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DC Statehood

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2 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Manhattan already has federal representation.

 

Where in the Constitution does it say a state must encompass a certain amount of area?

Let's call a spade a spade. The only reason for DC statehood is a power play. That is it. 
If it were truly about representation, that can be achieved through a variety of other means. If the argument is about getting representation for those citizens, then it is a conversation that can be had without adding a 51st state. 

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7 hours ago, X said:

DC shouldn't get representation because Cincy's representative is useless?

 

DC has a fantastic modern subway system in large part because it doesn't have representation in Congress. 

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16 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Let's call a spade a spade. The only reason for DC statehood is a power play. That is it. 
If it were truly about representation, that can be achieved through a variety of other means. If the argument is about getting representation for those citizens, then it is a conversation that can be had without adding a 51st state. 

 

On 6/26/2020 at 3:54 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

This is a reasonable compromise and alternative and worthy of discussion

 

This is why it's impossible to take you seriously.


Very Stable Genius

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17 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

What do our reps and senators actually bring us in Ohio? That's right, nothing.  Steve Chabot has been Ohio District 1's rep every term except one since 1994 and he hasn't brought us jack squat. 

 

The Guantanamo Bay Naval Base is 45 square miles.  Good thing we gave back the Panama Canal Zone or else they'd want to be a state too. 

 

Nothing posted here refutes anything I said.


Very Stable Genius

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21 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

 

This is why it's impossible to take you seriously.

Why, because I disagree with your worldview and point out the absurdities in your arguments (of which there are many)

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Until recently, Mexico City was also a federal district and had a lot of the same issues.  It didn't become a new state, but it did become an autonomous city with its own constitution and federal representation.  

 

I think whether DC becomes a new state is irrelevant.  The people deserve to have equal representation- in whatever form- just like everyone else, regardless of their political views.  Those opposed to it are gross.

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1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Why, because I disagree with your worldview and point out the absurdities in your arguments (of which there are many)

 

Lol. Good trolling attempt. Re-read your own posts to see the absurdity of yourself doing an about face on this issue in ~24 hours.


Very Stable Genius

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2 hours ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Nothing posted here refutes anything I said.

 

If representation in Congress is so important, they can join Maryland or Virginia.  Nobody can successfully argue that a resident of the District of Columbus has any sort of extraordinary needs going unmet.  Nobody can successfully argue that living on one side of the District line or another is different in any regard other than technicalities. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

DC has a fantastic modern subway system in large part because it doesn't have representation in Congress. 

It also has no downstate/upstate interests telling it it's not allowed having anything nice.

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27 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

If representation in Congress is so important, they can join Maryland or Virginia.  Nobody can successfully argue that a resident of the District of Columbus has any sort of extraordinary needs going unmet.  Nobody can successfully argue that living on one side of the District line or another is different in any regard other than technicalities. 

 

 

 

Ah yes, who can forget the British response to "Taxation without representation" being those old classic, "But you don't have any extraordinary needs going unmet!" and "Is it really that different on the other side of the Atlantic?"

Edited by jonoh81

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30 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Ah yes, who can forget the British response to "Taxation without representation" being those old classic, "But you don't have any extraordinary needs going unmet!" and "Is it really that different on the other side of the Atlantic?"

 

Name one substantive thing residents of Virginia and Maryland have that DC residents don't.  We're waiting. 

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4 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Name one substantive thing residents of Virginia and Maryland have that DC residents don't.  We're waiting. 


1. Voting representation in the House

2. Voting representation in the Senate

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3 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:


1. Voting representation in the House

2. Voting representation in the Senate

 

Which gets them...what?  They already have stuff that is the envy of everywhere else in the United States.  Huge parks, no power lines, no freeways through the heart of town, and the biggest and busiest postwar subway system. 

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3 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Which gets them...what?  They already have stuff that is the envy of everywhere else in the United States.  Huge parks, no power lines, no freeways through the heart of town, and the biggest and busiest postwar subway system. 


