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Cleveland: Downtown: Stark's nuCLEus

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If you don't have sufficient quantities of modern, competitive office, residential and retail spaces, you lose to the places that do. If the city is at least coming out even in these incentives, then it's worth doing. It might even be worth doing if the city, in the short term, takes a small loss on its tax revenues. Cities aren't businesses. They exist to raise the quality of life of its citizens. If they have revenues to do so, I'm all for it.

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Excellent point. The city does have a seat at the table in how this project proceeds even more so if they are willing to put money towards the project to get it going.  

I think cities are taking a much more proactive part in downtown development projects, otherwise the city goes backwards. Cleveland doesn’t have to look far back in time to see what neglect looks like. 

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2 hours ago, simplythis said:

KJP: Anybody have any idea how Senate bill 39 is doing?  I've heard they had 2 hearings

 

It's still in Finance Committee. It will have an impact on the state budget, and this year is when the state's two-year general revenue fund budget is set. So the impact of SB39 on the budget will determine whether it moves before the budget does. And a budget has to be passed by the end of June.


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Heard a rumor that a Fox Sports Grill (their competition to the ESPN Zone) is going to be part of nuCLEus. If true, that's OK with me. I think ESPN hates Cleveland.

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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2 hours ago, KJP said:

Heard a rumor that a Fox Sports Grill (their competition to the ESPN Zone) is going to be part of nuCLEus. If true, that's OK with me. I think ESPN hates Cleveland.

did cleveland live back out as an anchor..??

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looked up everything I could find on FOX sports grill...    does not look as exciting as cleveland live or ESPN zone...  maybe this one will be bigger...

 

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FOX sports grill probably will face the same demise that the ESPN Zones have,  and probably before Nucleus even opens

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Fox Sports Grill makes sense because the owner is a graduate of BGSU. That said, I don’t see how that’s replacing Cordish’s Live concept. The Live concept is a multi tenant venue. That part might be dead but I don’t think it’s comparable except for the fact that many Live locations included an ESPN Zone or a similar sports bar. 

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The headline is obnoxious, as expected, but there’s good content in this new article including an interview with Ezra Stark.  The thing that jumped out at me is that they are planning to sell condos in this project. I know there are many forumers who will be excited to see that. 

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/cleveland-is-prepared-to-hand-over-a-12-million-loan-to-the-nucleus-project/Content?oid=30501801&utm_source=feature&utm_medium=home&utm_campaign=hpfeatures&utm_content=HomeTopFeature

 

 

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^ yeah condo talk is good to hear.

 

those immediate comments tho -- yikes.

 

you would almost think people are paid to bash anything and everything.

 

funny how no complainer ever mentions the alternative, doing nothing lol.

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4 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ yeah condo talk is good to hear.

 

those immediate comments tho -- yikes.

 

you would almost think people are paid to bash anything and everything.

 

funny how no complainer ever mentions the alternative, doing nothing lol.

Forget the comment section of a written article.  If you are really into mindless babble simply attend a city council meeting or planning commission meeting of any city where a development project is being discussed.

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I really wanted the ultra-bold original design but, sure, I can live with the scaled-down version.  Now let's get a sign up, so the world can see something new and dramatic has been planned and will soon come about, and start seriously planning for the groundbreaking!

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18 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

The headline is obnoxious, as expected, but there’s good content in this new article including an interview with Ezra Stark.  The thing that jumped out at me is that they are planning to sell condos in this project. I know there are many forumers who will be excited to see that. 

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/cleveland-is-prepared-to-hand-over-a-12-million-loan-to-the-nucleus-project/Content?oid=30501801&utm_source=feature&utm_medium=home&utm_campaign=hpfeatures&utm_content=HomeTopFeature

 

 

Sam Allard thinks his snark is so clever and e d g y, it's frankly unreadable. Blah, I hope Cleveland's alt newspaper scene graduates from him soon.

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Allard gets a lot of hate, but I'd rather have somebody bringing to light how these projects are financed. The other outlets haven't covered it whatsoever. Now if you want to debate the merits of the subsidy I'm all for that.

