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They're complaining due to the stress of not knowing when your next paycheck is coming, not that they all-of-a-sudden ran out of money.  Any normal middle-class human being would be freaking out about that

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Not putting the onus on Dems, putting onus on both sides. If you want the mantle of leadership figure out a solution. Just because they passed a bill they wanted on their terms in the House does not mean they have done their part, far from it. It is just posturing.  it is no different than the 10 times the GOP repealed the ACA when Obama was in office.

 

Leadership is figuring out a solution. WHat was passed is not a palatable solution to the other side, so it means nothing.

Figure out a way to actually solve the problem.  

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Just now, Brutus_buckeye said:

Not putting the onus on Dems, putting onus on both sides. If you want the mantle of leadership figure out a solution. Just because they passed a bill they wanted on their terms in the House does not mean they have done their part, far from it. It is just posturing.  it is no different than the 10 times the GOP repealed the ACA when Obama was in office.

 

Leadership is figuring out a solution. WHat was passed is not a palatable solution to the other side, so it means nothing.

Figure out a way to actually solve the problem.  

The blame is on Donnie and Mitch.  No one else is to blame for this. 

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5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Not putting the onus on Dems, putting onus on both sides. If you want the mantle of leadership figure out a solution. Just because they passed a bill they wanted on their terms in the House does not mean they have done their part, far from it. It is just posturing. 

 

It is quite literally the exact same bill that McConell allowed in the Senate in December that was passed unanimously.

Edited by DarkandStormy
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^ Donnie was responsible for creating the mess. But both sides are equally responsible for getting us out of the mess. Donnie is solely to blame for starting it. The longer this drags on means both sides have blood on their hands because either side could come up with solutions to end it. Failure to do so is a lack of leadership

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6 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^ Donnie was responsible for creating the mess. But both sides are equally responsible for getting us out of the mess. Donnie is solely to blame for starting it. The longer this drags on means both sides have blood on their hands because either side could come up with solutions to end it. Failure to do so is a lack of leadership

You to seem think Donnie is a good faith actor in this, willing to negotiate honestly.  This is why your logic is absurd.

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@Brutus_buckeye What are your thoughts on this hypothetical: Dems shutting down the government in 2021 and refusing to reopen until Republicans give in to help pass single-payer healthcare legislation? Who is to blame if the government stays closed for a long time? This isn't the way to negotiate, it's a hostage situation, or essentially bullying.

Edited by 10albersa
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14 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^ No, never said that, but that does not excuse the need to find a solution. that is what leadership is all about

Leadership is trying figure out how to appease a madman holding the government hostage?

 

Guess by your definition of leadership Trump, McConnell, and all Congressional Republicans aren't leaders.

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Exactly. It depends on where the line is for everyone. Is $5 billion worth the giant pissing match that is going on? That is a matter of who you ask and perspective. If you are an out of work employee, you may have a different opinion than if you may be a staunch progressive. If the whole idea of the wall at any costs is a non-starter, then of course you dig your heels in. To me, I would hope that some extractions in immigration can come from the wall such as the Dream Act, Visa reform, etc.  From a negotiating stand point, the downside to drawing a line in the sand is that you better be pretty much prepared to give away the house to defend it.  There are opportunities for both sides to exert true leadership here.

The most concerning thing that I hear fro both sides is the fact that they do not want the other side to come away with what can be perceived to be a legislative win. When we are talking about what is good for the country in terms of which side wins or loses, then everyone loses

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8 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

Leadership is trying figure out how to appease a madman holding the government hostage?

 

Guess by your definition of leadership Trump, McConnell, and all Congressional Republicans aren't leaders.


 

They do a shitty job too. This is one of the reasons why they lost control of the house.

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2 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

At this rate it's likely we'll end up with Trump declaring a national emergency and building the wall anyways.

 

And if he does that, I'll be in a position where I'd be compelled to vote for the Democratic nominee for president in 2020, even if that person were a foreign-born individual under the age of 35, despite the almost certainly fatal effect on getting the kind of Supreme Court I believe the country needs and the kind of people that would almost certainly be appointed to lead at the Departments of Education, Justice, and others that I care greatly about.

