Cleveland: Progressive Field

[KJP]

I see where you get your love of development/construction from @marty15! Our parents certainly do affect our interests into adulthood.

 

EDIT: already got your rally caps on too, I see.

Edited October 31, 2019 by KJP

[CleCaneFan]

19 minutes ago, KJP said:

I see where you get your love of development/construction from @marty15! Our parents certainly do affect our interests into adulthood.

 

EDIT: already got your rally caps on too, I see.

Yeah, @KJP, @marty15‘s dad is my dad too. I’m a 16 yr old hs junior-to-be in the pic looking out at the scoreboard and TT; 4 yrs at JCU couldn’t ultimately keep me from the building trades even if it was the carpenters and not my dad’s pipe fitter union....best decision I ever made.

[roman totale XVII]

^ Great pictures! I can’t unsee how filthy Terminal Tower is though!

[MyTwoSense]

On 10/31/2019 at 9:27 AM, marty15 said:

My Dad gave my brothers and I some tours of “Gateway” Stadium back in 93 when he was running work there. #tbt

 

 

This brings back so many memories as my SOHIO bldg. office had unobstructed views of the construction.  Also, think how much downtown has changed.  I do at this point in time, wish that the Central Market could have been rebuilt smaller for downtown residents.  Imagine having a central market today located in close proximity to the residential populations that are in Downtown today.

[MyTwoSense]

On 10/31/2019 at 10:22 AM, CleCaneFan said:

Yeah, @KJP, @marty15‘s dad is my dad too. I’m a 16 yr old hs junior-to-be in the pic looking out at the scoreboard and TT; 4 yrs at JCU couldn’t ultimately keep me from the building trades even if it was the carpenters and not my dad’s pipe fitter union....best decision I ever made.

 

 

Qué?  

[tj111]

Large crane this morning with some type of harness lifting things in or out of right field this morning. I breezed past too fast and couldn't get a picture but it was a pretty massive crane and, wild speculation here, the harness was about the size of those boxes in the outfield.

[bjk]

I think they are doing HVAC work, would explain the size

[Mov2Ohio]

25 minutes ago, bjk said:

I think they are doing HVAC work, would explain the size

 

I believe Schindler is doing elevator work there this week. I think they ordered the crane. 

[GISguy]

Looks like they're only lifting to the escalator level, elevators sound about right. 

[tastybunns]

FWIH, they were going to replace the escalators in their improvement planning.

[Guest skiwest]

https://fox8.com/2020/01/29/indians-to-extend-netting-at-progressive-field-down-foul-lines/

[Cleburger]

4 minutes ago, skiwest said:

https://fox8.com/2020/01/29/indians-to-extend-netting-at-progressive-field-down-foul-lines/

 

All 30 teams are adding this in their parks. 

[TwoStickney419]

Not sure why this wasnt done years ago... all these modern stadiums have the fans right up on the field pretty much. Foul territory is shrinking like the glaciers!

[Cleburger]

11 minutes ago, TwoStickney419 said:

Not sure why this wasnt done years ago... all these modern stadiums have the fans right up on the field pretty much. Foul territory is shrinking like the glaciers!

 

This, combined with the fact that 80% of the crowd is looking at their phone and not watching play on the field....

[marty15]

The result of juiced balls. 

[KJP]

5 minutes ago, marty15 said:

The result of juiced balls. 

 

Hey now.....

[freethink]

Gateway Board exploring possible major renovations at Progressive Field.

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/cuyahoga-county-asks-state-for-money-to-help-pay-for-upgrades-at-progressive-field/95-483e8ecb-c1c7-4d61-8018-cdd0f9da10a2

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by freethink
pic

[TBideon]

Frank/whoever in county will be lucky if the state even replies to this absurd request with an emoticon with rolling eyes.

 

If Larry and his 600 million dollar net worth need assistance for rebuilding a perfectly fine park, then he should give equity to the city/county. No more of this abstract ancillary benefit bullsh*t but actual ownership in the Indians.

Edited February 27, 2020 by TBideon

[AsDustinFoxWouldSay]

10 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Frank/whoever in county will be lucky if the state even replies to this absurd request with an emoticon with rolling eyes.

