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1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

 

Unpopular take here... (and ultimately I probably would have voted yes too...)

 

In some ways I agree with the 7 that voted no. Why ensure back pay? The only motivation for Congress to get this done is to feel pressure from constituents - and they will have a lot less pressure if they know back pay will be owed. Beyond that, it may actually encourage more shutdowns in the future, knowing that they have this as a fallback. 

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with those reasons, I highly, highly doubt that they voted that way based on them. 

And in the end, people that work should get paid, whenever that end comes. 

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Ensuring back pay is good, but we all pretty much knew back pay was going to be given. The real damage is done in the short term. Missed mortgage payments. Missed credit card payments. Possibly taking money from retirement or your kids' college savings to cover weekly expenses. These things create large penalties that back pay won't reimburse.

 

Also, the federal government is now literally paying billions of dollars to federal employees to not work. Doesn't seem very fiscally conservative.

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1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

I honestly don't care who "wins" this pissing match. The thing is you may have 15% of people who would rather go to war than have a wall. you have 15%  that would pick up arms to get the wall built. You then have 70% that occupy the middle ground that either want the wall if practical or don't want the wall but would give in for other benefits such as getting the workers back to work. THe 70% is being held hostage by the 30%. The majority just want a resolution whether it involves a wall or not. 

 

No one believes you're being honest here.  You have consistently argued a position in which only Trump gets what he wants.  You have not once made the argument that Trump, who you admit started this, should be the one to end it.  How can an honest broker in a discussion not at least make the argument once that the person/people most responsible for a problem be those that fix it?  How curious. 

And didn't you just argue that Trump has the backing of like 45% of the country?  Is it 15% or 45%?  The majority may want jet packs and a 6-month vacation, but this is not how the world works.  There are bigger stakes at play than merely appeasing whatever majority exists in the general public, which is often highly misinformed or completely ignorant to the facts of any given situation.  Trump is a national threat and a likely American traitor.  Why you think it would be in the nation's best interest to just give in to him and encourage a repeat of this exact situation the next time he doesn't get what he wants is a true head scratcher. 

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So you are part of the 15% of zealots out there. Yes, everyone knows that about you already.  

 

Your point is Trump started this, he is not getting his way, so he needs to pick up and go home and say "I lost". That would of course be nice, but as you point out, there are a lot of people who want 6 months vacation and jet packs. Point being, at the present time, Trump is not going to walk away. 2-3 months from now who knows, but to solve the problem now, he is not gong to so it is left to the other people in the room to figure out a way.  

 

You seem content in letting the government remain shut just to prove a point to Trump. That is fine if that is how you feel, but in the meantime, a lot of people suffer. We have the 15% fringe in both parties running he show right now, that is not how Congress was intended to run.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

We have the 15% fringe in both parties running he show right now, that is not how Congress was intended to run.

 

You keep mentioning this "15%" figure without citing anything.  You just pulled it out of your a**.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2019/01/11/americans-dont-want-trumps-border-wall-heres-what-they-think-should-happen-instead/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.183bef57e112

 

Quote

Fewer than half our respondents were convinced by the argument that a wall would prevent potential threats from coming into the country and would strengthen U.S. borders. Nearly two-thirds, including 4 in 10 Republicans, were persuaded by the counterargument: Because migrants can always find alternative routes to crossing the border, there are better methods for deterring illegal entry.

 

Quote

Among all Americans, 58 percent oppose building a wall between the U.S. and Mexico

 

Edited by DarkandStormy

Very Stable Genius

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1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:

It is an approximation used to prove a point. It is like when Hillary called 1/2 all voters deplorable and Mitt Romney had his 47% remark.

 

Since you are too hung up on the number, the point was that you have a small amount of people on the radical right, and small amount of idiot progressives out there that will never cut a deal, and then you have everyone else holding varying positions in the middle who would like to forge some sort of compromise and deal.

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2 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

It is an approximation used to prove a point. It is like when Hillary called 1/2 all voters deplorable and Mitt Romney had his 47% remark.