 

1 hour ago, taestell said:

The fact of the matter is the man who claimed to be the world's best dealmaker is incapable of even having a conversation about making a deal. Anyone who believes he is a great dealmaker is a total sucker.

 

Well, walking away from a deal is of course one negotiating strategy.  Not saying it will work for Trump in this case, of course.

 

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The fact of the matter is Trump is going to be around until 2020, so Dems have to find a way to deal with him. (If the Dems end game to the shutdown is impeachment, then the workers are out of work for months and likely until 2020, so that is not a great strategy to end the shutdown)

 

so the question is 1) What the Dems have to give up in order for Trump to drop his stupid demand for a wall or 2) What can the Dems extract from Trump so that he can claim a phyrric victory by building his stupid wall.

 

Those are two good questions.  But there is a third.  And that is that if the shutdown continues and the pain increases, what effect does it have on the electoral landscape in 2020?  The Dems want those federal workers back at work, but they want unified control of the government even more.  If the shutdown does indeed turn out to be painful over the long term, and the blame for that is laid at Trump's feet, then the short-term pain for the Democrats is worth it--they can hope either that the political environment becomes so hostile to the shutdown that McConnell has no choice but to cave on bringing a funding bill to the floor and getting veto-proof majorities for it, or they can hope that Trump holds out shutting down parts of the federal government all the way to 2020 and then causes another, larger, blue wave.  Trump's hope, obviously, is similar but opposite, i.e., that he's the one with more than half of public sentiment at his back and that he'll either get the wall or reestablish unified control of the government in 2020 with majorities that will give it to him.  I strongly doubt he has majority support (just the enthusiastic support of his hardcore restrictionist supporters, who are nothing approaching a majority).

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1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

 

Well, when you are an elected official, your job is to figure out a way around the crises. as @DarkandStormy pointed out, there are 800k employees out of work because of a giant pissing match going on. 

The fact of the matter is Trump is going to be around until 2020, so Dems have to find a way to deal with him. (If the Dems end game to the shutdown is impeachment, then the workers are out of work for months and likely until 2020, so that is not a great strategy to end the shutdown)

 

so the question is 1) What the Dems have to give up in order for Trump to drop his stupid demand for a wall or 2) What can the Dems extract from Trump so that he can claim a phyrric victory by building his stupid wall.

 

Yes, Trump may have created this current crises, but the Dems bear responsibility for figuring out a solution out of it. It is part of being a leader. If they bear no responsibility, then they do not deserve the mantle of leadership

 

 

 

It's interesting that not only do you admit Trump and Republicans created the mess, but you seem to think that somehow translates into Democrats being responsible for fixing it.  Is that what conservatives call personal responsibility? Furthermore, curiously, your entire solution all ultimately rests on Trump getting exactly what he wants.  I wonder why that is? 

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1 hour ago, eastvillagedon said:

maybe someone can explain this: if today is the first day that federal employees affected by the shutdown will not be getting a paycheck, how is it that so many of them have been claiming to be suffering financially already?? :classic_wink:

 

A lot of families live paycheck to paycheck.  Many spend into debt just on basic needs counting on another check to keep going.  If they're already on the edge, they're definitely already in trouble.  It's weird how difficult this stuff is for Trumpers to figure out considering so many are in that exact same situation.  I guess you're not, and since empathy is a foreign concept, you don't get it. 

 

 

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^  Do you not elect your representatives to be leaders? Aren't your leaders responsible for making the tough decisions?

 

You seem to want to just point the finger and cast blame and then walk away and act like the person who started it will fix it or else they will be voted out of office. Fact is, the vast majority of the GOP is not going anywhere in 2020 or beyond. Just the way the Senate is set up.  -

 

Point is, when you are in a crisis, it does not matter who started it, the goal is to solve the problem. Too many people are worried about the optics of what happens if they compromise as opposed to the optics of those who are truly suffering because of the poor decision making of the elected leaders. When the MO of both sides is to prevent the other party from getting some perceived PR benefit out of the deal, then that is a complete utter failure of leadership on that party.  Personal responsibility is assuming your role as a leader and working to find common ground. It is doing your job. That is what personal responsibility is. 