 

If Larry and his 600 million dollar net worth need assistance for rebuilding a perfectly fine park, then he should give equity to the city/county. No more of this abstract ancillary benefit bullsh*t but actual ownership in the Indians.

Careful with this criticism of helping the owner. The stadium lease ends in 2023 and the Indians are likely #3 in this town when it comes to support. In a shrinking city and stagnant but huge NEO region, sooner or later NEO won't be able to support 3 sports teams. If we want the Indians to stay here, we better not give the Dolans the finger when it comes to stadium improvements. We saw what happened with Modell.

[KJP]

The city isn't shrinking anymore. And, even more importantly, as wealthier residents replace less wealthy ones, the income earned by Cleveland residents has gone way up in the last four years. Time to move on from the past donchathink?

Edited February 27, 2020 by KJP

[brtshrcegr]

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

If Larry and his 600 million dollar net worth need assistance for rebuilding a perfectly fine park, then he should give equity to the city/county. No more of this abstract ancillary benefit bullsh*t but actual ownership in the Indians.

Ummm....???

 

”Gateway Economic Development Corporation of Greater Cleveland is a 501 ( c ) ( 3 ) non-profit Ohio corporation legally separate from any other entity. The Board is appointed by elected officials of The City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Gateway owns both Progressive Field and Quicken Loans Arena and leases these facilities to the Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Cavaliers, respectively.”

(https://www.gwcomplex.org/who.html)
 

I’m not going to argue the merits of the request, at least not quite yet. But let’s at least operate from the same set of facts.

 

And while Cleveland may not/no longer be shrinking, there are plenty of regions that are growing much faster, and some of them may Iove to have a Major League Baseball team. On the other hand, the MLB isn’t exactly setting the world on fire with its own popularity growth, so 

 

But again, if there’s going to be a productive discussion on this, it’s best if it’s based on well known and established facts. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by brtshrcegr

[PAZUZU]

27 minutes ago, brtshrcegr said:

Ummm....???

 

”Gateway Economic Development Corporation of Greater Cleveland is a 501 ( c ) ( 3 ) non-profit Ohio corporation legally separate from any other entity. The Board is appointed by elected officials of The City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Gateway owns both Progressive Field and Quicken Loans Arena and leases these facilities to the Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Cavaliers, respectively.”

(https://www.gwcomplex.org/who.html)
 

I’m not going to argue the merits of the request, at least not quite yet. But let’s at least operate from the same set of facts.

 

And while Cleveland may not/no longer be shrinking, there are plenty of regions that are growing much faster, and some of them may Iove to have a Major League Baseball team. On the other hand, the MLB isn’t exactly setting the world on fire with its own popularity growth, so 

 

But again, if there’s going to be a productive discussion on this, it’s best if it’s based on well known and established facts. 

On top of that the Dolans don’t want to spend money to put a team together that can get over the hump and win something. They keep cutting the payroll. They are not good owners and I can see the team leaving town when the lease is up. The attendance at the ball park is terrible. I don’t know that renovations will help anything.  

[brtshrcegr]

29 minutes ago, PAZUZU said:

On top of that the Dolans don’t want to spend money to put a team together that can get over the hump and win something. They keep cutting the payroll. They are not good owners and I can see the team leaving town when the lease is up. The attendance at the ball park is terrible. I don’t know that renovations will help anything.  

Attendance certainly hasn’t been great the past decade or so, especially in contrast to the 455 straight sell outs (which I was part of more than a few of). However, it’s decidedly middle of the pack in comparison to the rest of the MLB, and has been trending better the past few seasons. Again, not an only in Cleveland situation, and there are a number of large market teams that have done worse:

 

2019: 21st out of 30

2018: 21st out of 30

2017: 22nd out of 30

(source: http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2019)

 

Certainly nothing so disastrous that would cause the Dolans to sell; if that were the standard then there are 8 or 9 other teams that are in peril as well.  The low payroll that you mention (not to mention concessions, licensing, TV rights, etc) probably ensures the Dolans make a profit despite the gate count. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by brtshrcegr

[AsDustinFoxWouldSay]

3 hours ago, PAZUZU said:

On top of that the Dolans don’t want to spend money to put a team together that can get over the hump and win something. They keep cutting the payroll. They are not good owners and I can see the team leaving town when the lease is up. The attendance at the ball park is terrible. I don’t know that renovations will help anything.  

