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Cincinnati: Downtown: Fourth & Race (Pogue Garage) Redevelopment

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Nice! Yes. Plenty of temporary measures!


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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At the very least, they need to reopen the sidewalk. It is totally unacceptable in a Central Business District of a city to leave a sidewalk on a major street closed for an undetermined period of time while no construction is ongoing and the fate of the development is still up in the air. It is an unnecessary inconvenience to pedestrians and makes our city less walkable. This kind of thing is not tolerated in cities that actually care about pedestrians. The developer should be fined $1000 per day that the sidewalk is closed but no construction activity is taking place.

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^ They'd need to BUILD sidewalks.  There wasn't one on 4th Street (a crime in and of itself) and the bits on Race and Elm were pretty thoroughly destroyed during the demolition.  That would then have to be completely ripped out again for the new construction.  Maybe a boardwalk would be a better way to do it.  Go old school.

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Yeah, I was thinking the temporary sidewalk would be something similar to the pedestrianization of Broadway in New York, something like this. Just paint a new white line, put down some of that textured paint in the pedestrian zone to clearly mark it as the new "sidewalk", install some planters and bollards to make it extra clear to drivers. They wouldn't need to pour concrete.

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I hope it is not something where the garage gets completed and then the apartments never get started (at least for another decade) because of changing market conditions.

 

I was talking with a large lender from Columbus and he was saying how the apartment market in Columbus is getting very overbuilt and there is starting to be a huge pullback amongst some of the local lenders.

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I've discussed the market in Cincinnati with some developers and real estate folks. The consensus is we are overbuilt on high-end. Also, I hear a lot of complaints about too many 1 bedrooms. Not sure if that means there is more demand for micro, or 2 and 3 bedroom apartments. Maybe both?

 

The Cincinnati.com article is referring to it being added suddenly to tomorrows PC meeting. I read the packet addition. What is happening is it is getting the ole Port/GCRA Tax special. Once the GCRA is in the title chain, the project construction is exempt from sales tax. This is probably the change they are making to the development agreement as well. Naming the Port as the owner of part of the project.

 

Either way, it's a good sign.


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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Finally.  And I could totally see the thinking we're overbuiit on high-end apartments.  It's pretty much all that's gotten built downtown recently.  Hopefully some developers start redeveloping older buildings into apartments that are class B as I know plenty of people that would like to live downtown but can't afford any of the new places.  Also hope we get some more condos downtown since most of those seem to be going in OTR.  If they get rid of the parking minimum for downtown that would also help. 

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^ Fortunately, Cincinnati is nowhere near as overbuilt as Columbus is getting. Talking to lenders up there, things are getting put on hold and there are some developers who will be taking a bath on some properties too.

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^ Fortunately, Cincinnati is nowhere near as overbuilt as Columbus is getting. Talking to lenders up there, things are getting put on hold and there are some developers who will be taking a bath on some properties too.

 

Might be true for the current market, but Columbus is reliably growing its population by double-digit percentages each decade.

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$116 million 4th & Race project takes another step forward

By Tom Demeropolis  – Senior Staff Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Aug 17, 2018, 3:03pm EDT Updated 58 minutes ago

 

The planned $116 million mixed-use development at Fourth and Race streets in downtown Cincinnati took another step forward on Friday.

 

Cincinnati City Planning Commission unanimously approved transferring a portion of the Fourth & Race site to the city and then to the Greater Cincinnati Redevelopment Authority to facilitate a project tax increment financing for the project. The plan is to build a 14-story, mixed-use development containing four different parcels, including air lots, with 20,000 square feet of ground floor retail space owned and operated by Cincinnati Center City Development Corp., a six-floor parking garage owned by the city and operated by 3CDC, and eight stories of apartments developed by Flaherty & Collins Properties.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/08/17/116-million-4th-race-project-takes-another-step.html

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New details emerge on Fourth & Race deal

 

The new development agreement for the Fourth and Race Street apartment tower allows the project to not pay into the operations fund for the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar.

