seen pacing around the body, which is laying face down in the street.  He looks emotionally distressed about what just happened, as would most anyone who just took another's life, but does not appear to have any serious physical injury.

 

Yes, they only arrested the guilty people.

 

Now I know what I'm getting you for the holidays.....

 

tumblr_lon5josiZy1qzmr3jo1_500.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, they only arrested the guilty people.

 

 

One can easily tell by the color of their skin or the size of their wallet....


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, they only arrested the guilty people.

 

 

One can easily tell by the color of their skin or the size of their wallet....

 

Right.  Because white people never get their asses kicked by cops, or are arrested unjustly, maced/tasered/teargassed/fired on with rubber bullets while in a rowdy crowd after ignoring orders to disperse....

 

Shoot KJP I think it was you that posted pics of those white kids protesting during the "Occupy" movement getting maced while just sitting there... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes because we all know the history of how badly we've victimized and oppressed rich, white people in America.  :roll:


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^This one appears to clearly be justified.  Unfortunate, for sure.  But the suspect was brandishing a weapon and very close at the time of the shooting.  Assuming the victim was black, this should give a good test as to whether all of these people are correct that there is an uproar each and every time a black man is killed by the police.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CityLab ‏@CityLab  10m

Whites have confidence in #Ferguson investigations. Blacks, not so much http://trib.al/RrwyLda  via @nationaljournal


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's sad how much people hate cops when something goes bad, yet love them when they're there to save the day for you personally.  No one is perfect at their job, yet we all expect cops to do their job with 100% accuracy.  No one wants to see this happen and cops NEVER want to shoot people.  The only time shots are fired are when it's my life versus yours. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^The actions of the police can't be judged with 20/20 hindsight.  They have to make split-second decisions and that is exactly what this particular case might come down to depending on the evidence.  The overall hatred and distrust of the police is not right and I have commented on that many times on this site.  But let's not pretend that 'cops NEVER want to shoot people.'  Just as any other group of thousands upon thousands, there are bad apples.  The profession is not immune from getting infiltrated by cowboys who want nothing more than an excuse to use their service revolver.  Then there is also the simple fact that the profession is not for everyone.  You have to have the right temperament to be a cop and a big component of that is the necessity of extremely thick skin.  You can't lose your temper.  You have to maintain your cool and use PROPORTIONAL force.  Cops are prone to human error just like the rest of us and, although they are given more of the benefit of the doubt when mistakes are made, they are not immune from consequences for horrible decisions.

 

The general tone of your comment can be applied to many professions.  Nobody likes a prick lawyer, but everyone wants THEIR lawyer to be a prick.  Politicians are all scum, unless we are talking about the few you actually voted for.  Firefighters are overpaid and lazy..... until they run into your burning house and resuscitate your kid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has #Ferguson Police Response to protests Gone Too Far?

 

-65% Black said Yes

-33% Whites said Yes

 

source: Pew http://t.co/9lpQjBgoWH


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^The actions of the police can't be judged with 20/20 hindsight.  They have to make split-second decisions and that is exactly what this particular case might come down to depending on the evidence.  The overall hatred and distrust of the police is not right and I have commented on that many times on this site.  But let's not pretend that 'cops NEVER want to shoot people.'  Just as any other group of thousands upon thousands, there are bad apples.  The profession is not immune from getting infiltrated by cowboys who want nothing more than an excuse to use their service revolver.  Then there is also the simple fact that the profession is not for everyone.  You have to have the right temperament to be a cop and a big component of that is the necessity of extremely thick skin.  You can't lose your temper.  You have to maintain your cool and use PROPORTIONAL force.  Cops are prone to human error just like the rest of us and, although they are given more of the benefit of the doubt when mistakes are made, they are not immune from consequences for horrible decisions.

 

The general tone of your comment can be applied to many professions.  Nobody likes a prick lawyer, but everyone wants THEIR lawyer to be a prick.  Politicians are all scum, unless we are talking about the few you actually voted for.  Firefighters are overpaid and lazy..... until they run into your burning house and resuscitate your kid.

 

You are 100% correct that the profession is not for everyone.  The "cowboys" are usually weeded out within a few years and in this case, the officer was just given an award for going above and beyond.  That alone signifies he doesn't belong in the bad cop grouping.  I'd like to change my previous statement doubt cops NEVER wanting to shoot people, to I've never met a cop that wants to shoot people.

 

Police officers do have to keep their cool and also have thick skin, but utilize the plus one continuum when using force against another.  Meaning, whatever force is being used against them, they have the right to use one step high to eliminate that force or until they gain compliance. 

 

Also, the tone of my statement was supposed to apply to many, if not all professions, because cops are only human.  If the cop made a mistake, it will be shown but doesn't give anyone the right to riot and destroy the community they live in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[ If the cop made a mistake, it will be shown but doesn't give anyone the right to riot and destroy the community they live in.

 

List of mistakes made by the police in the case so far:

1) Putting six shots into an un-armed teen

2) Letting the body of the slain teen lie in the street for 4+ hours

3) Not interviewing eye witnesses at the scene

4) Arresting and tear gassing press

5) Using extraordinary force against protesting citizens

 

The looting accounted for a small percentage of all protest related activities of the few days, and was perpetrated by a small group of people that other protesters have described as 'drunk teens'.  I understand the sentiment of the looters.  They feel that they are living in a society where they can't win, so lashing out seems like the only option they have.  A cop is allowed to kill a 17 yr old kid without consequence, but a group of black kids break a convenience store window and take some Doritos and justice must be served!!!  :roll:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just want to jump in here for a second. I feel like...it's 2014, I know there exists a plethora of non-lethal weapons available today. Maybe someone can help me understand why local peace officers are still using lethal weapons. It doesn't have to be " me or him". I don't understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^Because there are countless circumstances in which a cop needs a lethal weapon, especially in this country with he plethora of firearms held by the citizenry

 

Police officers do have to keep their cool and also have thick skin, but utilize the plus one continuum when using force against another.  Meaning, whatever force is being used against them, they have the right to use one step high to eliminate that force or until they gain compliance. 