 

Since you are too hung up on the number, the point was that you have a small amount of people on the radical right, and small amount of idiot progressives out there that will never cut a deal, and then you have everyone else holding varying positions in the middle who would like to forge some sort of compromise and deal.

 

Did...did you read any of the stats I cited or still sticking to your approximation?  6 in 10 Americans don't want a wall.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/11/america-government-shutdown-trump-federal-workers

 

69% say the wall shouldn't be a priority.  So you are crafting this narrative that "70% of everyone else holds varying positions in the middle."  That's false.  70% don't think a wall should be a priority.

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Very Stable Genius

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^ Also, Hilary never called half of all voters deplorable.  This is what the conservative victim culture warriors were screaming but it is not what she said. 

Edited by freefourur

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2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So you are part of the 15% of zealots out there. Yes, everyone knows that about you already.  

 

Your point is Trump started this, he is not getting his way, so he needs to pick up and go home and say "I lost". That would of course be nice, but as you point out, there are a lot of people who want 6 months vacation and jet packs. Point being, at the present time, Trump is not going to walk away. 2-3 months from now who knows, but to solve the problem now, he is not gong to so it is left to the other people in the room to figure out a way.  

 

You seem content in letting the government remain shut just to prove a point to Trump. That is fine if that is how you feel, but in the meantime, a lot of people suffer. We have the 15% fringe in both parties running he show right now, that is not how Congress was intended to run.

 

 

Ok Neville. Appease to your heart’s content.  I won’t.  

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70% don't think a wall should be a priority. Think about what that means. It does not mean the progressive leftist position that they don't want a wall come hell or high water. It means that given the preference between having a wall or not having a wall they prefer not to have a wall. I think that is an accurate statement and I would agree most of America holds that position.

 

Now, the question comes, at what point is not having a wall important? You start to lose some of that 69% when you have a shutdown. People have varying priorities. Now, maybe right now, it is still 60-40 against the wall, but varying degrees of opinion can change depending on circumstances. Some people are against the wall but would gladly give up that position for the Dream Act or Amnesty. WHen you boil it down, very few on each side would be so set in their position that they would not be willing to bargain something to get something in return.

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Why won't some of the "I think the wall is a priority" people stop supporting the President's hostage negotiations and demand the government be funded and return to normal?

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13 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ Also, Hilary never called half of all voters deplorable.  This is what the conservative victim culture warriors were screaming but it is not what she said. 

 

no, she said half of Trump voters belong in a basket of deplorables, which comes to  31,492, 414 people. Close enough. And you wonder why she lost. 

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5 minutes ago, eastvillagedon said:

 

no, she said half of Trump voters belong in a basket of deplorables, which comes to  31,492, 414 people. Close enough. And you wonder why she lost. 

 

It was a bad thing to say but she wasn't wrong though.  

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12 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Why won't some of the "I think the wall is a priority" people stop supporting the President's hostage negotiations and demand the government be funded and return to normal?

Pragmatically speaking, when you don't receive a paycheck, your opinion on whether they should build a wall or not changes. Most important thing is getting paid at that point.

 

The people who think the wall is a priority are so dead set on their positions and entrenched that they will go to their graves rather than cave. They are confronted by an opposite group on the left. Those groups on each side are the ones calling the shots now.

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3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Point being, at the present time, Trump is not going to walk away. 2-3 months from now who knows, but to solve the problem now, he is not gong to so it is left to the other people in the room to figure out a way.  

2

 

OK, so Trump storms out of the room.  Congress, which is the branch of government with the power of the purse anyway, needs to get in a room and work something out that can override a Presidential veto. 

 

Funding bills must originate in the House, and as Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi allowed bills to fund the government to come to the floor for a vote, and they passed.  And the House passed bills that previously passed in the last Congress, when Republicans controlled both the House and the Senate.   She didn't change the funding priorities to favor Democratic Party positions. (Which to some would signal fairness and an attempt to resolve the crisis, and to others would no doubt signal weakness.)  Funding for the DHS remains the only sticking point, and the Democrats have offered (and passed a bill to carry it out) to fund that department at its current level to allow for another 3 weeks of negotiations (and that time is rapidly evaporating).

