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Police Use of Force

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2 hours ago, richNcincy said:

Domestic violence is not a universal standard for anything being discussed here. 

 

So some domestic abusers still make good cops?


Very Stable Genius

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That could theoretically be possible.  One can be a good cop, but an awful husband or father or person.  That said, those prone to violence are likely to be prone to violence in a variety of circumstances.

 

Police officers aren't selected at random out of the population, they're a self selecting group.  So it isn't particularly shocking that people that decide to go into a field of work where violent confrontation is a constant possibility might be more likely to perpetuate it in other aspects of their lives.  Even if they didn't start out that way, I would imagine untreated PTSD is rampant amongst police officers.

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7 hours ago, X said:

I would imagine untreated PTSD is rampant amongst police officers.

 

There are some departments that only hire ex-military.  

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11 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

So some domestic abusers still make good cops?

I don't think I'm qualified to make that determination, and neither are you.

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1 minute ago, Cleburger said:

 

There are some departments that only hire ex-military.  

It's extremely hard to hire quality people for policing jobs.  The pay is not particularly good, people either love you or hate you, oh and you are risking your life.  

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21 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

I don't think I'm qualified to make that determination, and neither are you.

 

But you are qualified to say...?

 

22 hours ago, richNcincy said:

Let's just remember, there are FAR more good police officers than bad.  It's the few that make the rest look bad, which is a shame. 

 


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8 hours ago, X said:

That could theoretically be possible.  One can be a good cop, but an awful husband or father or person.  That said, those prone to violence are likely to be prone to violence in a variety of circumstances.

 

Police officers aren't selected at random out of the population, they're a self selecting group.  So it isn't particularly shocking that people that decide to go into a field of work where violent confrontation is a constant possibility might be more likely to perpetuate it in other aspects of their lives.  Even if they didn't start out that way, I would imagine untreated PTSD is rampant amongst police officers.

 

Yes, it's very tough and I don't think we do enough for officers in dealing with PTSD or PTSD-like symptoms from being on the job.

 

Cross-posting from another thread:

Quote

Since we've been in quarantine, we've been checking out the full library of Netflix shows.  We came across "100 Humans" which is really not that great of a show, imo.  But anyway, as it relates to this thread, they did some quirky "experiments" to test biases among their random sampling of 100 Humans.  I can't remember how many participated, but they told them they were testing reaction times and gave them a toy gun in a video-game like setting.  They were in a warehouse and they had a big SUV and some barrels, etc. scattered about - think the Men in Black test, actually.  Then, various sets of "good guys" with cell phones would appear and "bad guys" with guns would also sneak out from behind barriers.  They were supposed to "shoot" the bad guys and spare the good guys.  Eventually, they get to the point where two guys jump out simultaneously - one good, one bad.  The good guy is black with a cell phone and the white guy is bad with a gun.  Universally, they ended up shooting the "good" black guy.  Not only that, he was one of the guys working on the show who they saw every day.  Across gender, racial, religious, political lines...didn't matter.  They all ended up shooting the black guy when faced with a bad/white guy vs. a black/good guy they knew!

 

As it relates to police shootings of minorities...I am still stuck wondering whether it's an issue of a "few bad apples," police being more prone to violence because they know they are going to be protected regardless, police attracting individuals with violent (or even slightly racist) tendencies, or if it's a built-in society-wide bias.  I think the society-wide bias certainly plays a part.  We've dehumanized minorities - especially black folks - for so long.  That makes it easier to shoot a black guy who's simply running away or holding a cell phone in a backyard.


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7 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

It's extremely hard to hire quality people for policing jobs.  The pay is not particularly good, people either love you or hate you, oh and you are risking your life.  

 

It's made even harder when good people don't bother applying because they never served in the Marines and they know that a department only hires ex-Marines.  

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2 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

Yes.

 

Lol ok.  Good talk.  You're qualified to make sweeping determinations about the entire police force in this country but neither of us are qualified to say that the apparently 40% of cops who engage in domestic abuse aren't good cops.


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1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

 

It's made even harder when good people don't bother applying because they never served in the Marines and they know that a department only hires ex-Marines.  