If the point is that citizens shouldn’t be represented in government, we might as well install a Singaporean style government. The problem with that is that Singapore is the only working example of authoritarianism, and no one would argue that it is a free society. Whereas there are dozens of examples of functioning democracies. Seriously, how is there an argument that it’s ok for some people to not be properly represented in a modern democracy?

 

Also, let’s not forget that the DC Metro is on the verge of collapse since Congress refuses to properly fund it. 
 

Back when Congress worked better, DC got nice things like the Metro. It isn’t working like that any more. 

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9 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Which gets them...what?  They already have stuff that is the envy of everywhere else in the United States.  Huge parks, no power lines, no freeways through the heart of town, and the biggest and busiest postwar subway system. 

 

How about Congress overruling DC laws?   Here are a few examples

https://www.dcvote.org/ending-congressional-interference

 

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On 6/27/2020 at 11:52 AM, freefourur said:

A constitutional amendment is not necessary to add a state to the union. The constitution provides a path for statehood. 

 

There is text in the Constitution that appears to preclude DC being a state or part of one.

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30 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Which gets them...what?  They already have stuff that is the envy of everywhere else in the United States.  Huge parks, no power lines, no freeways through the heart of town, and the biggest and busiest postwar subway system. 

 

Do you happen to live in DC?

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20 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

There is text in the Constitution that appears to preclude DC being a state or part of one.

The current proposal acknowledges that. 

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22 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I used to but a I left because I couldn't vote for a congressman.

 

You are a pretty good example of why DC should be a state or at least have voting representatives in Congress then.  I know multiple people whose move from DC was informed by this fact (including mine).  

 

The use of the Metro as a great resource for the district is a bit off.  Multiple people have died on it from gross inability to maintain it in a safe manner.  And it is useful largely for moving people from Maryland and Virginia into DC and back.  It doesn't actually connect neighborhoods in the city very well.  There are also many densely populated areas in DC with poor metro access, but that doesn't matter because it is great for getting people from the suburbs into the city and back.  It's basically useless on the weekends.

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3 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Which gets them...what?  They already have stuff that is the envy of everywhere else in the United States.  Huge parks, no power lines, no freeways through the heart of town, and the biggest and busiest postwar subway system. 

 

Not every state has the Cleveland Clinic, so why does Ohio need congressional representation?!

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2 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

I haven't been back to D.C. since they revived the streetcars but obviously those were supposed to help address that.

 

I was very excited about the streetcar, but it didn't work as well as people hoped for a variety of reasons.  It is great if you live on the H street corridor or along Benning Road, but not that useful otherwise.  It really needed to continue the route across the city, through downtown, and into Georgetown, if it was going to take off.

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11 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

Until recently, Mexico City was also a federal district and had a lot of the same issues.  It didn't become a new state, but it did become an autonomous city with its own constitution and federal representation.  

 

I think whether DC becomes a new state is irrelevant.  The people deserve to have equal representation- in whatever form- just like everyone else, regardless of their political views.  Those opposed to it are gross.

You cant compare Mexico City to DC. Different country, different Constitution. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

You cant compare Mexico City to DC. Different country, different Constitution. 

 

 

 

Incredibly deep insight.  

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Not every state has the Cleveland Clinic, so why does Ohio need congressional representation?!

 

Ohio has gambling and DC could too if Native Americans chose to open one in their Smithsonian museum on the mall. 

 

In fact, the statehood push might be financed by Steve Wynn, etc., in an effort to beat the Native Americans to the punch. 

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10 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Ohio has gambling and DC could too if Native Americans chose to open one in their Smithsonian museum on the mall. 

 

In fact, the statehood push might be financed by Steve Wynn, etc., in an effort to beat the Native Americans to the punch. 


Another really solid argument against DC statehood. /sarcasm

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13 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Another really solid argument against DC statehood. /sarcasm

 

You can tell the "DC shouldn't be a state" crowd is really flailing when they have to change their argument every few hours.


Very Stable Genius

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22 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Name one substantive thing residents of Virginia and Maryland have that DC residents don't.  We're waiting. 

 

You do realize representation, in and of itself, is a good, correct? And not only that, it is a right, enshrined in the Constitution. 

 

You seem to be becoming more and more of a troll lately. 