 

But McConnel refuses to negotiate.  Or even allow any funding bills to come to the floor of the Senate for debate, discussion, and votes. Which is particularly ridiculous when that means refusing to vote on bills that previously passed in both the House and last year's Republican-controlled Senate.  The Senate is an essential party to the final decision and the Republican Party has refused to stay in the room -- who do you negotiate with? 

 

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‘Never been more depressed’: Trump kills Graham effort to end shutdown

The South Carolina senator and his GOP allies had been pushing to reopen the government and begin a broad immigration debate in the Senate.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/10/republican-senators-government-shutdown-1096118


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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Even Senate Republicans are trying to reopen the govt while they negotiate a deal, but Trump won't budge. I wish the Democrats would stop obstructing.

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7 minutes ago, eastvillagedon said:

^maybe he can convince Schumer and Nancy Pelousy to stop the obstructionism.:classic_sad:

 

This is all on Donnie.

 

 

and Mitch too

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12 minutes ago, eastvillagedon said:

^maybe he can convince Schumer and Nancy Pelousy to stop the obstructionism.:classic_sad:

 

You mean by passing a budget that Senate had already passed 100-0? Check.

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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52 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

You mean by passing a budget that Senate had already passed 100-0? Check.

 

If they reach a veto-proof compromise, guess who's going to be left holding the bucket of poop.... 

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It's starting. More closings of airport security checkpoints may finally create the pressure for Trump to reopen the government
https://www-nytimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/nyregion/tsa-shutdown-airport.amp.html


"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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5 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Dems need to stop obstructing

 

Sending a bill to the Senate that Democrats know won't be voted upon because it does not meet the requisite requests is indeed an obstruction. It's all for show and does nothing but waste the time of everyone involved. That's time that could otherwise be spent coming to an agreement with the President and Senate Republicans.

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2 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

Sending a bill to the Senate that Democrats know won't be voted upon because it does not meet the requisite requests is indeed an obstruction. It's all for show and does nothing but waste the time of everyone involved. That's time that could otherwise be spent coming to an agreement with the President and Senate Republicans.

I remember when the Republican House sent dozens of bills to the Senate to end the ACA, knowing that nothing would happen because of the Obama veto. At least here, the House Dems know that a similar bill passed the Senate in December 100-0. If it was brought to a vote, it would be passed. We wouldn't know if it could get over a veto unless we have a vote.

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39 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

 

Sending a bill to the Senate that Democrats know won't be voted upon because it does not meet the requisite requests is indeed an obstruction. It's all for show and does nothing but waste the time of everyone involved. That's time that could otherwise be spent coming to an agreement with the President and Senate Republicans.

 

 

If the senate can't pass this bill why won't Mitch let them vote on it.  Mitch and Donnie are obstructing.  The house passed a bipartisan bill that was agreed to before Trump reneged when Ann Coulter unfriended him. 

Edited by freefourur

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22 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Since you are too hung up on the number, the point was that you have a small amount of people on the radical right, and small amount of idiot progressives out there that will never cut a deal, and then you have everyone else holding varying positions in the middle who would like to forge some sort of compromise and deal.

 

What is the deal? It seems like Trump is wholly disinterested in cutting any form of deal- he wants the full funding for the wall, or there is no deal. That is not a compromise, not a deal. What is Trump willing to concede in order to get his wall funding? So far, I haven't seem any sort of offer from Trump, just demands that congress gives him exactly what he wants.