 

My solution does not rely on Trump getting what he wants. I don't care if they build the wall or if they don't build the wall. However, if the path of least resistance and pain is to give in on the issue, then let him have the damn wall. If that means a Dream Act, then I am all for that tradeoff.  When you draw a line in the sand such as this, there will come a time when you will give away the house to protect that position. Real leaders would see this as an opportunity. Are Chuckles and Nancy real leaders?

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1 minute ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

if the path of least resistance and pain is to give in on the issue, then let him have the damn wall.

 

Do you have kids?

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21 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

It's interesting that not only do you admit Trump and Republicans created the mess, but you seem to think that somehow translates into Democrats being responsible for fixing it.  Is that what conservatives call personal responsibility? Furthermore, curiously, your entire solution all ultimately rests on Trump getting exactly what he wants.  I wonder why that is? 

 

And your solution rests on him getting nothing of what he wants (and probably indicted on top of it), amirite?

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^ Yes, and I recognize that you need to pick your battles sometimes. Give in on something small, hold firm on the major stuff.

 

I get it, To some people the wall is a small matter, to others the perception of the wall is the most significant thing that has ever challenged our country and is bigger than the civil war and world wars combined. I think most people would fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. 

 

You can be against the wall, but at what cost? and on the other side, the same question, you can be for the wall but at what cost?

Is each side's ego big enough that they are willing to destroy everything over this giant pissing match.

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10 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

And your solution rests on him getting nothing of what he wants (and probably indicted on top of it), amirite?

Presidents don't usually get what they want if congress doesn't agree to fund it.  That's how it works. 

 

Donnie could've had $25B for his wall but he didn't want to do anything on DACA.  How do you negotiate with someone that is afraid of Ann Coulter's tweets. 

Edited by freefourur
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15 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Presidents don't usually get what they want if congress doesn't agree to fund it.  That's how it works. 

 

Of course that's how it works.  But in this case, Congress (or at least many in it) want to fund something (just not the wall).  If Congress wanted to shut down the federal government, they could deny the president appropriations for as long as they chose.

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3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

^  Do you not elect your representatives to be leaders? Aren't your leaders responsible for making the tough decisions?

 

You seem to want to just point the finger and cast blame and then walk away and act like the person who started it will fix it or else they will be voted out of office. Fact is, the vast majority of the GOP is not going anywhere in 2020 or beyond. Just the way the Senate is set up.  -

 

Point is, when you are in a crisis, it does not matter who started it, the goal is to solve the problem. Too many people are worried about the optics of what happens if they compromise as opposed to the optics of those who are truly suffering because of the poor decision making of the elected leaders. When the MO of both sides is to prevent the other party from getting some perceived PR benefit out of the deal, then that is a complete utter failure of leadership on that party.  Personal responsibility is assuming your role as a leader and working to find common ground. It is doing your job. That is what personal responsibility is. 

 

My solution does not rely on Trump getting what he wants. I don't care if they build the wall or if they don't build the wall. However, if the path of least resistance and pain is to give in on the issue, then let him have the damn wall. If that means a Dream Act, then I am all for that tradeoff.  When you draw a line in the sand such as this, there will come a time when you will give away the house to protect that position. Real leaders would see this as an opportunity. Are Chuckles and Nancy real leaders?

 

But you're not just talking about blame.  You're talking about having the Democrats not only solve the problem they didn't start, but solve it by giving in and rewarding those who did.  That's BS, and given your bias towards Republicans in general, highly suspicious logic.

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3 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

And your solution rests on him getting nothing of what he wants (and probably indicted on top of it), amirite?

 

No. My solution is that border security can be improved without a wall that doesn't work and is entirely based on racist hysteria formed on multiple lies.  My solution is to vote for and support people that wouldn't be pulling such stunts in the first place.   

