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Cleveland: Downtown: nuCLEus

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1 hour ago, GISguy said:

Hmm...better than an empty lot but wow this project has shrunk over the years. BUT if it keeps a business here, and a large one at that, whatever. Like you said @KJP hopefully the parking deck pedestal could be a phase 2 of apts+. 

 

That side next to the q could definitely use some street activation. Speaking of- if the ATT Building ever gets converted this could really be a nifty part of downtown.

 

Edit: thanks for the article, cheers!

 

Edit 2: herold building, yes! I remember the pics from the landmarks commission? Last year, that building looks rough from the inside, but it's not like stark isn't to blame for a lot of the neglect, glad the demo permit got denied, really hoping this part of the project happens! 

IMG_20200415_231110732.jpg

 

 

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42 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Anything that moves this project forward, I’m all for it. (And I really hope Cleveland Live is still part of this project. We need that). @KJP do you know if it’s still part of the project?

 

I don't know. 


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Hopefully we'll see residential, hotel or more office towers on both the south parking pedestal and the east parking pedestal in the future.  Otherwise, this is pretty meh.

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I really like this plan. It is thoughtful and realistic while also laying the groundwork for a future phase. What I like more though is the renovation/rebuilding of the Herold Building. Such a great way to retain and honor the city's history while simultaneously advancing to the next phase. It's very "DC-ish"... but more relevant and transformational. 

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The Herold Building renovation is a huge win.  It's great to salvage that building but this new "One Nucleus," leaves me a bit underwhelmed.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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I like the Herold design so much, (assuming that rendering happens) if I were Stark, that’s where I would want stark enterprises corporate office, huge visibility from the street, in an amazing new modern /salvaged historical building. Seems on brand for a development company.

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Time for the City to get its act together and figure out how to hold virtual planning meetings.    

Edited by Cleburger
typo
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Glad there is still life on this site. The green roof looks nice, and I think that could be a sign of where we could see potential future phases rise above the garages. Even if there isn't substantial elevator capacity for future highrise(s), how hard would it be to punch some thru a concrete parking deck? Probably not very, as long as the decks are being built to properly support the weight of the tower(s). 

 

While at first glance I hated the window designs, once I actually looked at them I loved them. To me, they give a nod to the design of The 9 while being its inverse - light instead of dark, and jutting out instead of caving in.

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1 hour ago, Taller_is_better said:

I like the Herold design so much, (assuming that rendering happens) if I were Stark, that’s where I would want stark enterprises corporate office, huge visibility from the street, in an amazing new modern /salvaged historical building. Seems on brand for a development company.

 

I wonder if the Herold Building is why Stark has reduced the office space in One nuCLEus Place from 400,000 to 340,000 SF? The gross square footage of the expanded Herold Building will be about 60,000 SF.

 

EDIT: I added this reference to the article.

Edited by KJP

"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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13 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I wonder if the Herold Building is why Stark has reduced the office space in One nuCLEus Place from 400,000 to 340,000 SF? The gross square footage of the expanded Herold Building will be about 60,000 SF.

 

EDIT: I added this reference to the article.

@KJP...     I know you re still waiting for a response from Gateway officials, but is it clear that the Herold portion is a go and will be constructed at the same time as the large office building?

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Third time's a charm. Maybe.  Is there any particular reason for having the tower parallel with Huron instead of Prospect?

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Symmetry!  Stark is pulling a "reverse Harbor Bay," (for now) shrinking the project by dropping the apartments and keeping the offices.   Balance is maintained in the spacetime continuum. 

 

Please build the current design now!  We can only imagine what a further shrunken fourth iteration would look like.   

 

On a more serious note, the Herold Building renovation looks fantastic, a melding of old and new that shows off the attractive front of the historic building, while hiding the unfinished side wall. 

Edited by urb-a-saurus
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To me it looks like this project has suffered prolonged ED. And well under a 6 year timespan.

Why do I laugh at such childish things. 😂

Edited by tastybunns
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Gotta say, the Stark rep's comments about Benesch moving to another city is so laughable it makes me question any of their assertions.  Law firms can't pick up sticks and move to another state.  An Ohio lawyer generally cannot practice law in another state unless he goes to the considerable time and expense of being admitted to the bar in the new state.  Jones Days' New York offices are filled with New York lawyers, not Ohio lawyers.  Cleveland firms have offices in other cities not because they've "outgrown" Cleveland and moved their lawyers there, but because other cities (unlike Cleveland) have growing legal markets -- so firms "acquire" local talent in those other markets.  And I guarantee, keeping the back-office in Cleveland is cheaper than moving them to first tier city.  That's why the few national firms in Cleveland keep their back-offices here.