 

Edited by Mendo
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20 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

The headline is obnoxious, as expected, but there’s good content in this new article including an interview with Ezra Stark.  The thing that jumped out at me is that they are planning to sell condos in this project. I know there are many forumers who will be excited to see that. 

 

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/cleveland-is-prepared-to-hand-over-a-12-million-loan-to-the-nucleus-project/Content?oid=30501801&utm_source=feature&utm_medium=home&utm_campaign=hpfeatures&utm_content=HomeTopFeature

 

 

 

The same writer authored an article just a few weeks earlier with the strikingly similar headline 'Cleveland's Proposed $12 Million "Investment" in nuCLEus Looks Like a Plain Old Corporate Handout.'

 

Oh boy.

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2 hours ago, Mendo said:

Allard gets a lot of hate, but I'd rather have somebody bringing to light how these projects are financed. The other outlets haven't covered it whatsoever. Now if you want to debate the merits of the subsidy I'm all for that.

 

 

I agree. But he always needs to prove to everyone that he’s some sort of unique rebel, and it comes off whiny

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Sam Allard is a product of his upbringing. I went to school with his brother and have met him before. He grew up in Cleveland in Ohio City before it was cool. His opinions reflect that reality. His issue is he makes everything personal, whether he's right or not. Frankly, it makes him a bad writer in some regards. He tries too hard to make points that aren't there for the sake of furthering his opinion on how his neighborhood and city have changed and how he doesn't like it. 

Edited by KFM44107
Grammar mistake
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At a nuCLEus leasing meeting in the past week, Stark reportedly told those in attendance that he plans to break ground in July.

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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On 5/17/2019 at 7:09 PM, KFM44107 said:

Sam Allard is a product of his upbringing. I went to school with his brother and have met him before. He grew up in Cleveland in Ohio City before it was cool. His opinions reflect that reality. His issue is he makes everything personal, whether he's right or not. Frankly, it makes him a bad writer in some regards. He tries too hard to make points that aren't there for the sake of furthering his opinion on how his neighborhood and city have changed and how he doesn't like it. 

What was his upbringing?  Allard looks to be all of about 30 and he's a native Ohio City resident, grew up there, and ended up with a degree from Northwestern?  From what I can see, this guy, if he actually grew up in Ohio City, was part of the ''cool'' scene.

 

I was born in Ohio City and can tell you, Allard's not the average native Ohio City folk from ''before it was cool'' Ohio City.  

 

Allard is a wanna be muckraker, a Cleveland tradition that includes class (''rich people'' by CLE standards) and race.  Allard just doesn't come across as a product of working class Ohio City, especially ''before it was cool''.  Can't see this guy legitimately objecting to people with degrees from Northwestern moving into Ohio City.

Edited by Oxford19
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21 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

What was his upbringing?  Allard looks to be all of about 30 and he's a native Ohio City resident, grew up there, and ended up with a degree from Northwestern?  From what I can see, this guy, if he actually grew up in Ohio City, was part of the ''cool'' scene.

 

I was born in Ohio City and can tell you, Allard's not the average native Ohio City folk from ''before it was cool'' Ohio City.  

 

Allard is a wanna be muckraker, a Cleveland tradition that includes class (''rich people'' by CLE standards) and race.  Allard just doesn't come across as a product of working class Ohio City, especially ''before it was cool''.  Can't see this guy legitimately objecting to people with degrees from Northwestern moving into Ohio City.

Oh I don't disagree. I think you mistook my comment for me being supportive of him. Im not. Im merely telling you why he is the way he is. I can tell you for sure he comes from working class Ohio City family. I assume he has massive student loans or had a major scholarship to NW. He was a real good student. 

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Just now, TPH2 said:

I thought this was the nuCLEus thread, not the psychoanalyzing of Sam Allard thread.

