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Cleveland: Progressive Field renovations

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I see where you get your love of development/construction from @marty15! Our parents certainly do affect our interests into adulthood.

 

EDIT: already got your rally caps on too, I see. 🙂

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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19 minutes ago, KJP said:

I see where you get your love of development/construction from @marty15! Our parents certainly do affect our interests into adulthood.

 

EDIT: already got your rally caps on too, I see. 🙂

Yeah, @KJP, @marty15‘s dad is my dad too🙂. I’m a 16 yr old hs junior-to-be in the pic looking out at the scoreboard and TT; 4 yrs at JCU couldn’t ultimately keep me from the building trades even if it was the carpenters and not my dad’s pipe fitter union....best decision I ever made.

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On 10/31/2019 at 9:27 AM, marty15 said:

My Dad gave my brothers and I some tours of “Gateway” Stadium back in 93 when he was running work there. #tbt

764ECF3B-71B7-48C5-AC74-D469DA6E9F72.jpeg

 

 

This brings back so many memories as my SOHIO bldg. office had unobstructed views of the construction.  Also, think how much downtown has changed.  I do at this point in time, wish that the Central Market could have been rebuilt smaller for downtown residents.  Imagine having a central market today located in close proximity to the residential populations that are in Downtown today.

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On 10/31/2019 at 10:22 AM, CleCaneFan said:

Yeah, @KJP, @marty15‘s dad is my dad too🙂. I’m a 16 yr old hs junior-to-be in the pic looking out at the scoreboard and TT; 4 yrs at JCU couldn’t ultimately keep me from the building trades even if it was the carpenters and not my dad’s pipe fitter union....best decision I ever made.

 

 

Qué?  

Oh No What GIF by WWE

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Large crane this morning with some type of harness lifting things in or out of right field this morning. I breezed past too fast and couldn't get a picture but it was a pretty massive crane and, wild speculation here, the harness was about the size of those boxes in the outfield.

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25 minutes ago, bjk said:

I think they are doing HVAC work, would explain the size

 

I believe Schindler is doing elevator work there this week. I think they ordered the crane. 

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Not sure why this wasnt done years ago... all these modern stadiums have the fans right up on the field pretty much. Foul territory is shrinking like the glaciers!

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11 minutes ago, TwoStickney419 said:

Not sure why this wasnt done years ago... all these modern stadiums have the fans right up on the field pretty much. Foul territory is shrinking like the glaciers!

 

This, combined with the fact that 80% of the crowd is looking at their phone and not watching play on the field....

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5 minutes ago, marty15 said:

The result of juiced balls. 

 

Hey now.....

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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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Frank/whoever in county will be lucky if the state even replies to this absurd request with an emoticon with rolling eyes.

 

If Larry and his 600 million dollar net worth need assistance for rebuilding a perfectly fine park, then he should give equity to the city/county. No more of this abstract ancillary benefit bullsh*t but actual ownership in the Indians.

Edited by TBideon
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10 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Frank/whoever in county will be lucky if the state even replies to this absurd request with an emoticon with rolling eyes.

 

If Larry and his 600 million dollar net worth need assistance for rebuilding a perfectly fine park, then he should give equity to the city/county. No more of this abstract ancillary benefit bullsh*t but actual ownership in the Indians.

Careful with this criticism of helping the owner. The stadium lease ends in 2023 and the Indians are likely #3 in this town when it comes to support. In a shrinking city and stagnant but huge NEO region, sooner or later NEO won't be able to support 3 sports teams. If we want the Indians to stay here, we better not give the Dolans the finger when it comes to stadium improvements. We saw what happened with Modell.

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The city isn't shrinking anymore. And, even more importantly, as wealthier residents replace less wealthy ones, the income earned by Cleveland residents has gone way up in the last four years. Time to move on from the past donchathink?

Edited by KJP
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"Nearly every problem that we have in the USA -- unaffordable health care, prison overpopulation, hyper militarization, climate change, racism, gun violence, poverty, poor education, urban sprawl and others -- cannot be positively addressed because bribery and conflicts of interest are legal under campaign finance laws which protect the uber-wealthy and the narrow self-interests who grossly benefit from our afflictions."

 

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1 hour ago, TBideon said:

If Larry and his 600 million dollar net worth need assistance for rebuilding a perfectly fine park, then he should give equity to the city/county. No more of this abstract ancillary benefit bullsh*t but actual ownership in the Indians.


Ummm....???

 

”Gateway Economic Development Corporation of Greater Cleveland is a 501 ( c ) ( 3 ) non-profit Ohio corporation legally separate from any other entity. The Board is appointed by elected officials of The City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Gateway owns both Progressive Field and Quicken Loans Arena and leases these facilities to the Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Cavaliers, respectively.”

(https://www.gwcomplex.org/who.html)
 

I’m not going to argue the merits of the request, at least not quite yet. But let’s at least operate from the same set of facts.