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3 minutes ago, gruver said:

Gotta say, the Stark rep's comments about Benesch moving to another city is so laughable it makes me question any of their assertions.  Law firms can't pick up sticks and move to another state.  An Ohio lawyer generally cannot practice law in another state unless he goes to the considerable time and expense of being admitted to the bar in the new state.  Jones Days' New York offices are filled with New York lawyers, not Ohio lawyers.  Cleveland firms have offices in other cities not because they've "outgrown" Cleveland and moved their lawyers there, but because other cities (unlike Cleveland) have growing legal markets -- so firms "acquire" local talent in those other markets.  And I guarantee, keeping the back-office in Cleveland is cheaper than moving them to first tier city.  That's why the few national firms in Cleveland keep their back-offices here.

 

I think it's slightly misunderstood in re: law firms...

 

Jones Day is still headquartered here, as is Baker Hostetler, meaning their operations are here. However, Jones Day and Squire Patton Boggs both have their managing partner residing in DC, which is a bigger deal than one may think - though, not akin to a "move."

 

Nonetheless, if Benesch was to move its MP to another city, it could likely be assumed that operations could follow. 

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Baker's chairman is now a DC-based lawyer.   All back office operations are in One Cleveland Center, under a recently-signed, long-term lease.

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14 minutes ago, gruver said:

Gotta say, the Stark rep's comments about Benesch moving to another city is so laughable it makes me question any of their assertions.  Law firms can't pick up sticks and move to another state.  An Ohio lawyer generally cannot practice law in another state unless he goes to the considerable time and expense of being admitted to the bar in the new state.  Jones Days' New York offices are filled with New York lawyers, not Ohio lawyers.  Cleveland firms have offices in other cities not because they've "outgrown" Cleveland and moved their lawyers there, but because other cities (unlike Cleveland) have growing legal markets -- so firms "acquire" local talent in those other markets.  And I guarantee, keeping the back-office in Cleveland is cheaper than moving them to first tier city.  That's why the few national firms in Cleveland keep their back-offices here.

To be honest, when I read Ken's article I also found that assertion strange and hyperbolic.  That is not really how the now common phenomenon of multi city/multi international law firms work.

 

And to your point I think it is always smart to question any assertion coming from the Stark firm.

Edited by Htsguy

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So back on the design, I think this is a big win for the city. I strongly disliked the look of the previous Nucleus apartment building. For me, this is addition  by subtraction with the caveat that a Nucleus 2 tower  will aspire more towards the Lumen than Reserve Square. If this PNC style coloration is the actual look, it should provide a much more contemporary “pop” and reflect that other towers’ clean elegance. The new office tower is more subtle, but we still get some interesting lines in the buildings dimensions. Would’ve been sweet to see it extended up to 400 feet but..... I also love the new look/proposal for the Herold Building which apparently is part of the package.  I know it’s been a long frustrating journey but I think Stark got it right on this latest version that should be able to get underway in the short term.  and yes, to echo earlier posters, the planning commission needs to figure out how to get on with their work without thinking they have to do it exactly like they did in the 20th century. 

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It's a shame that this is the culmination of the past five years of exhilaration, propaganda, anticipation and hype; especially when the office component was the portion of the development that lacked government financial support.

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i'm not holding my breath... i will believe it when i see a shovel in the ground.

 

what are we at now, 6+ years of "groundbreaking soon". if i had to bet, i would still bet it does not happen.

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I'd like to watch stories unfold. Some have happy endings; some don't. I don't bet on them as there's always another story.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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I'm going to withhold judgement on the design until I see some better renderings. I'm really curious how the ground level looks now, and if they redesigned the alley. 

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20 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think it's slightly misunderstood in re: law firms...

 

Jones Day is still headquartered here, as is Baker Hostetler, meaning their operations are here. However, Jones Day and Squire Patton Boggs both have their managing partner residing in DC, which is a bigger deal than one may think - though, not akin to a "move."

 

Nonetheless, if Benesch was to move its MP to another city, it could likely be assumed that operations could follow. 