 

This seems like a smaller-town thing. Like Stryker gets to have this rule since being a cop is one of the few jobs in town besides the bar or middle school but I can't see a larger department getting enough people this way.

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1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

 

This seems like a smaller-town thing. Like Stryker gets to have this rule since being a cop is one of the few jobs in town besides the bar or middle school but I can't see a larger department getting enough people this way.

Yes many suburban departments are this way.  Just look at what's on the chief's resume and it will tell you a lot.   Independence OH is notoriously all marines, and their haircuts reflect it.  

 

In towns like Cleveland, it's more union graft than military service.   But many of the guys who go in are military wannabes and volunteer for SWAT duty etc so they can dress up like Navy SEALS.  

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4 hours ago, richNcincy said:

It's extremely hard to hire quality people for policing jobs.  The pay is not particularly good, people either love you or hate you, oh and you are risking your life.  

 

Agree. These are prime reasons we need across the board 1. much better pay and 2. much better hiring and training standards for police. 

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4 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

It's made even harder when good people don't bother applying because they never served in the Marines and they know that a department only hires ex-Marines.  

 

Right, I always thought it was strange that departments confer significantly more value on military service vs. a college degree.  

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Do they? I thought they just wound up with a lot more military applicants than 4-year-degreed ones. It's public sector; they should like degrees.

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28 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

Do they? I thought they just wound up with a lot more military applicants than 4-year-degreed ones. It's public sector; they should like degrees.

 

This is Austin, TX but the civil service exam scoring they use appears somewhat similar to other departments:

 

Military Veteran (with honorable discharge per DD214): 5 points added

Associate's degree or 60+ hours of college credit from accredited college: 1 point added

Bachelor's degree from accredited college or university: 3 points added

Resident of Fort Worth for six months or more at time of written examination: 2 points added

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5 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

This is Austin, TX but the civil service exam scoring they use appears somewhat similar to other departments:

 

Military Veteran (with honorable discharge per DD214): 5 points added

Associate's degree or 60+ hours of college credit from accredited college: 1 point added

Bachelor's degree from accredited college or university: 3 points added

Resident of Fort Worth for six months or more at time of written examination: 2 points added

 

I'm sure in a big city department some military service is desirable as the recruits would have some experience with chain of command, duty and order.  

 

It's the smaller department where Sgt Hulka is the chief and only hires gung-ho jarheads because he was one that are the problem.  

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"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Just the facts – 2019 Police state for the entire US

·         10 million arrests

·         1,004 fatal shootings

·         41 of the 1,004 were unarmed

o   19 white

o   9 black

·         89 cops were killed

·         82 people were shot in Chicago last week.

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I dont understand why police reform has to be so complicated. 

 

Lets start by mandating bachelor's degrees for all police, with sociology and minority culture courses as part of the curriculum.  That should be a no brainer.  There are thousands and thousands of wonderful policemen and women out there who have dignity and fulfill their duty to protect.  But how many police are out there that are people that didnt consider it their life meaning to protect citizens and thus they just kind of entered law enforcement?  How many are going into the profession because its maybe an easier path to a career and they get to accumulate some power? and they are perhaps angry other plans didnt pan out?  I think that certainly exists.  And when you have power and you are angry, thats a dangerous combination (see President 45).  So if we push our police force to accumulate more education... academically, socially and emotionally ...thats an absolute great place to start.  

 

Then, once on the police force, there needs to be more forced engagement.  public meetings that are ongoing (weekly? monthly?) that give the police force (those both on duty and off duty) more touchpoints with the public...the public can give positive and negative feedback and they can build a relationship.  Police can give their voice as well.  What concerns them, where they need to work with the public to overcome it.    If i was a Cleveland Policeman, i would have a weekly thing i do, where i go buy a very large lunch takeout order and just go find a random group of neighbors that are congregating and sit down and eat with them, talk with them and let them know im thinking about them.  Small stuff goes a long way. 

 

I certainly dont have answers, but my gosh, have we done ANYTHING in Cleveland since Tamir Rice? Maybe the answer is yes, but i certainly havent heard about it.  