 

And while Cleveland may not/no longer be shrinking, there are plenty of regions that are growing much faster, and some of them may Iove to have a Major League Baseball team. On the other hand, the MLB isn’t exactly setting the world on fire with its own popularity growth, so 🤷‍♂️

 

But again, if there’s going to be a productive discussion on this, it’s best if it’s based on well known and established facts. 

Edited by brtshrcegr

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27 minutes ago, brtshrcegr said:


Ummm....???

 

”Gateway Economic Development Corporation of Greater Cleveland is a 501 ( c ) ( 3 ) non-profit Ohio corporation legally separate from any other entity. The Board is appointed by elected officials of The City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Gateway owns both Progressive Field and Quicken Loans Arena and leases these facilities to the Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Cavaliers, respectively.”

(https://www.gwcomplex.org/who.html)
 

I’m not going to argue the merits of the request, at least not quite yet. But let’s at least operate from the same set of facts.

 

And while Cleveland may not/no longer be shrinking, there are plenty of regions that are growing much faster, and some of them may Iove to have a Major League Baseball team. On the other hand, the MLB isn’t exactly setting the world on fire with its own popularity growth, so 🤷‍♂️

 

But again, if there’s going to be a productive discussion on this, it’s best if it’s based on well known and established facts. 

On top of that the Dolans don’t want to spend money to put a team together that can get over the hump and win something. They keep cutting the payroll. They are not good owners and I can see the team leaving town when the lease is up. The attendance at the ball park is terrible. I don’t know that renovations will help anything.  

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29 minutes ago, PAZUZU said:

On top of that the Dolans don’t want to spend money to put a team together that can get over the hump and win something. They keep cutting the payroll. They are not good owners and I can see the team leaving town when the lease is up. The attendance at the ball park is terrible. I don’t know that renovations will help anything.  


Attendance certainly hasn’t been great the past decade or so, especially in contrast to the 455 straight sell outs (which I was part of more than a few of). However, it’s decidedly middle of the pack in comparison to the rest of the MLB, and has been trending better the past few seasons. Again, not an only in Cleveland situation, and there are a number of large market teams that have done worse:

 

2019: 21st out of 30

2018: 21st out of 30

2017: 22nd out of 30

(source: http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2019)

 

Certainly nothing so disastrous that would cause the Dolans to sell; if that were the standard then there are 8 or 9 other teams that are in peril as well.  The low payroll that you mention (not to mention concessions, licensing, TV rights, etc) probably ensures the Dolans make a profit despite the gate count. 

Edited by brtshrcegr

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3 hours ago, PAZUZU said:

On top of that the Dolans don’t want to spend money to put a team together that can get over the hump and win something. They keep cutting the payroll. They are not good owners and I can see the team leaving town when the lease is up. The attendance at the ball park is terrible. I don’t know that renovations will help anything.  

So let's give Dolan the finger, let him pack up and leave because this town couldn't care less about the Indians, and then we'll see how places like East 4th do with half of Gateway's tenants gone. Just like Sherwin a year ago, the possibility of the Indians leaving is real and can have terrible economic effects on downtown that extend beyond just baseball.

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38 minutes ago, TwoStickney419 said:

Suite upgrades? How about just taxing the people who actually use the suites..  

 

Where was there anything mentioned about suite upgrades?

 

And the suites are already taxed. In fact, Cleveland has the highest admissions tax in Ohio (Columbus has none, for example), and is higher than NYC, Washington, DC, and Chicago, to name a few. (Source: https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2017/02/how_much_ohio_cities_collect_i.html)

 

Edited by brtshrcegr

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6 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:

 

Where was there anything mentioned about suite upgrades?

 

And the suites are already taxed. In fact, Cleveland has the highest admissions tax in Ohio (Columbus has none, for example), and is higher than NYC, Washington, DC, and Chicago, to name a few. (Source: https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2017/02/how_much_ohio_cities_collect_i.html)

 

 

Cleveland also taxes artists who play the venues, and of course the players that play in the venues as well (not small numbers!) 

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Don't shoot the messenger here, but I heard an interesting concept which involves both baseball and football stadiums.  Down the road, when the inevitable happens, when there will be a call for two new stadiums, it could go like this.  A new baseball stadium could be built on the current site of the CSU basketball arena, with fewer seats (30-35K).  Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.  AND, having it in Gateway would put it in the middle of an entertainment area/district, making it more connected to downtown.  This would also result in opening up the lakefront for better use.  Possible, yes...probable, doubtful.

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32 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Don't shoot the messenger here, but I heard an interesting concept which involves both baseball and football stadiums.  Down the road, when the inevitable happens, when there will be a call for two new stadiums, it could go like this.  A new baseball stadium could be built on the current site of the CSU basketball arena, with fewer seats (30-35K).  Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.  AND, having it in Gateway would put it in the middle of an entertainment area/district, making it more connected to downtown.  This would also result in opening up the lakefront for better use.  Possible, yes...probable, doubtful.

But would move the stadium that has 80+ events a year out of the heart of downtown and bring in the one that has 8-10 events a year.  This would probably hamstring a lot of local businesses in the Gateway.