 

This is a good point, and to piggy-back on it, Benesch in Cleveland is growing a lot. Even if Benesch totally closed its Cleveland office (which is not about to happen), most of the lawyers would probably move to (or start) other Cleveland firms as opposed to fleeing the city or state. But you would lose a lot of growth-generating momentum because either (a) those people are now in their own new firms trying to make it work with probably a low appetite for taking on new lawyers, or (b) those people have now filled gaps in other Cleveland law firms. Additionally, the Cleveland lawyers would retain less than 100% of their clients, so some of that revenue would be going either to Benesch Columbus or to some other firm. It would be kind of the same thing from a growth perspective if Benesch moved its "HQ" to a different city. There would just be less momentum in Cleveland both for hiring new people and picking up new clients. There are a whole bunch of D.C., N.Y., and Chicago firms with a bunch of other offices that are partly just cheap labor for the D.C., N.Y., and Chicago clients.

 

All that aside, Benesch's leadership is a bunch of Cleveland people, so I think Stark's statement about keeping Benesch here is 90% marketing baloney. 

Edited by LlamaLawyer

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I think the problem that many of us have with Robert Stark is that he's a showman. He shows off projects long before he has his capital resources available to build them. Most developers I've encountered don't announce their developments until they have no choice to -- when a block club or design-review panel notifies the public that the project is up for review and comment. Sometimes you might hear about it earlier if some unorthodox public financing might be required. But the point is, the developer usually has 90+ percent of their capital stack completed. Bob Stark has a tendency of revealing his proposed projects when he has his presentation finalized and starts winning over a few initial financiers.

 

Bob's son Ezra is different. He isn't a showman. He keeps things a little closer to the vest. Stark Enterprises is more closed off to outsiders looking in than it was compared to when I first met Bob Stark 20 years ago and it's more difficult to discern what they're working on or what their capital stack looks like. That said, it's still more open than some other developers who casual observers might not have ever heard of, let alone who their principals are.

 

A significant number of proposed developments never happen but we never hear about them because their sponsors don't discuss them until pre-development reaches a 90 percent stage of completion. That's doesn't these sponsors are any more or less successful than Stark in delivering projects. But it does mean they're more taciturn.

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Every development in Cleveland goes through the same public process. If a developer chooses to go through design review with some bullcrap pie-in-the-sky project that hasn't a hope in hell of getting built, that's on him. Stark gets crap from UO because he uses that process to gain notoriety and curry favor for public financing, with nothing to show for it but pretty pictures.

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1 hour ago, Mendo said:

Every development in Cleveland goes through the same public process. If a developer chooses to go through design review with some bullcrap pie-in-the-sky project that hasn't a hope in hell of getting built, that's on him. Stark gets crap from UO because he uses that process to gain notoriety and curry favor for public financing, with nothing to show for it but pretty pictures.

 

He didn't get any public financing for any unbuilt projects. Why so angry? Did you do a deal with Stark that went bad?

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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5 minutes ago, KJP said:

He didn't get any public financing for any unbuilt projects. Why so angry? Did you do a deal with Stark that went bad?

 

Didn't say he did. Some developers draw ire with how they do business. Why does it bother you that some don't like it?

 

And lol at the personal jab. No, not a developer.

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Wasn't intended as a jab.

 

All developers and people within development companies approach their work differently. It's part of what makes the show more fun for those of us who don't have anything invested in them.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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It amazes me that the government subsidized portion of the development (residential) is now being scrapped, while the portion that would have benefitted from the postponed TMUD (commercial) is moving forward.

 

It's just whacky!

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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2 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It amazes me that the government subsidized portion of the development (residential) is now being scrapped, while the portion that would have benefitted from the postponed TMUD (commercial) is moving forward.

 

It's just whacky!

 

They found a way to subsidize it....

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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4 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

Do tell...

 

Or at least I think they have. I'm still trying to figure it out how they're doing it.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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15 hours ago, skiwest said:

Would Stark ever do anythng without a subsidy? Unlikely.

 

Whoa....Can any developer afford to build in Cleveland without a subsidy? Of course not.

 

In researching an upcoming article, I found that Greater Cleveland has the 15th-highest construction costs among the top 50 metro areas but has the third-lowest rent. If you can convince the suburbs/exurbs and the developers in those areas to give up their development subsidies, that's the only way projects like nuCLEus will no longer have to be subsidized.

