Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment

[jmblec2]

looks like a newish dumpster is there?

[SleepyLeroy]

Wasn't Convention Place a mall at one point?

 

It had i hallway connection from the garage & skywalk on the third floor and all the businesses were small glass fronted kiosk type stores. Lower floors were offices, short lived clubs and apparently at one point a food court in the mix. This sad sign is still up.

[Gordon Bombay]

Wasn't Convention Place a mall at one point?

 

It had i hallway connection from the garage & skywalk on the third floor and all the businesses were small glass fronted kiosk type stores. Lower floors were offices, short lived clubs and apparently at one point a food court in the mix. This sad sign is still up.

 

How high off the ground is this and where could I buy some slide letters to create my own message here?

[Ram23]

^ It's in this bizarre public space off of 5th Street:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1006336,-84.5167219,3a,75y,161.5h,89.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE6LpvR19bRppYFszj7697Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

There is an entrance to what's left of the Skywalk out of the back of the parking garage at 4th and Home Alley, that enters into what's left of the mezzanine level of Convention Place. I discovered this last year trying to get from Fountain Square to 3rd and Plum in a downpour - I was able to get all the way to 4th and Home without getting wet.

[Chas Wiederhold]

The bizarre public space serves as an unofficial skate park. I pass folks skating there often on my way to and from my gym on 4th.

[urbangiraffe]

Crosswalk signals were added back to this block today. Probably not a good sign for any construction starting...

[taestell]

Yep. Might as well reopen the sidewalk to pedestrians while they're waiting for things to get moving...

[savadams13]

Crosswalk signals were added back to this block today. Probably not a good sign for any construction starting...

 

Shame that they cant patch the Tower Place Garage hole. At least the skywalk is repaired and they removed the escalators for stairs.

[old edale]

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/aug-18-2017-packet/

 

Check item 7. This project is not dead.

[Cincy513]

It's not dead but it's moving at a snails pace. 

[taestell]

Crosswalk signals were added back to this block today. Probably not a good sign for any construction starting...

 

Shame that they cant patch the Tower Place Garage hole. At least the skywalk is repaired and they removed the escalators for stairs.

 

What do you mean about not repairing the Tower Place Garage hole? Was there some news about that I missed?

[savadams13]

Crosswalk signals were added back to this block today. Probably not a good sign for any construction starting...

 

Shame that they cant patch the Tower Place Garage hole. At least the skywalk is repaired and they removed the escalators for stairs.

 

What do you mean about not repairing the Tower Place Garage hole? Was there some news about that I missed?

 

They still have not properly patched the area where the vehicle bridge connected the Pogue Garage to the Tower Place Garage. It just has poorly attached painted plywood. Go see for yourself, I am surprised it hasnt been done yet.

[taestell]

Ah yes, I knew that Tower Place facade hasn't been fixed yet. Just wondering if there was some news about it never being fixed or something like that.

[nicker66]

I just heard the project is officially on hold until mid-2018.  A redesign is possible but obviously nothing is concrete anymore.

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/aug-18-2017-packet/

 

Check item 7. This project is not dead.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just read item #7 and it mentioned a Kroger store would be part of the development? 

[taestell]

^ No, the Kroger is at Central Parkway & Walnut, item #6 in that packet.

[hoerstw]

Yeah for whatever reason on the "Consistency with Plan Cincinnati" blurb for 4th/Race it looks like the same verbiage was copied over from the Central/Walnut description. I assume just a typo/oversight.

[lobanio0]

I'm not sure about the Kroger details....but I think the TIF money is gone for the project. Also if this mid-2018 is actual, I hope someone answers for the 1M spent on paragon salon. Poorly mismanaged. The lease would have been up in November. 

[taestell]

I'm not sure about the Kroger details....but I think the TIF money is gone for the project. Also if this mid-2018 is actual, I hope someone answers for the 1M spent on paragon salon. Poorly mismanaged. The lease would have been up in November. 

 

That's a great point. According to this article the developer paid Paragon's relocation costs but I question whether that's what actually happened.

[jmblec2]

who paid to have the garage torn down? Also, didn't the developer say they were interested in the saks 5th site if they were to move?  Seems like they were high on cincy maybe competition has scared them off. Or they want to go bigger? maybe add a hotel portion?

[Guest jmecklenborg]

The Tower Place deal was sleazy and this deal is sleazy.  Cranley is all over this.  Yet the streetcar-haters keep bringing up Mahogany's. 