So let's give Dolan the finger, let him pack up and leave because this town couldn't care less about the Indians, and then we'll see how places like East 4th do with half of Gateway's tenants gone. Just like Sherwin a year ago, the possibility of the Indians leaving is real and can have terrible economic effects on downtown that extend beyond just baseball.

[TwoStickney419]

Suite upgrades? How about just taxing the people who actually use the suites..  

[brtshrcegr]

38 minutes ago, TwoStickney419 said:

Suite upgrades? How about just taxing the people who actually use the suites..  

 

Where was there anything mentioned about suite upgrades?

 

And the suites are already taxed. In fact, Cleveland has the highest admissions tax in Ohio (Columbus has none, for example), and is higher than NYC, Washington, DC, and Chicago, to name a few. (Source: https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2017/02/how_much_ohio_cities_collect_i.html)

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by brtshrcegr

[Cleburger]

6 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:

 

Where was there anything mentioned about suite upgrades?

 

And the suites are already taxed. In fact, Cleveland has the highest admissions tax in Ohio (Columbus has none, for example), and is higher than NYC, Washington, DC, and Chicago, to name a few. (Source: https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2017/02/how_much_ohio_cities_collect_i.html)

 

 

Cleveland also taxes artists who play the venues, and of course the players that play in the venues as well (not small numbers!) 

[cfdwarrior]

Don't shoot the messenger here, but I heard an interesting concept which involves both baseball and football stadiums.  Down the road, when the inevitable happens, when there will be a call for two new stadiums, it could go like this.  A new baseball stadium could be built on the current site of the CSU basketball arena, with fewer seats (30-35K).  Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.  AND, having it in Gateway would put it in the middle of an entertainment area/district, making it more connected to downtown.  This would also result in opening up the lakefront for better use.  Possible, yes...probable, doubtful.

[tj111]

32 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Don't shoot the messenger here, but I heard an interesting concept which involves both baseball and football stadiums.  Down the road, when the inevitable happens, when there will be a call for two new stadiums, it could go like this.  A new baseball stadium could be built on the current site of the CSU basketball arena, with fewer seats (30-35K).  Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.  AND, having it in Gateway would put it in the middle of an entertainment area/district, making it more connected to downtown.  This would also result in opening up the lakefront for better use.  Possible, yes...probable, doubtful.

But would move the stadium that has 80+ events a year out of the heart of downtown and bring in the one that has 8-10 events a year.  This would probably hamstring a lot of local businesses in the Gateway.

[zbaris87]

37 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Don't shoot the messenger here, but I heard an interesting concept which involves both baseball and football stadiums.  Down the road, when the inevitable happens, when there will be a call for two new stadiums, it could go like this.  A new baseball stadium could be built on the current site of the CSU basketball arena, with fewer seats (30-35K).  Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.  AND, having it in Gateway would put it in the middle of an entertainment area/district, making it more connected to downtown.  This would also result in opening up the lakefront for better use.  Possible, yes...probable, doubtful.

This was a proposal the other day from Daryl Ruiter from 92.3 the Fan. It's not actually in the planning or conceptual phases. It was just his idea. The gateway site isn't large enough for a football stadium, given its current footprint. The Browns are/were actively looking at 5 other sites, and this is/was not one of them. 

[Cleburger]

51 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.

 

I'm always curious to see what kind of events proponents think will come to a domed stadium year round.  

[Htsguy]

14 minutes ago, zbaris87 said:

This was a proposal the other day from Daryl Ruiter from 92.3 the Fan. It's not actually in the planning or conceptual phases. It was just his idea. The gateway site isn't large enough for a football stadium, given its current footprint. The Browns are/were actively looking at 5 other sites, and this is/was not one of them. 

And the Wolstein arena site is not big enough for a baseball stadium.  I wish I could get a radio show and talk nonsense as well.

[marty15]

3 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

I'm always curious to see what kind of events proponents think will come to a domed stadium year round.  

If done in the current location, and paired with an expanded convention center that spans the tracks, every event the I-X Center currently gets.