 

The new deal for the $116 million, 14-story mixed-use tower was sent to City Council on Tuesday, but Councilman David Mann declined to bring it to a vote because he wants council members to have more time to examine such agreements. Council has complained for years about receiving economic development deals from the administration and being expected to vote on them immediately without vetting the details.

 

Under the deal, the developer, Flaherty & Collins, would not have to sign a voluntary tax incentive contribution agreement (VTICA) for the streetcar. Nearly every developer building new or renovating older buildings in downtown and Over-the-Rhine has had to sign a VTICA agreement and contribute part of their savings from property tax abatements to the streetcar’s operations. The original Fourth & Race deal was signed before the VTICA program was created.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/09/04/new-details-emerge-on-fourth-race-deal.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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New details emerge on Fourth & Race deal

 

The new development agreement for the Fourth and Race Street apartment tower allows the project to not pay into the operations fund for the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar.

 

The new deal for the $116 million, 14-story mixed-use tower was sent to City Council on Tuesday, but Councilman David Mann declined to bring it to a vote because he wants council members to have more time to examine such agreements. Council has complained for years about receiving economic development deals from the administration and being expected to vote on them immediately without vetting the details.

 

Under the deal, the developer, Flaherty & Collins, would not have to sign a voluntary tax incentive contribution agreement (VTICA) for the streetcar. Nearly every developer building new or renovating older buildings in downtown and Over-the-Rhine has had to sign a VTICA agreement and contribute part of their savings from property tax abatements to the streetcar’s operations. The original Fourth & Race deal was signed before the VTICA program was created.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/09/04/new-details-emerge-on-fourth-race-deal.html

 

City on streetcar VTICA: ?‍♂️


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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New details emerge on Fourth & Race deal

 

The new development agreement for the Fourth and Race Street apartment tower allows the project to not pay into the operations fund for the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar.

 

The new deal for the $116 million, 14-story mixed-use tower was sent to City Council on Tuesday, but Councilman David Mann declined to bring it to a vote because he wants council members to have more time to examine such agreements. Council has complained for years about receiving economic development deals from the administration and being expected to vote on them immediately without vetting the details.

 

Under the deal, the developer, Flaherty & Collins, would not have to sign a voluntary tax incentive contribution agreement (VTICA) for the streetcar. Nearly every developer building new or renovating older buildings in downtown and Over-the-Rhine has had to sign a VTICA agreement and contribute part of their savings from property tax abatements to the streetcar’s operations. The original Fourth & Race deal was signed before the VTICA program was created.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/09/04/new-details-emerge-on-fourth-race-deal.html

 

Of course they dont, that is how Mayor Cranley rolls, and if you vote against this deal he will hold it over you at election time as you being anti-development.

 

EDIT: I'm trying to be better I'll strike that until more details emerge, still seems the city is acting like we are desperate for selected projects vs standing our ground and demanding everyone play ball the same way.

 

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^I think on this one I more or less read: Well they were working on it since before the VTICA Program so why should we pay into it.

 

But I think technically it got re-set so they should still need to pay into it.

 

I wonder how much that is generating currently? Doesn't it take awhile because the Auditor needs to have the updates of values first?

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The city needs to decide whether VTICA will be the source of the streetcar's funding going forward. The whole point of VTICA was that general fund revenue would not be used and that new development in downtown/OTR would pay for the streetcar via VTICA. That only works if you actually make new developments in downtown/OTR pay into the VTICA. If you're not going to do that, just eliminate the whole VTICA concept and pay for the streetcar out of the general fund. It's not that hard.

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Council gives Fourth & Race final go-ahead; here's when work begins

 

The long-delayed Fourth & Race mixed-use residential tower got the Cincinnati City Council’s final approval on Wednesday, with members passing two ordinances needed to make the $116 million project happen.