 

I think if Trump said he would allow the Dreamers to become citizens in exchange for wall funding, we might get somewhere. There has to be some sort of give and take. Dems were willing to provide 1.3 billion in funding for border security, but that was seen as a non-starter. Trump doesn't want to negotiate a deal; it's his way or the highway, and I think he'd rather have the news media focused on the government shutdown than on the myriad of scandals swirling around his presidency. We aren't dealing with an honest person who wants to get a deal done. This is an ego and megalomaniac who is satisfied with nothing less than getting exactly what he wants. The Democrats are not at fault for not capitulating to this type of negotiation. Donald said he'd proudly own the shutdown, so time to follow through, Trump. Unless the president was [gasp] lying, and won't proudly own the shutdown of his own creation! 

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This isn't a negotiation, it's a hostage situation.  If the Democrats give in, the Republicans will just hold the entire gov't hostage each and every time they want something.

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45 minutes ago, edale said:

 

What is the deal? It seems like Trump is wholly disinterested in cutting any form of deal- he wants the full funding for the wall, or there is no deal. That is not a compromise, not a deal. What is Trump willing to concede in order to get his wall funding? So far, I haven't seem any sort of offer from Trump, just demands that congress gives him exactly what he wants.

 

I think if Trump said he would allow the Dreamers to become citizens in exchange for wall funding, we might get somewhere. There has to be some sort of give and take. Dems were willing to provide 1.3 billion in funding for border security, but that was seen as a non-starter. Trump doesn't want to negotiate a deal; it's his way or the highway, and I think he'd rather have the news media focused on the government shutdown than on the myriad of scandals swirling around his presidency. We aren't dealing with an honest person who wants to get a deal done. This is an ego and megalomaniac who is satisfied with nothing less than getting exactly what he wants. The Democrats are not at fault for not capitulating to this type of negotiation. Donald said he'd proudly own the shutdown, so time to follow through, Trump. Unless the president was [gasp] lying, and won't proudly own the shutdown of his own creation! 

I think the Dreamer issue may be the way out of this for everyone. They were close last year but he backed off because the hard line Republicans in the House would not agree. The Senate would have been on board to pass it. He would have had 25 Billion for the wall. He balked because the far right of the House kept that from happening. Now the far right has less power in the House so it may actually get somewhere. The Dems save face because they were willing to give $25 billion for the Dreamers and instead only ended up giving $5 Billion.

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1 minute ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I think the Dreamer issue may be the way out of this for everyone. They were close last year but he backed off because the hard line Republicans in the House would not agree. The Senate would have been on board to pass it. He would have had 25 Billion for the wall. He balked because the far right of the House kept that from happening. Now the far right has less power in the House so it may actually get somewhere. The Dems save face because they were willing to give $25 billion for the Dreamers and instead only ended up giving $5 Billion.

 

The Art of the Deal. 

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^ Both sides can claim some sort of victory by it.  You know Trump will of course and you only get a partial wall in the process.

Those that want a wall get some of a wall. Those against the wall can compromise by only having 1/4 of a wall.  The Art of the Deal.

Edited by Brutus_buckeye

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5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^ Both sides can claim some sort of victory by it.  You know Trump will of course and you only get a partial wall in the process.

Those that want a wall get some of a wall. Those against the wall can compromise by only having 1/4 of a wall.  The Art of the Deal.

But he could've had the whole thing last year.  He is a terrible negotiator. 

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1 minute ago, freefourur said:

But he could've had the whole thing last year.  He is a terrible negotiator. 

 

Only rubes believe he's actually good at negotiating.  Virtually every person who has interacted him either while he was President, bankrupting a casino, running a fraud university, or engaging in illegal business practices has said he's a moron, especially at negotiating.

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Very Stable Genius

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2 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

Only rubes believe he's actually good at negotiating.  Virtually every person who has interacted him either while he was President, bankrupting a casino, running a fraud university, or engaging in illegal business practices has said he's a moron, especially at negotiating.

 

 

Where would Donnie be in life if not for his daddy? My guess selling used cars and one of those buy her pay here lots. 

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@freefourur  so quick question.

 

If you, being against the wall had the opportunity to give $25 Billion for the wall a year ago in exchange for the Dream Act, only to have the same opportunity a year later only for $20 billion less, would you take the deal to open the government?

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