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10 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said:

I dont understand why police reform has to be so complicated. 

 

 

It is complicated because police enjoy the power that they have. They are not gonna give it up without a fight.

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https://www.zmescience.com/science/research-stopping-police-violence-0523/

 

Quote

The Use of Force Project employed more than 30 years of research and record-keeping to track the use of force by the U.S.’s 100 biggest police departments.

There’s a great deal of variation in the degree of force encouraged or frowned upon, resulting in “wide variation in rates of police killings.”

 

The analysis looked at eight key policies meant to reduce police violence:

-Require officers to de-escalate situations, when possible, before using force.

-Use a Force Continuum or Matrix that define/limit the types of force and specific weapons that can be used to respond to specific levels of resistance.

-Restrict chokeholds and strangleholds (including carotid restraints) to situations where deadly force is authorized or prohibiting them altogether.

-Require officers to give a verbal warning, when possible, before using deadly force.

-Prohibit officers from shooting at people in moving vehicles unless the person poses a deadly threat by means other than the vehicle (for example, shooting at people from the vehicle).

-Require officers to exhaust all other reasonable alternatives before resorting to using deadly force.

-Require officers to intervene to stop another officer from using excessive force.

-Require officers to report both uses of force and threats/attempted uses of force (for example, reporting instances where an officer intentionally points a firearm at a civilian)

 

According to researchers affiliated with the Use of Force Project, for each of the 8 policies examined, police departments that had implemented the policy were less likely to kill people than police departments that had not.

 

Specifically, each additional use of force policy was associated with a 15% reduction in killings by police.

 

Call your city council members and mayors and demand they adopt some/all of the above eight measures for the police force.


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19 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said:

I dont understand why police reform has to be so complicated. 

 

Lets start by mandating bachelor's degrees for all police, with sociology and minority culture courses as part of the curriculum.  That should be a no brainer.  There are thousands and thousands of wonderful policemen and women out there who have dignity and fulfill their duty to protect.  But how many police are out there that are people that didnt consider it their life meaning to protect citizens and thus they just kind of entered law enforcement?  How many are going into the profession because its maybe an easier path to a career and they get to accumulate some power? and they are perhaps angry other plans didnt pan out?  I think that certainly exists.  And when you have power and you are angry, thats a dangerous combination (see President 45).  So if we push our police force to accumulate more education... academically, socially and emotionally ...thats an absolute great place to start.  

 

Then, once on the police force, there needs to be more forced engagement.  public meetings that are ongoing (weekly? monthly?) that give the police force (those both on duty and off duty) more touchpoints with the public...the public can give positive and negative feedback and they can build a relationship.  Police can give their voice as well.  What concerns them, where they need to work with the public to overcome it.    If i was a Cleveland Policeman, i would have a weekly thing i do, where i go buy a very large lunch takeout order and just go find a random group of neighbors that are congregating and sit down and eat with them, talk with them and let them know im thinking about them.  Small stuff goes a long way. 

 

I certainly dont have answers, but my gosh, have we done ANYTHING in Cleveland since Tamir Rice? Maybe the answer is yes, but i certainly havent heard about it.  

 

Much of this has been tried in the past and like most things in American government, no one wants to pay for it.   Years ago every big city had foot beats, mini stations and other ways to get cops out of their cars and into the communities.  But in the name of lower taxes combined with government inefficiencies and shrinking tax bases, one by one these programs have gone away.   

 

As a response, the cops have become more disconnected with the community, and retreat inside their protective "brotherhood" to defend themselves.   This has made them more secretive and militarized.   Remember when police cars used to be high visibility?   Now they are all blacked-out stealth war machines.   

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Policemen used to be the "boys in blue" now they're dressed in black, head to toe.  In a lot of European countries, they're in neon as are their cars.

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To truly reform the police we need to 

- end qualified immunity

- reduce the power or eliminate wholly police unions

- eliminate the military surplus program

- stop using the reasonable officer standard

 

If you do that change will actually be able to take root, and you can implement the other policies mentioned above.