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"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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17 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

Such as?

 

 

Read the rest....

 

Edited by KJP

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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19 hours ago, Gramarye said:

 

Such as?

 

More agents, better training and better technology.  I would also like to see some kind of actual processing centers in place that are prepared to handle larger groups of refugees.  The cages and poor conditions are inexcusable.  And of course I would like to see actual policy reform, which is a much bigger issue altogether than the long-declining border problems.  And with all policy, I want to see both common sense and empathy as a fundamental part of any policy.  These are still human beings, not animals. 

Edited by jonoh81
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Wow. I hope the air traffic controllers are invited too...

 

Edited by KJP

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" -- Lady Liberty

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On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 7:32 PM, jonoh81 said:

 

But you're not just talking about blame.  You're talking about having the Democrats not only solve the problem they didn't start, but solve it by giving in and rewarding those who did.  That's BS, and given your bias towards Republicans in general, highly suspicious logic.

So here is the big picture though. In the latest WSJ poll 52% blamed Trump for the shutdown. Pretty obvious answer given that he said he would own the shutdown from the beginning. But here is the interesting part. 32% blamed Congressional Democrats and 7% blamed Congressional Republicans. Ok, you say, logical too given that Dems and Trump are the 2 power brokers on the issue here (ignoring McConnells role for now).

 

Trump pretty much has that firewall of say 43-44% hard core support. There is really not much he stands to lose by prolonging the fight. He is pretty much at his rock bottom politically right now, so he has little political incentive to negotiate and compromise. He is who he is and people love him or hate him and I don't think there is much of a middle ground there. But the longer this goes on, it appears that Congressional Democrats are going to take the fire and Congressional Republicans will emerge unscathed. The Congressional Republicans will be the ones who benefit most from this no matter what happens, so they can just sit back and let Trump and Pelosi engage in their pissing match over the wall because the people who are going to blame Trump for this already have and after getting nowhere there, they will train their sights on the next target, Congressional Dems.

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1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So here is the big picture though. In the latest WSJ poll 52% blamed Trump for the shutdown. Pretty obvious answer given that he said he would own the shutdown from the beginning. But here is the interesting part. 32% blamed Congressional Democrats and 7% blamed Congressional Republicans. Ok, you say, logical too given that Dems and Trump are the 2 power brokers on the issue here (ignoring McConnells role for now).

 

Trump pretty much has that firewall of say 43-44% hard core support. There is really not much he stands to lose by prolonging the fight. He is pretty much at his rock bottom politically right now, so he has little political incentive to negotiate and compromise. He is who he is and people love him or hate him and I don't think there is much of a middle ground there. But the longer this goes on, it appears that Congressional Democrats are going to take the fire and Congressional Republicans will emerge unscathed. The Congressional Republicans will be the ones who benefit most from this no matter what happens, so they can just sit back and let Trump and Pelosi engage in their pissing match over the wall because the people who are going to blame Trump for this already have and after getting nowhere there, they will train their sights on the next target, Congressional Dems.

 

I honestly couldn't give less of a crap who blames who.  I am not ignorant to who is actually responsible.  Nor I am in agreement Democrats should give in because they risk popularity.  Doing what is right, a concept that conservatives seem to be completely oblivious of or actively hostile to, is far more important.  Trump is a traitorous POS that is using the wall fight to deflect the ongoing chaos and scandal building in his administration.  The Democrats will never have as much on the line as Trump does or those that support him.  You are not going to sit there once again and act like you're an unbiased bystander offering advice.  You want Trump to win.  I hope Democrats stand their ground against this madman, because history is going to remember it even if a bunch of stupid people in the public won't. 