[Cleburger]

6 minutes ago, marty15 said:

If done in the current location, and paired with an expanded convention center that spans the tracks, every event the I-X Center currently gets.

 

The IX is over 1 million square feet of floor space.  The current convention center is 410,000.   Plus a football field?   Any expansion over the tracks would have to more than double the size of the existing convention center.   Plus, football fields do not make for great show floors.  Ceilings are "a bit" too tall.   Check the events calendar at Lucas Oil or Ford Field in our neighboring states.  Never much going on in the stadiums.   But this should be for another thread....

 

Personally I don't see Progressive Field going anywhere.   It is a fan and player favorite.  And the management has successfully downsized it by creating bar and patio spaces, which lines up with the other revenue and patron-experience goals in a league with attendance issues.   What they need to do is shrink the season, expand the playoffs and perhaps more seats would be needed.   

Edited February 27, 2020 by Cleburger
typo

[surfohio]

16 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Personally I don't see Progressive Field going anywhere.   It is a fan and player favorite.  

 

Agree. Any serious consideration of moving the Indians or the ballpark would surely bring out pitchforks lol. 

[ML11]

I'm not surprised that they are getting the ball rolling on this.  I am fearful over the future of the Indians.  Despite a successful team on the field and popular ballpark upgrades, attendance has remained below-average in recent years, and that's with ticket prices being well below league average.  The Dolans expanded payroll for a couple years, and attendance did NOT follow. 

 

Now they've lost their minority ownership partner to KC and it looks like money is very tight once again.  It's all well and good that the team value has increased substantially on paper, but you can't sign Francisco Lindor with a Forbes magazine valuation.  Now fan sentiment is headed toward a new low if/when Lindor departs.  Unless we find a Cleveland-based billionaire eager to lose millions on operating expenses every year, we are either stuck with the Dolans and a small-market payroll, or the Indians are in real danger of being a relocation candidate. 

 

 

 

 

[AsDustinFoxWouldSay]

2 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

Don't shoot the messenger here, but I heard an interesting concept which involves both baseball and football stadiums.  Down the road, when the inevitable happens, when there will be a call for two new stadiums, it could go like this.  A new baseball stadium could be built on the current site of the CSU basketball arena, with fewer seats (30-35K).  Then, a domed or retractable football stadium could be built where the baseball stadium currently sits.  Having it be domed, or having the ability to close it, would make it usable for many more functions year round.  AND, having it in Gateway would put it in the middle of an entertainment area/district, making it more connected to downtown.  This would also result in opening up the lakefront for better use.  Possible, yes...probable, doubtful.

We all heard it from Daryl Ruiter.

[AsDustinFoxWouldSay]

15 hours ago, KJP said:

The city isn't shrinking anymore. And, even more importantly, as wealthier residents replace less wealthy ones, the income earned by Cleveland residents has gone way up in the last four years. Time to move on from the past donchathink?

KJP, Idk what estimates you have been looking at, but Cleveland proper population continues to decrease by an average of about 1000 residents each year, so the city is still shrinking. I realize college educated people are moving into some neighborhoods in Cleveland proper, but besides downtown, Ohio City and Tremont continue to experience a net migration loss this decade. And it does not offset the population loss in the rest of Cleveland proper and now the inner ring suburbs and Cuyahoga County. The exurbs in Geauga, Medina, Lorain, and Lake counties continue to increase at a rate greater than Cuyahoga. The wealth of the residents moving in doesn't predict if attendance will go up. We need density in the city and inner ring suburbs, except that density is decreasing each year.

 

This is not sustainable for a city with 3 teams. Everyone in sports media knows this and has been predicting a team will leave the last 5 years. Unfortunately, the Indians are the likely one out based on attendance and fan following in this city.

Edited February 27, 2020 by AsDustinFoxWouldSay

[X]

This is all just pointless speculation.  If/when anyone has any actual news we can reopen this thread.

[bwheats]

Saw a tweet today concerning the Indians lease at Progressive. The lease is expiring in 2023. Could the browns and Indians be pursuing a joint, domed stadium?

[surfohio]

8 minutes ago, bwheats said:

Saw a tweet today concerning the Indians lease at Progressive. The lease is expiring in 2023. Could the browns and Indians be pursuing a joint, domed stadium?