Edited by Enginerd

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1 hour ago, X said:

Policemen used to be the "boys in blue" now they're dressed in black, head to toe.  In a lot of European countries, they're in neon as are their cars.

 

Or military fatigues...woodland camo in American cities.  SMH 

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14 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

^Your last one, sadly, would require overturning a precedent set by SCOTUS.

To be considered an unconstitutional use of force yes. But there is no reason states can’t pass laws making it an illegal use of force.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

 

Last year police in Germany killed 17 people*. If Germany had the same population as the USA, we'd expect them to have 67 killings per year.

In the US last year 1,004 people were shot and killed by the police. And that's not only a racism problem. About 55% of the US population in the age range most likely to be shot by police (teenagers to mid 40s) is white. So if police were killing white people at the German rate in the USA we'd expect about 37 fatal police shootings of white people per year. There were actually 370 (10x as high), not considering the 20% of cases where the race of the victim is unknown. Or course there also is a racism problem. People who self identify as black are about 15% of the population in that age range** so if shot by police at the German rate, we'd expect 10 shootings per year and instead there were 235 black people (23.5x as high) who were killed by police in 2019.

If police in the US shot black people at the same rate they shot white people roughly 135 fewer people would die.

If the police in the US shot people, regardless of race, at the same rate that police in Germany shot people 937 fewer people would die.

*But this includes people who died in custody in circumstances that probably wouldn't be counted in the USA since our statistic is specifically shot and killed, as well as one police officer accidentally shooting and killing another.

**I suspect there may be some bias here as many Americans today identify as mixed or multiracial, but in the reports on police shootings this category doesn't exist. Do those folks end up in the unknown category? Or does someone look at your body after you die and check a box? If so a lot of people who self identify as mixed.

 

Just picking out Germany as an example in a writeup I saw elsewhere comparing Germany to the U.S.


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4 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

To be considered an unconstitutional use of force yes. But there is no reason states can’t pass laws making it an illegal use of force.

 

Have a feeling that "state rights" would be overturned here for some reason lol


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1 hour ago, X said:

Policemen used to be the "boys in blue" now they're dressed in black, head to toe.  In a lot of European countries, they're in neon as are their cars.

 

 

 

That's why the Black Sabbath song "Neon Knights" makes no sense to Americans:

 

 

 

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On 5/14/2020 at 9:23 AM, richNcincy said:

It's extremely hard to hire quality people for policing jobs.  The pay is not particularly good, people either love you or hate you, oh and you are risking your life.  

The risking your life thing is such an exaggeration. Law enforcement is not even in the top 20 most dangerous in America. Furthermore, a close friend of mine who is a police sergeant in a suburban community in Cuyahoga county has told me he is pushing his dept to get rid of "bonus points" for military service and push to hire more cops with degrees. There are more people with degrees willing to do the job than many think. It is also a fairly well compensated career when taking into consideration the pension that they have. This is information I get from cops first hand.

 

https://www.ishn.com/articles/110496-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-us-the-top-20

 

Edited by freefourur

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^ i've hears that they are Bureau of Prisons "special forces." So technically DOJ. I assume Billy "fascist" Barr sent them.

 

More info:

 

 

Edited by freefourur

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5 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

https://www.zmescience.com/science/research-stopping-police-violence-0523/

 

 

Call your city council members and mayors and demand they adopt some/all of the above eight measures for the police force.

 

https://8cantwait.org/

 

Now a convenient database exists.  If you live in one of the hundreds of cities on the site, check out what policies your police department is following.  Links are available to reach out to your mayor or sheriff's office if you want to request they add more of these policies.


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Video captures police officer in Florida kneeling on a black man's neck during an arrest

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/04/us/sarasota-florida-police-kneeling-neck-arrest/index.html

 

Why do they do this when they know it is not a valid procedure and can kill people?

 

*I cannot stand CNN's messy website

 

Edited by Toddguy

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14 minutes ago, richNcincy said:

In most all municipalities, jail guards are not police officers. They do not receive the same training. 

 

Ok?  Have any comment about the inmate who died after he was pepper sprayed *in his cell?*


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