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10 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

I honestly couldn't give less of a crap who blames who.  I am not ignorant to who is actually responsible.  Nor I am in agreement Democrats should give in because they risk popularity.  Doing what is right, a concept that conservatives seem to be completely oblivious of or actively hostile to, is far more important.  Trump is a traitorous POS that is using the wall fight to deflect the ongoing chaos and scandal building in his administration.  The Democrats will never have as much on the line as Trump does or those that support him.  You are not going to sit there once again and act like you're an unbiased bystander offering advice.  You want Trump to win.  I hope Democrats stand their ground against this madman, because history is going to remember it even if a bunch of stupid people in the public won't. 

Trump has not been negotiating in good faith.  Even if the Dems give in he'll come back with more demands to reopen the government.  Give him nothing.  I suggest the house passes another funding bill removing all border security funding.  Make Trump beg for the $1.3B. 

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On 1/12/2019 at 4:55 PM, KJP said:

Wow. I hope the air traffic controllers are invited too...

 

 

Unpopular take here... (and ultimately I probably would have voted yes too...)

 

In some ways I agree with the 7 that voted no. Why ensure back pay? The only motivation for Congress to get this done is to feel pressure from constituents - and they will have a lot less pressure if they know back pay will be owed. Beyond that, it may actually encourage more shutdowns in the future, knowing that they have this as a fallback. 

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^ I actually agree with that. A better bill to pass would prohibit government shutdowns in the first place.  If a budget is not agreed to then funding should continue at existing levels until there is an agreement. 

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11 minutes ago, freefourur said:

^ I actually agree with that. A better bill to pass would prohibit government shutdowns in the first place.  If a budget is not agreed to then funding should continue at existing levels until there is an agreement. 

 

The only issue I have with continuing the funding is that it ups the ante toward more debt ceiling showdowns in the future. Otherwise, it is a good idea

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Just now, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

The only issue I have with continuing the funding is that it ups the ante toward more debt ceiling showdowns in the future. Otherwise, it is a good idea

Debt ceilings should increase automatically. That should be part of the legislation to end shutdowns.  If one wants to decrease deficits, they do it with a new budget that can pass congress.

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10 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

I honestly couldn't give less of a crap who blames who.  I am not ignorant to who is actually responsible.  Nor I am in agreement Democrats should give in because they risk popularity.  Doing what is right, a concept that conservatives seem to be completely oblivious of or actively hostile to, is far more important.  Trump is a traitorous POS that is using the wall fight to deflect the ongoing chaos and scandal building in his administration.  The Democrats will never have as much on the line as Trump does or those that support him.  You are not going to sit there once again and act like you're an unbiased bystander offering advice.  You want Trump to win.  I hope Democrats stand their ground against this madman, because history is going to remember it even if a bunch of stupid people in the public won't. 

 

I honestly don't care who "wins" this pissing match. The thing is you may have 15% of people who would rather go to war than have a wall. you have 15%  that would pick up arms to get the wall built. You then have 70% that occupy the middle ground that either want the wall if practical or don't want the wall but would give in for other benefits such as getting the workers back to work. THe 70% is being held hostage by the 30%. The majority just want a resolution whether it involves a wall or not. 

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7 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

I honestly don't care who "wins" this pissing match. The thing is you may have 15% of people who would rather go to war than have a wall. you have 15%  that would pick up arms to get the wall built. You then have 70% that occupy the middle ground that either want the wall if practical or don't want the wall but would give in for other benefits such as getting the workers back to work. THe 70% is being held hostage by the 30%. The majority just want a resolution whether it involves a wall or not. 

 

This is well said, @Brutus_buckeye

 

Problem is, the President is in the 15%, and ipso facto, the GOP Senate is as well, as they won't send anything to him that won't get signed - despite the fact that most GOP Senators want this thing to be done and wouldnt demand a wall. 

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I must've missed the part of the constitution that says the bills must not be passed in the Senate unless the President will sign them. 

Edited by freefourur
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On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 4:00 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

Personal responsibility is assuming your role as a leader and working to find common ground. It is doing your job. That is what personal responsibility is. 

 

 Are Chuckles and Nancy real leaders?

 

This back and forth has gone on for the better part of a week and you have yet to ask if Turtle and the Russian Asset are real leaders.

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