Well, Allard wrote a hit piece on nuCLEus which was brought into this thread and with Cleveland's history of negativity and decline, I think it's all quite relevant to know and expose this guy as he crusades against nuCLEus.  Reminder that nuCLEus 

 

Allard should be psychoanalyzed as he's a hypocrite trying to continue playing race and class games, all a part of Cleveland's decline cocktail.

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Just now, KFM44107 said:

Oh I don't disagree. I think you mistook my comment for me being supportive of him. Im not. Im merely telling you why he is the way he is. I can tell you for sure he comes from working class Ohio City family. I assume he has massive student loans or had a major scholarship to NW. He was a real good student. 

Wasn't directly questioning you.  Different era of working class Ohio City then.

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1 minute ago, Oxford19 said:

Well, Allard wrote a hit piece on nuCLEus which was brought into this thread and with Cleveland's history of negativity and decline, I think it's all quite relevant to know and expose this guy as he crusades against nuCLEus.  Reminder that nuCLEus 

 

Allard should be psychoanalyzed as he's a hypocrite trying to continue playing race and class games, all a part of Cleveland's decline cocktail.

 

Oh, come on. There were many substantive points in Allard's piece that warrant discussion, imo, but Allard's personal upbringing is irrelevant to this discussion.

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26 minutes ago, TPH2 said:

 

Oh, come on. There were many substantive points in Allard's piece that warrant discussion, imo, but Allard's personal upbringing is irrelevant to this discussion.

I didn't bring up his upbringing...but it's not irrelevant.

 

The whole tone of the headline and, as Allard said, the ''exaspirating name nuCLEus'' says it all.  It doesn't sound like anyone is in for an unbiased journalism story.

 

Regardless, Allard uses the usual and cliche general and ''abstract'' speculation points. 

 

As Stark said, ''we're not Dubai''...we weren't in 1988 either when Society Center was proposed. Btw, aren't we all glad that controversial project went forward?

Edited by Oxford19
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18 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

It doesn't sound like anyone is in for an unbiased journalism.

 

You expected unbiased journalism?

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I remember wanting a rapid station stop along below Ontario rail-bed when Gateway was announced and moving forward, with a tunnel to a portal at say E 4/Huron.   Isn't there already a subway tunnel there?

 

Especially now as the neighborhood  booms and has moved to include nuCLEus and East 4th.

 

At least something announcing the existence of a rail system would be in place for direct street access.

Edited by Oxford19
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We have a media thread if you want to discuss specific outlets and/or reporters.

 

Anything about NuCLEus from the article is germane to be discussed in this thread, everything else is should go into the media conversation.

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So I read the Scene article and I'm a little confused.  Tell me if the following is an accurate TL;DR summary--

 

A key element of Nucleus's financing package is a $12M loan from the City of Cleveland to Stark.  Stark will repay the city with $13.2 million in new property tax revenue generated by Nucleus, "guaranteeing" the city a 10 percent ROI.  Somehow this is different from the TIF plan also in place for the project.  Cleveland schools will be unaffected and receive a full protion of the property tax revenue generated by Nucleus.

 

Opponents of the project believe that the $13.2 million in property taxes mentioned above should go to the city free and clear of any loan commitments.  However (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that $13.2M exists if and only if Nucleus goes forward (the surface parking lot currently occupying the site ain't gonna raise that kind of cash).  So if all goes as planned, the city collects an extra $1.2M in property taxes over a specified period and also benefits from a $350M+ mixed use project smack dab in its CBD.   Plus a new stream of income and sales taxes from the increased economic activity associated with the project.  Under the status quo, Cleveland collects nothing more than what they are already receiving.

 

All things considered, it seems like part of the cost of doing business in a major urban area.  My understanding is that the subsidies involved here are not direct handouts but rather splitting a larger pie that the developer helped create.  Not to get too political, but kind of like the Amazon project in NYC.  Except Stark isn't Jeff Bezos and the City of Cleveland could probably use the development more than New York City.  Again, I may have some of the details wrong, so please feel free to let me know if there's more going on than meets the eye here.

Edited by Down_with_Ctown
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No, I think that summarizes it pretty well.