[Cincy513]

The demand is there right now for more downtown apartments but it seems like the city can't get out of it's own way sometimes. 

[taestell]

The Tower Place deal was sleazy and this deal is sleazy.  Cranley is all over this.  Yet the streetcar-haters keep bringing up Mahogany's. 

 

You can draw a straight line from Cranley taking office, cancelling the parking deal (i.e., reworking it on his terms... we still got the pain but not the benefits), diverting the funding for 4th & Race to 8th & Sycamore, and 4th & Race getting massively downsized and delayed. But no one at the Enquirer is paying attention so this story isn't going to get told.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

There is also a well-spread rumor that last year Cranley chased away an outside developer seeking to do 150 apartments downtown because they refused to donate to his campaign.   

[JYP]

Reference to the original deal. I had forgotten they would also be required to build the 8th and Sycamore garage under the canceled parking lease deal.

 

We lost this thread during the recent website outage, although other than funding being secured, not much else has been in the news.

 

 

Pogue’s Garage to Make Way for 30-Story Residential Tower, Grocery Store

By Randy A. Simes ― February 20, 2013

 

Cincinnati City Manager Milton Dohoney briefed City Council’s Budget & Finance Committee of the specifics of a plan to modernize and lease some of the city’s parking assets. Part of the immediate $92 million infusion, as part of the plan, would be used to spark the redevelopment of Tower Place Mall and Pogue’s Garage.

 

Dohoney stated that the vacant Tower Place Mall would be converted into a 500-space parking garage, with 20,000 square feet of street-level commercial spaces fronting onto Race and Fourth Streets.

 

“Residential is a huge factor in the ability to attract and retain retail, but what retail really wants is customers,” explained David Ginsburg, President/CEO of Downtown Cincinnati Incorporated (DCI), with regards to the state of the center city’s retail scene.

 

Cont

 

 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

^Plus, Tower Place was sold at way below its value to Chinedum Ndukwe, who pocketed $5 million after reselling it. 

[Guest jmecklenborg]

It was $6 million, sorry. 

 

Here is some background on the $1 sale to Ndukwe's nascent company:

http://blackcincinnati.blogspot.co.id/2014/06/did-smitherman-vote-to-give-his-donor.html?view=mosaic#!/2014/06/did-smitherman-vote-to-give-his-donor.html

 

Here is the sale for $15 million after $9 million in work:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/12/11/mabley-place-garage-sold/20271511/

 

[thebillshark]

Question about the current design. Having this site cleared gives a wide open view the historic buildings on the south side of the street. Is something lost by having the parking garage face the street on the second, third, fourth, fifth stories etc in the proposed design? On the south side of the street in the historic buildings that "zone" is habitated by human activity (office and residential,) on the north side under the proposed design it is parking garage dead space. I know we have a lot of focus on retail and building entrances for street level activation, but I wonder if there's something psychologically important/appealing about having the upper stories in this kind of low to mid rise "zone" activated as well. Is having two habitated low to mid rise "zones" facing off across the street a key to a great street, one that just "feels" right?

[jwulsin]

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/09/21/exclusive-fourth-race-developers-share-possible.html

 

Construction on the planned $106 million apartment tower and parking garage at Fourth and Race streets probably will not start until the first quarter of 2018, officials with the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. and Indianapolis developer Flaherty & Collins told the Business Courier.

 

But Flaherty & Collins now plans to add one story to the project, taking it from 225 units to 264 units and from 14 stories to 15 stories. The project will have 30,000 square feet of first-floor retail, six stories of parking and eight stories of residential units.

[LAW 21]

At least we're getting an extra story out of this delay.  :-P

[Guest jmecklenborg]

^No, that's just part of the stall tactic.  Cranley has no doubt pushed this back so he can reward a donor after the election. 

[TroyEros]

An if cranley loses?

[brian korte]

Left unsaid? What happens when/if 3CDC can't make the garage financing work? Project dies.

[IAGuy39]

^^^I was wondering what was going on with the financing since the article stated there was no TIF Money for this project so it is taking 3CDC a long time to get financing for the garage since the bonds will be backed by the future revenue of the ground floor retail (I believe) and the parking ramp revenue.

 

Flaherty and Collins had decided on their own to add an extra story (must have made sense to them) but financing is contingent on the ramp getting built.