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37 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Don't shoot the messenger here, but I heard an interesting concept which involves both baseball and football stadiums.  Down the road, when the inevitable happens, when there will be a call for two new stadiums, it could go like this.  A new baseball stadium could be built on the current site of the CSU basketball arena, with fewer seats (30-35K).  Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.  AND, having it in Gateway would put it in the middle of an entertainment area/district, making it more connected to downtown.  This would also result in opening up the lakefront for better use.  Possible, yes...probable, doubtful.

This was a proposal the other day from Daryl Ruiter from 92.3 the Fan. It's not actually in the planning or conceptual phases. It was just his idea. The gateway site isn't large enough for a football stadium, given its current footprint. The Browns are/were actively looking at 5 other sites, and this is/was not one of them. 

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51 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.

 

I'm always curious to see what kind of events proponents think will come to a domed stadium year round.  

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14 minutes ago, zbaris87 said:

This was a proposal the other day from Daryl Ruiter from 92.3 the Fan. It's not actually in the planning or conceptual phases. It was just his idea. The gateway site isn't large enough for a football stadium, given its current footprint. The Browns are/were actively looking at 5 other sites, and this is/was not one of them. 

And the Wolstein arena site is not big enough for a baseball stadium.  I wish I could get a radio show and talk nonsense as well.

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3 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

I'm always curious to see what kind of events proponents think will come to a domed stadium year round.  

If done in the current location, and paired with an expanded convention center that spans the tracks, every event the I-X Center currently gets.

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6 minutes ago, marty15 said:

If done in the current location, and paired with an expanded convention center that spans the tracks, every event the I-X Center currently gets.

 

The IX is over 1 million square feet of floor space.  The current convention center is 410,000.   Plus a football field?   Any expansion over the tracks would have to more than double the size of the existing convention center.   Plus, football fields do not make for great show floors.  Ceilings are "a bit" too tall.   Check the events calendar at Lucas Oil or Ford Field in our neighboring states.  Never much going on in the stadiums.   But this should be for another thread....

 

Personally I don't see Progressive Field going anywhere.   It is a fan and player favorite.  And the management has successfully downsized it by creating bar and patio spaces, which lines up with the other revenue and patron-experience goals in a league with attendance issues.   What they need to do is shrink the season, expand the playoffs and perhaps more seats would be needed.   

Edited by Cleburger
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16 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Personally I don't see Progressive Field going anywhere.   It is a fan and player favorite.  

 

Agree. Any serious consideration of moving the Indians or the ballpark would surely bring out pitchforks lol. 

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I'm not surprised that they are getting the ball rolling on this.  I am fearful over the future of the Indians.  Despite a successful team on the field and popular ballpark upgrades, attendance has remained below-average in recent years, and that's with ticket prices being well below league average.  The Dolans expanded payroll for a couple years, and attendance did NOT follow. 

 

Now they've lost their minority ownership partner to KC and it looks like money is very tight once again.  It's all well and good that the team value has increased substantially on paper, but you can't sign Francisco Lindor with a Forbes magazine valuation.  Now fan sentiment is headed toward a new low if/when Lindor departs.  Unless we find a Cleveland-based billionaire eager to lose millions on operating expenses every year, we are either stuck with the Dolans and a small-market payroll, or the Indians are in real danger of being a relocation candidate. 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

Don't shoot the messenger here, but I heard an interesting concept which involves both baseball and football stadiums.  Down the road, when the inevitable happens, when there will be a call for two new stadiums, it could go like this.  A new baseball stadium could be built on the current site of the CSU basketball arena, with fewer seats (30-35K).  Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.  AND, having it in Gateway would put it in the middle of an entertainment area/district, making it more connected to downtown.  This would also result in opening up the lakefront for better use.  Possible, yes...probable, doubtful.

We all heard it from Daryl Ruiter.

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15 hours ago, KJP said:

The city isn't shrinking anymore. And, even more importantly, as wealthier residents replace less wealthy ones, the income earned by Cleveland residents has gone way up in the last four years. Time to move on from the past donchathink?

KJP, Idk what estimates you have been looking at, but Cleveland proper population continues to decrease by an average of about 1000 residents each year, so the city is still shrinking. I realize college educated people are moving into some neighborhoods in Cleveland proper, but besides downtown, Ohio City and Tremont continue to experience a net migration loss this decade. And it does not offset the population loss in the rest of Cleveland proper and now the inner ring suburbs and Cuyahoga County. The exurbs in Geauga, Medina, Lorain, and Lake counties continue to increase at a rate greater than Cuyahoga. The wealth of the residents moving in doesn't predict if attendance will go up. We need density in the city and inner ring suburbs, except that density is decreasing each year.

 

This is not sustainable for a city with 3 teams. Everyone in sports media knows this and has been predicting a team will leave the last 5 years. Unfortunately, the Indians are the likely one out based on attendance and fan following in this city.

Edited by AsDustinFoxWouldSay
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This is all just pointless speculation.  If/when anyone has any actual news we can reopen this thread.

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