 

As can anyone when attacked with physical force.  The difference you might note (and be correct) is that the police have the authority to initiate all sort of situations which, if we did ourselves would cause us to lose that privilege.  And cops never have a duty to retreat either.  Of course, the officer loses those privileges too if he doesn't execute his authority lawfully.  The concept of 'proportional force' contemplates a sphere of options, always inclusive of whatever is necessary to eliminate the threat.

 

If the cop made a mistake, it will be shown but doesn't give anyone the right to riot and destroy the community they live in.

 

Does anything?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"One time, for instance, my partner and I faced a belligerent man who had doused his car with gallons of gas and was about to create a firebomb at a busy mall filled with holiday shoppers. The potential for serious harm to the bystanders would have justified deadly force."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  A cop is allowed to kill a 17 yr old kid without consequence, but a group of black kids break a convenience store window and take some Doritos and justice must be served!!!  :roll:

 

OK it's a little more than that...  the gas station was burned to the ground.  dozens of other buildings have been vandalized, public property including police vehicles destroyed...  police have a responsibility to protect property, both public & private. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  A cop is allowed to kill a 17 yr old kid without consequence, but a group of black kids break a convenience store window and take some Doritos and justice must be served!!!  :roll:

 

OK it's a little more than that...  the gas station was burned to the ground.  dozens of other buildings have been vandalized, public property including police vehicles destroyed...  police have a responsibility to protect property, both public & private. 

 

Every encounter has its own separate proportionality standard, though.  You can't just call all of Ferguson one situation and say that because x level of force was OK against looters and rioters, that the same level of force is/was also OK a mile away against crowds that are just walking around and glaring at you.  "He looked at me funny" is not cause to reach for your nightstick or handcuffs, let alone a lethal weapon (or a sound blaster or tear gas).  In particular, the intimidation and force against journalists is over the line.  If you have the right to point your gun at them, they have the right to point their camera at you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's sad how much people hate cops when something goes bad, yet love them when they're there to save the day for you personally.  No one is perfect at their job, yet we all expect cops to do their job with 100% accuracy.  No one wants to see this happen and cops NEVER want to shoot people.  The only time shots are fired are when it's my life versus yours. 

 

Fair points. However I think it's this that feeds the large well of resentment toward the police. It's not about staying perfect at your job; every day there are countless stories of police misconduct (sorry the wiki link but it is more eloquent than I am).

 

Police culture

Police culture or “cop culture," as it is sometimes called by police officers, has resulted in a barrier against stopping corrupt officers. Police culture involves a set of values and rules that have evolved through the experiences of officers and which are affected by the environment in which they work. From the beginning of their career at their academies, police are brought into this “cop culture."

 

While learning jobs and duties, recruits will also learn the values needed to make it to a high rank in their organization. Some words used to describe these values are as follows: a sense of mission, action, cynicism, pessimism, machismo, suspicion, conservatism, isolation and solidarity. The unique demands that are placed on police officers, such as the threat of danger, as well as scrutiny by the public, generate a tightly woven environment conducive to the development of feelings of loyalty.

 

These values are claimed to lead to the code; isolation and solidarity leading to police officers sticking to their own kind, producing an us-against-them mentality. The us-against-them mentality that can result leads to officers backing each other up and staying loyal to one another; in some situations it leads to not “ratting” on fellow officers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From several accounts, there are agitators on both sides of the standoff.  The extreme minority on both sides, for sure, but agitators nonetheless.  Some have even went so far as to claim that there are "plants" among the protesters put there with the specific intent of stirring up the more susceptible gatherers.  That's a little too conspiracy theory for me, but it is not completely out of the realm of possibility I suppose.  On the police's side, there are reportedly some cops who are egging on the protesters, very slyly and subtlety.  It is not a situation which brings out the best in people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you have the right to point your gun at them, they have the right to point their camera at you.

 

Indeed.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From several accounts, there are agitators on both sides of the standoff.  The extreme minority on both sides, for sure, but agitators nonetheless.  Some have even went so far as to claim that there are "plants" among the protesters put there with the specific intent of stirring up the more susceptible gatherers.  That's a little too conspiracy theory for me, but it is not completely out of the realm of possibility I suppose. 

From several accounts, there are agitators on both sides of the standoff.  The extreme minority on both sides, for sure, but agitators nonetheless.  Some have even went so far as to claim that there are "plants" among the protesters put there with the specific intent of stirring up the more susceptible gatherers.  That's a little too conspiracy theory for me, but it is not completely out of the realm of possibility I suppose. 

False flag. If you want to discredit any peaceful protest, you get one of them to kick in a store window. It makes sense. I suspect if this was ever a possibility it was during the World Bank protests a few years back, where protesters were pleading with people not to commit any violent or damaging acts. Very difficult to prove, especially when there are fringe idiots in any crowd - as mentioned above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have the right to point your gun at them, they have the right to point their camera at you.

 

Indeed.

 

Except the reporters arrested in the McDonalds did not have guns pointed at them.  They were being told to clear out for their own safety. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^That's only 2 of the (at least) 11 reporters that have been arrested.  But all of them were arrested under the premise that they failed to obey a lawful order.  The question arises in this circumstance about whether the police's orders were lawful.

 

Aren't you the one always posting stuff advocating for freedom of the press?  Weird that in this circumstance your tune has changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...