 

Wasn't there TIF Money in this even after the latest down sizing?  That must have went away...

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Cranley was the inventor of Cincinnati's TIF's back around 2003.  Since he was about the only person who understood how it works, he pictured how he would use it for political patronage.  Part of the reason why he hated the streetcar was because it consumed some of the OTR TIF's. 

 

So if Cranley preliminarily negotiates a deal with a developer that involves TIF's, he can purposefully stall the project by simply denying them. 

[hoerstw]

I thought I recall that when this project was downsized it reduced the amount of TIF money needed, not completely eliminated it? So that money went somewhere else (Central/Walnut?) Or it is earmarked for something not announced yet (possibly something to do with convention center and/or hotel?... just speculating).

[The_Cincinnati_Kid]

Cincinnati had TIF way before 2003.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

Cincinnati had TIF way before 2003.

 

It may have had TIF's but not the TIF District system that we have now. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2003/04/07/story3.html

[ucgrady]

So basically out of town developers are getting screwed so that Cranley's administration can grease the wheels for local developers? Does this mean that Skyhouse's financing could also still be in jeopardy?

[Guest jmecklenborg]

So basically out of town developers are getting screwed so that Cranley's administration can grease the wheels for local developers? Does this mean that Skyhouse's financing could also still be in jeopardy?

 

Yeah.  There is a well-circulated but vague rumor that Cranley put the kibosh on a $100+ million apartment project near the convention center spearheaded by Chicago developers.  This, ironically, is how things were done for decades in Chicago.  You had to go through Daly to get anything built. 

[IAGuy39]

I just read the article where it got back online and it is a $5.5 million forgivable loan that was given to this project and I think the same for 7 and Broadway project.  That may still be a part of it, they are just trying to find financing on the ramp.

 

I think Skyhouse happens either way, only subsidy is abatements, and they own the parking ramp and will pay $7 million into the streetcar the next 30 years.

[Guest jmecklenborg]

And folks we have a scandal:

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2017/11/08/city-taxpayers-would-hook-nearly-6-million-if-4th-race-project-fails/835895001/

[ryanlammi]

You mean that info wasn't available until 2 days after the election! Shock! Gasp!

[nicker66]

^^While I agree that doesn't sound good, the city was going to have to spend that money all along to get it ready for any developer.  At least 3CDC took most of the risk and all of the cost out of the taxpayer's hands. 

 

The Enquirer has lost the ability/staffing to go to the next level of a story and has turned into a click-bait farm.   

[taestell]

It just shows how unnecessary it was to bring 3CDC into this deal in the first place. It was a mini-scandal that the city was going to have to pay to move Paragon, so instead 3CDC payed them, but in the end, the city is still on the hook for it anyway. If 3CDC wasn't involved and we would've just let F&C do the entire development, it probably would be done by now.

[ink]

I take that article as a complete non-issue. There's no sign the agreement will be cancelled, and the project will likely happen. Much ado about nothing.

[savadams13]

In other news, they have started to patch the Mabley Place Garage finally. Crews started working on new steel structure and Facade for the whole left by the old vehicle bridge today. No more boarded up building...

[taestell]

I take that article as a complete non-issue. There's no sign the agreement will be cancelled, and the project will likely happen. Much ado about nothing.

 

The important detail is that either the city or 3CDC can cancel the agreement at will. There's no evidence that either party will cancel, but if 3CDC decides tomorrow it's not worth their time, they can say "we're done" and the city has to pay them back. The city has no negotiating power in the matter.

[jwulsin]

^Yeah... but that's not exactly "scandalous". Essentially, the City asked 3CDC to finance the demolition in return for having an option as developer. If they can't make the development work, the city pays them back for the demolition and the property reverts to the City. The City then would be able to re-coup that expense by selling the development-ready parcel to somebody else (assuming the property is worth more than the demolition expense).

[JYP]

I forget where I saw it but someone said that there has basically been a "hole" in downtown real estate for years. By "hole" they mean famous downtown project that stalls out and becomes surface parking. For the 90's and 2000's that was 5th and Race. Now its 4th and Race.

[joshknut]

I know this isn't Pogue's garage site related, but during the site crash the CBC posted an article about the historic building diagonally across from the Pogue's site. I don't have a subscription (I know, I know I'll get one the next time it's offered at $100) and I'm wondering what the plan is for this building.