 

Objections by City Council members that the project will not pay into the account that funds the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar were not enough to sink the project. Two ordinances needed to activate the project, which has been on the drawing board since 2013, passed, with council members Chris Seelbach and P.G. Sittenfeld voting “no” on one that provided a property tax exemption for part of the project. The streetcar’s operations are funded in part by payments made by developers of new and rehabilitated buildings downtown from a reduction in their tax abatements.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/09/12/council-gives-fourth-race-final-go-ahead-heres.html


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Fourth and Race is finally moving forward, with the city upping its contribution to $9.5 million.

 

Cranley also admitted that the VTICA program, which his administration created, is completely arbitrary. All a developer needs to say is "the deal’s finances would not work [with a required VTICA payment]" and they are off the hook. Awesome.

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Fourth and Race is finally moving forward, with the city upping its contribution to $9.5 million.

 

Cranley also admitted that the VTICA program, which his administration created, is completely arbitrary. All a developer needs to say is "the deal’s finances would not work [with a required VTICA payment]" and they are off the hook. Awesome.

 

Yeah, but it's never been construed as anything else. If the developer doesn't agree to pay into the VTICA, the City can withhold tax abatements or other incentives. "Voluntary" is in the program's name... and here's how the City describes it (emphasis mine):

Developers may choose to enter into a Voluntary Tax Incentive Contribution Agreement (VTICA) and in such instances, those developers would be eligible for a maximum net tax exemption of up to 75% for up to 15 years, but the effective abatement will also be net of any contribution made pursuant to a VTICA. City Council has directed the Department of Community and Economic Development to consider contributions of 15% or more to be a substantial positive factor in reviewing abatement applications.

http://choosecincy.com/Economic-Development/Programs-Services/Incentives-Financing/Commercial-Reinvestment-Area.aspx

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^ Right, but the assumption was that in order to get a property tax abatement, you must agree to pay a certain percentage into the VTICA fund. So although it was always "voluntary" developers were basically forced to pay into it in order to get their tax abatement. What Cranley said today (and a majority of council approved) is meh, you can just have your tax abatement without paying into VTICA. It's a very dangerous prescient to set and basically guarantees that VTICA won't live up to its potential.

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I saw photos elsewhere of equipment on the site this morning.  Looks like it is really happening.

 

Can confirm. Saw that equipment when I walked by it yesterday evening around 6 pm.

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If it takes the exact same mount of time to build as the Kroger apartments, these will come on line about a year after that project.  I'm still suspicious that the delay was caused entirely to sequence these projects and prevent vacancies. 

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On 10/22/2018 at 1:40 PM, cin614 said:

No construction yet, but the prep works has started today

 

We got some action today

 

They are still working on getting permit approval. Checked today and they are close!


“All truly great thoughts are conceived while walking.”
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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1 hour ago, savadams13 said:

I have been told by two reliable sources that groundbreaking ceremony is being worked out for the site. Something should be hitting news outlets soon. 

 

Good.  Because basically zero construction has happened at the site after they announced construction was imminent 8 weeks ago. 

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^ I think GCWW is always the yellow exclamation point (conditional approval), so that would make it just the MSD comments holding them up at this point.

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1 hour ago, cin614 said:

I heard from a really good source that the Textile Building has been sold again 

 

Hudson Holdings from Florida who purchased the building about two years ago with the intention of hotel and executive housing was behind on payments to banks and note holders. The building went into receivership and yes it has been sold. Still trying to find out who purchased the building though. 

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41 minutes ago, cin614 said:

We have some action today. They have finally broke ground 

Great news! Could we at one point in the next year see possibly 3-4 cranes throughout the basin? Fourth and Race, 8th and main (assuming it is tall enough to have one as well as it starting soon after the complete demo of the old building), Fc Cincinnati’s stadium (I’m guessing they will have one, maybe even two?), Court and Walnut (May be down by the time 8th and main and Fc get started) 

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