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Bottom line is that property taxes are too high (rate) because the tax base is too small.  If the tax base was double what it is now (that is where it would be if we had a growing economy for the last 30 years) then the tax rates would be lower and tax breaks wouldn't be necessary.

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1 hour ago, Down_with_Ctown said:

So I read the Scene article and I'm a little confused.  Tell me if the following is an accurate TL;DR summary--

 

A key element of Nucleus's financing package is a $12M loan from the City of Cleveland to Stark.  Stark will repay the city with $13.2 million in new property tax revenue generated by Nucleus, "guaranteeing" the city a 10 percent ROI.  Somehow this is different from the TIF plan also in place for the project.  Cleveland schools will be unaffected and receive a full protion of the property tax revenue generated by Nucleus.

 

Opponents of the project believe that the $13.2 million in property taxes mentioned above should go to the city free and clear of any loan commitments.  However (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that $13.2M exists if and only if Nucleus goes forward (the surface parking lot currently occupying the site ain't gonna raise that kind of cash).  So if all goes as planned, the city collects an extra $1.2M in property taxes over a specified period and also benefits from a $350M+ mixed use project smack dab in its CBD.   Plus a new stream of income and sales taxes from the increased economic activity associated with the project.  Under the status quo, Cleveland collects nothing more than what they are already receiving.

 

All things considered, it seems like part of the cost of doing business in a major urban area.  My understanding is that the subsidies involved here are not direct handouts but rather splitting a larger pie that the developer helped create.  Not to get too political, but kind of like the Amazon project in NYC.  Except Stark isn't Jeff Bezos and the City of Cleveland could probably use the development more than New York City.  Again, I may have some of the details wrong, so please feel free to let me know if there's more going on than meets the eye here.

 

I don't think this is quite right. And I'm guessing it is a bit more generous than most tax subsidy packages, including the Amazon one.  Without coming down on one side or another on the merits of the deal, the the spin from the city is a little misleading.

 

Here are what I understand to be the main pieces of the deal:

  • The residential portion of the project is getting the standard property tax abatement on all additional assessed value
  • The TIF will essentially re-direct the city's portion of property taxes generated from the non-residential portion of the development back into the project
  • The city will collect all income, sales taxes and parking taxes, per normal
  • The city is making a $12M "loan" that is really a grant

So the city will be collecting zero property taxes. And the "new" stream of income, sales, and parking taxes is what the developer is guaranteeing will be at least $13.2M over 20 years (I don't know if that's present value or nominal value), and is being almost completley offset by the $12M "loan."   And, much of the income tax being collected here won't really be "new," but really just relocated from other downtown buildings.  We don't really know yet what net new jobs this will be bring downtown (i.e., who will fill Benesch's space at 200 Public Square, etc.) or if they'll be enough to offset the voids left in other buildings. And the commercial portions of NuCLEus are likely to consume city services, especially police, fire and EMS, so it's not costless to the city to serve more development.  The spin that the city is "investing" $12M to get $13.2M is pretty hollow, and in any case, a net fiscal benefit of $1.2M over 20 years is sort of pathetic. 

 

But I do think the schools will be collecting their share of the property taxes on the non-residential portion, which is significant, and it's unlikely the tenants here are going to be consuming a lot of city school resources, so it's all net to the schools. 

 

 

Edited by StapHanger

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5 hours ago, KJP said:

At a nuCLEus leasing meeting in the past week, Stark reportedly told those in attendance that he plans to break ground in July.

Hope so...let's hope we avoid a Beacon start time line.

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4 hours ago, StapHanger said:

 

 

But I do think the schools will be collecting their share of the property taxes on the non-residential portion, which is significant, and it's unlikely the tenants here are going to be consuming a lot of city school resources, so it's all net to the schools. 

 

 

 

This implies that the schools do not get property taxes on the residential portion. Am I reading that correctly? I thought the Cleveland property tax abatements and TIFs typically did not apply to the school’s portion - i.e. school property tax is owed based on the new full value. I thought the original NuCLEus request for school tax TIF was the thing that was unusual.  Am I missing something?

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