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On 6/27/2020 at 5:14 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

Let's call a spade a spade. The only reason for DC statehood is a power play. That is it. 
If it were truly about representation, that can be achieved through a variety of other means. If the argument is about getting representation for those citizens, then it is a conversation that can be had without adding a 51st state. 

 

Polling has been done on this and Maryland doesn't want DC. Virginia doesn't want DC. And DC doesn't want to be a part of those states. They want their own state and the Constitution gives them that right. I thought you cared about the Constitution? 

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6 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Polling has been done on this and Maryland doesn't want DC. Virginia doesn't want DC. And DC doesn't want to be a part of those states. They want their own state and the Constitution gives them that right. I thought you cared about the Constitution? 

 

Yeah, he's not real big on intellectual consistency.  More like whatever he thinks wins him the argument right this moment.

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4 hours ago, X said:

Yeah, he's not real big on intellectual consistency.  More like whatever he thinks wins him the argument right this moment.

 

There is some consistency - "If I find out the Dems support it, then it's terrible/unconstitutional/power grab."


Very Stable Genius

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On 6/27/2020 at 5:14 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

Let's call a spade a spade. The only reason for DC statehood is a power play. That is it. 
If it were truly about representation, that can be achieved through a variety of other means. If the argument is about getting representation for those citizens, then it is a conversation that can be had without adding a 51st state. 

 

Gerrymandering is a totally legal and ok thing to do, so is adding states for left-leaning areas of our country that aren't states. Call it a power play. Who cares?

 

Yes, it increases representation while GOP gerrymanders decrease representation. Yes, it's perfectly legal. No, there's noting unethical  or undemocratic about it, it will only serve to ever-so-slightly level the Senate's absurdly-slanted playing field. In spite of all of those legitimate justifications, I am perfectly happy to concede that it's a power play. Point is, the Democratic Party is on the upswing for the first time since 2006-2008, and this time they aren't going to be singing kumbaya like in '08 (before they accepted the unfortunate truth about the radical anti-democracy, anti-Americanism within the GOP), they're a whole lot wiser to the McConnell-style games, and they're going to be a whole lot more aggressive. The chickens are coming home to roost. I'm very sorry there's no GOP-leaning areas that aren't states already. If there were any left, certainly they would have been made states in 2017. Too bad! 

 

“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, we won't get fooled again.”  - George W. Bush.

Edited by mu2010

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^ The Us vs Them politics are harmful for everyone. it is a shame that many people seem to frame it (rightly so) as a Dem vs GOP battle for power and what is lost in the entire thing is about what truly is right for the "People". The "People" of DC are forgotten and really seem to be pawns in this battle. That is the sad thing. The thing is, the lack of representation in DC is a legitimate concern and it is something that could be done through compromise and bi-partisanship if either party actually cared about the people, and were not solely interested in trying to extend their power. That is the sad and pathetic thing about it. Because the compromise is in fact. 

 

If the goal is to get voting rights to the disenfranchised members of DC, the easiest and best way to do it is to incorporate the majority of it back to MD and VA. There is prior precedent for doing this as it has been done before.  The Dems win because they increase their power in the house, as well as power in the MD and VA legislatures. The GOP gets to solidify their power in the Senate on a short term basis, which is a small consolation for them.  It gives people voting rights which is the ultimate goal anyway and you can do it without creating a 51st state. 

 

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1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The Us vs Them politics are harmful for everyone.

 

Yes, that's why Barack Obama was elected on a campaign of trying to overcome Us vs Them, but "them" had other ideas. So now you're going to see a lot more assertive "Us."

 

Keep in mind, what I'm suggesting they do - add two reliably Democratic senators to a body which is heavily, heavily tilted to Republicans - is incredibly benign at worst and healthy for our political system at best.

Edited by mu2010

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1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

If the goal is to get voting rights to the disenfranchised members of DC, the easiest and best way to do it is to incorporate the majority of it back to MD and VA.

 

How is it easier or better? DC is an independent city with its own legal system etc, not built for being a part of another state. It's likely much harder to try to absorb them into a state government and completely remake their city charters, laws, institutions, etc, conform to the local government structure of Maryland. Much easier and better to be their own state.