 

EDIT: BTW the costs/rents are for office buildings.

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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As KJP said upthread, Stark is guilty of being a showman and unveiling projects, particularly the original Nucleus, that are just not ready for prime time. He is often critiqued in this Forum - I’m sure at times, fairly.  But he did  produce the first downtown residential high rise in 40 plus years - though that was a 10 year journey.  He now seems to have a 25 story office tower on the verge of construction.  He deserves his props. 

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If tomorrow we found out about a new 25-story office tower in the CBD taking up a surface lot we would be thrilled.   The problem here is setting the bar extremely high, and unrealistically, and then having to lower it, and then lower it again.  Hope this is a lesson for waiting until you have a feasible project to release specs and renderings.  That being said, agree with @CleveFan ... you cant say Stark hasn't done ANYTHING.

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I'll save my props for when this project is actually built. We went from the iconic junga hotel/office/apartment complex to the office/apartment complex to a basic office building.

 

Let's see what comes next.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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Would it not have been possible to do the office and apartment building in two phases? I understand they need to get shovels in the ground asap so Benesch can move in, but why not plan a second phase with apartments for if/when the TMUD gets approved? 

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Maybe I'm missing something, but for the capital stack numbers that @KJP had posted before, it looks like Stark ought to be able to get this done without any public incentives, assuming a $90M reduction in building cost. For private loans, the LTV will have gone down some due to the reduced size, but Stark still has a pretty good chunk of equity. 

 

Also, interest rates are still way down. It always seemed weird to me that if Stark was so close before he wasn't able to wrap everything together when interest rates fell by more than one percent. So.. maybe there is something I am missing. 

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He might be able to. And perhaps I'm reading too much into it. But I found it awfully coincidental that Stark is proposing a roughly 60,000 SF renovation and expansion of the Herold Building into an office building while also shrinking the One nuCLEus Place office building by 60,000 SF to 340,000 SF. There could be a lot of benefits to Stark in shrinking the nuCLEus office building and pushing that 60,000 SF over to the Herold Building site for another phase. There's some complications involved, but if he can pull it off, it will help make both projects more cost-effective.

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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52 minutes ago, freethink said:

Did any of the past owners of the Herold apply for tax credits?  I would assume that is what Stark would do next.

 

No. The previous owner tried to demolish it, the city denied it and a lawsuit followed.


"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Since demolition is prohibited, it looks like Stark is going to build around/over it. Great rendering!

 

I'm just thoroughly disgusted with Nucleus though.

 

It's not even an interesting office building; E&Y Tower has more interesting features. Its just an average, run of the mill office building; new, but no different than any located along East 9th.

It doesn't even distinguish with height.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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^Perhaps they got the primary tenants involved in the building’s architectural design. If the law firm is taking up the bulk of the building I would imagine they would have a bit more say in what it will look like. They probably pushed away from the jenga tower feel and likely wanted a more conservative looking building. 

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22 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Since demolition is prohibited, it looks like Stark is going to build around/over it. Great rendering!

 

I'm just thoroughly disgusted with Nucleus though.

 

It's not even an interesting office building; E&Y Tower has more interesting features. Its just an average, run of the mill office building; new, but no different than any located along East 9th.

It doesn't even distinguish with height.

 

They don't really have a final rendering for Nucleus though. The pictures released are more of a glorified massing. 

Edited by LlamaLawyer
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3 hours ago, audidave said:

They probably pushed away from the jenga tower feel and likely wanted a more conservative looking building.

 

They got their wish.

 

It's a shame for that particular location. It could have been so much more. A wasted opportunity, but then again, social distancing may be here to stay.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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With the unique shape of the parcel, it seems like they could have done something a bit more interesting than a 25 story nondescript box.

Edited by skiwest
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17 hours ago, skiwest said:

With the unique shape of the parcel, it seems like they could have done something a bit more interesting than a 25 story nondescript box.

It's right across the street from RMFH and a block from both PF and E. 4th Street.  So rather than capitalize on the location, you build a 25 story non-descript office building. Seriously?

Granted, it will be the first class A office space since E&Y Tower, but this could have been built anywhere in the CBD. That location is reminiscent of the area around Staples Center in downtown Los Angeles.

Edited by Frmr CLEder
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