Your mean retractable roof? I’d find it hard to believe the Indians would pursue an indoor venue. Plus their ballpark is still one of the best. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by surfohio

[bwheats]

 Yes, retractable roof.

[Htsguy]

18 minutes ago, bwheats said:

Saw a tweet today concerning the Indians lease at Progressive. The lease is expiring in 2023. Could the browns and Indians be pursuing a joint, domed stadium?

The past 30 years has been a retreat from the multi purpose stadiums of the 60s and 70s and for a hundred reasons I don't see them coming back.  I am racking my brain and cannot recall even one multi purpose baseball/football stadium in major league sports today (maybe the Rodgers Center in Toronto).  Oakland until most recently but not any longer.

[roman totale XVII]

^ The leagues absolutely do not want them. Even MLS. 

[Guest skiwest]

There is nothing wrong with Progressive Field, except for the shipping containers in right field. It is still one of the best ballparks in MLB.

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by skiwest

[LifeLongClevelander]

1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

The past 30 years has been a retreat from the multi purpose stadiums of the 60s and 70s and for a hundred reasons I don't see them coming back.  I am racking my brain and cannot recall even one multi purpose baseball/football stadium in major league sports today (maybe the Rodgers Center in Toronto).  Oakland until most recently but not any longer.

The multi-purpose stadiums will not come back.  They were too big for baseball and too small for football.  The dimensions required to accommodate baseball fields take seats too far away for football games.  The playing surface must be artificial.  I recall going to Cleveland Municipal Stadium.  The Bossard family (groundskeepers at the stadium) always had the difficult time in getting the field in playing shape by early April. The playing field didn't really become "normal" until late-May.  Damaged spots would make life difficult for fielders.  For about 2 months, the field was in good shape, but would start getting torn up by football in August.  The dirt portion of the baseball field,especially the infield, were problems in football games.

 

There was also another problem with the multi-purpose "cookie cutter" stadiums that were constructed in the late-1960's to the mid-1970's.  Major league baseball mandated pretty much uniform field dimensions and styles for all new ballparks.  Gone were the the various traits that gave fields their own "personalities".  Some of those features probably shouldn't return (extremely short foul lines at many ballparks and monuments in the playing field like were at Yankee Stadium).  It is good to see that the current ballparks have gone back to having their own distinct features and angular outfield walls.

[NorthShore647]

Cleveland Indians, Cuyahoga County leaders 'well along' in negotiations to extend lease at Progressive Field

Mark Naymik - WKYC - June 3, 2021

 

"As of today, a few Gateway officials, the Indians organization, and County Executive Armond Budish are working on a lease extension, 3News has learned. All declined to discuss details, but Gateway Board Chairman Ken Silliman said in a statement that negotiations are "well along" and that details could come in a matter of weeks. ... The potential cost of upgrading the ballpark will be in the tens of millions, if not more. Some teams have added development around sports facilities as one way to help pay for new stadiums and renovations, something Silliman has not previously ruled out."

 

 

[3231]

Not that it should or does matter, but Silliman is a HUGE Indians fan..

[NorthShore647]

Finding an investor is crucial step for Cleveland Indians

Kevin Kleps - Crain's Cleveland Business - July 12, 2021

 

"Stanley Middleman, who founded Freedom Mortgage in 1990, "has discussed purchasing a minority share in the Indians," The Athletic reported. It's unclear how the talks with Middleman have progressed, The Athletic reported, and there are "other interested suitors" in a team that Forbes estimates is worth $1.16 billion. ... The club, which has two more seasons on its lease, and Gateway "are nearing an agreement on an extension," The Athletic reported. Gateway hasn't held a board meeting since Dec. 9, 2020. Todd Greathouse, the executive director of the nonprofit that presides over Progressive Field and Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse, told Crain's via email that there isn't "an exact date" for the next meeting, but the group is planning to schedule one by the end of July."

[NorthShore647]

Cleveland Indians, government leaders to provide update on Progressive Field lease extension

Courtney Astolfi - Cleveland.com -  Aug. 5, 2021 

 

"The Cleveland Indians, along with Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson, Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish and Gov. Mike DeWine, will hold a news conference at 10:30 a.m. to provide an update on negotiations to extend the team’s lease in Cleveland."