 

Not to mention the cold hard reality. If they want to be a state (which they do), and they fulfill the constitutional requirements and congressional votes, they can be state. You have zero good arguments in this case.

Edited by mu2010

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8 hours ago, mu2010 said:

 

Yes, that's why Barack Obama was elected on a campaign of trying to overcome Us vs Them, but "them" had other ideas. So now you're going to see a lot more assertive "Us."

 

Keep in mind, what I'm suggesting they do - add two reliably Democratic senators to a body which is heavily, heavily tilted to Republicans - is incredibly benign at worst and healthy for our political system at best.

So in the end party politics is a higher priority than actually serving the people?

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48 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So in the end party politics is a higher priority than actually serving the people?

 

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-election-statehood-council-seats/96080/

Quote

"Today, nearly 80% of District voters cast a ballot for full democracy and citizenship. We pause tonight to celebrate this remarkable milestone in the District's decades-long fight for fundamental fairness," she said in a Facebook post.

 

Oh wow, looks like *the people* of D.C. want federal representation and the full rights of statehood.


Very Stable Genius

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10 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^ The Us vs Them politics are harmful for everyone. it is a shame that many people seem to frame it (rightly so) as a Dem vs GOP battle for power and what is lost in the entire thing is about what truly is right for the "People". The "People" of DC are forgotten and really seem to be pawns in this battle.

 

 

The People of DC: We want to be our own state!

 

Dems: Ok, sounds good to us. Let's do it. 

 

GOP: What!?!?! That's a power play!!

 

Dems: Well, this would increase our power in the Senate, but also it is overwhelmingly what the people of DC want. 

 

The People of DC: Yes, that! The Dems get it!

 

Brutus: I wish the Dems would think of the People of DC instead of playing politics!

 

You sound ridiculous. 

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On 6/26/2020 at 3:11 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

This is such a bad idea and purely political. 

 

On 6/26/2020 at 3:35 PM, freefourur said:

The federal district could be shrunk down to include just government functions. The rest could become it's own state. The constitution permits any territory to be admitted with approval of congress.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 3:54 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

This is a reasonable compromise and alternative and worthy of discussion

 

On 6/26/2020 at 5:33 PM, DarkandStormy said:

It's exactly what the bill does.

 

On 6/27/2020 at 5:14 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

Let's call a spade a spade. The only reason for DC statehood is a power play. That is it.  

 

9 hours ago, mu2010 said:

You have zero good arguments in this case.

 

At this point, any discussion from a certain member here is just "bickering without a point," a violation of the Current Events Notice policy.  Let's move on unless there any actual substantive arguments against DC Statehood.


Very Stable Genius

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Yeah, residents of DC are being cajoled by the national D party into thinking they're victims with their free museums, giant free events, world-class classical music performances (sometimes free), all four major sports, fantastic Amtrak service, no cell towers, no utility poles, vast intact historic and walkable neighborhoods, zero industrial pollution, easy rail access to international airports, etc., etc. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

At this point, any discussion from a certain member here is just "bickering without a point," a violation of the Current Events Notice policy.  Let's move on unless there any actual substantive arguments against DC Statehood.

 

I have to agree. 

 

If you have nothing new to add to the conversation, you're welcome to not add anything at all.

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6 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Yeah, residents of DC are being cajoled by the national D party into thinking they're victims with their free museums, giant free events, world-class classical music performances (sometimes free), all four major sports, fantastic Amtrak service, no cell towers, no utility poles, vast intact historic and walkable neighborhoods, zero industrial pollution, easy rail access to international airports, etc., etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

None of which has a thing to do with the rights of representation that we're debating on this thread.

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44 minutes ago, X said:

 

None of which has a thing to do with the rights of representation that we're debating on this thread.

 

Of course it does.  They got what every other city wants without having a representative in Congress, which means it's not important for a locality.  

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16 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Of course it does.  They got what every other city wants without having a representative in Congress, which means it's not important for a locality.  


Jake has things that I want and don’t have so he shouldn’t be allowed to vote in Congressional elections anymore. 

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