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And Canadians aren't as militaristic when it comes to individual property rights, so things like urban growth boundaries and regionalization were more acceptable in Canada than here. But that shouldn't be considered a general statement. Some cities were more successful with UGBs than others. Hamilton and Windsor were not. London and Toronto tended to be more successful with them. Kitchener-Waterloo was mixed. Look at a satellite map of a Canadian metro area, and at how development occurs on one side of a principal street but not on the other. That's a UGB at work. Or, in London, the regional government is prohibiting further office developments in the suburbs and requiring them to be only in downtown London. Could you imagine an Ohio county or the State of Ohio doing something like that and not get sued?

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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On 10/10/2018 at 10:48 PM, GCrites80s said:

If sprawl was really that "natural" then Canada would look just like the U.S.

 

Lower population and a different mindset.   Canadians asked nicely for their independence.   We took ours.   Mindsets are inherited.

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On 10/11/2018 at 3:52 PM, KJP said:

And Canadians aren't as militaristic when it comes to individual property rights, so things like urban growth boundaries and regionalization were more acceptable in Canada than here. But that shouldn't be considered a general statement. Some cities were more successful with UGBs than others. Hamilton and Windsor were not. London and Toronto tended to be more successful with them. Kitchener-Waterloo was mixed. Look at a satellite map of a Canadian metro area, and at how development occurs on one side of a principal street but not on the other. That's a UGB at work. Or, in London, the regional government is prohibiting further office developments in the suburbs and requiring them to be only in downtown London. Could you imagine an Ohio county or the State of Ohio doing something like that and not get sued?

 

Sued?   The state would never in a million years do it, nor would they let a county.

 

The suburbs are split between the major parties and that gives them clout beyond their numbers in Columbus.

 

You're 200% correct about the national character,  though you could easily have left out the word "property".

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On 10/10/2018 at 9:50 PM, KJP said:

 

They couldn't move to the cities if they wanted to. Read about the postwar housing shortages and how the government provided financial assistance to help people buy or build new homes. That's what created the suburbs and that financial assistance became institutionalized, creating new communities after older ones wore out since we prefer to spend tax dollars on replacing communities rather than rebuilding them.

 

 For the most part, they didn't want to.   They wanted what they considered the best of both words, which for my grandpa was the current site of Fun N' Stuff in Macedonia.  

 

The World War II veterans had had their fill of "density" as well.

 

Eventually it became a cultural trend, and a perfect storm of sorts.

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1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

 

 For the most part, they didn't want to.   They wanted what they considered the best of both words, which for my grandpa was the current site of Fun N' Stuff in Macedonia.  

 

The World War II veterans had had their fill of "density" as well.

 

Eventually it became a cultural trend, and a perfect storm of sorts.

 

Of course, because they weren't paying full price for living in the suburbs.  I'd pick the Cadillac too if I didn't have to pay full price for it. While the suburbs got state and federal funds for new roads and market-rate housing, the mother cities and their transit systems, roads/bridges, and housing programs had to fend for themselves. Oh, and the Great Migration was just starting. Conservatives say "let the free market determine things" except when it benefits them. The free market did build cities once upon a time. It did it before the New Deal, and it built them with walkable density, electricity and public transportation.

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

 

Lower population and a different mindset.   Canadians asked nicely for their independence.   We took ours.   Mindsets are inherited.

 

People all over the world are the same. It is government and religion that make them different. 

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1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

The World War II veterans had had their fill of "density" as well.

 

A lot of that in Cleveland and similar places was due to the fact that industrial cities were disgusting to live in. We can have density today in a much cleaner and more sanitary way, which is why cities are coming back, starting with the coasts 20 years ago and now finally creeping into our corner of the world.

Edited by mu2010

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6 hours ago, mu2010 said:

 

A lot of that in Cleveland and similar places was due to the fact that industrial cities were disgusting to live in. We can have density today in a much cleaner and more sanitary way, which is why cities are coming back, starting with the coasts 20 years ago and now finally creeping into our corner of the world.

My parents are both still around (at ages 90 and 85) and they remember Cbus as crowded and dirty in the mid to late 40's. Part of that is nearly 20 years of deferred maintenance from the depression (lack of money) and the war (lack of materials and manpower).  There was a housing shortage, and it was cheapest and easiest to build new housing in new areas-even before the interstate highway system a lot of Levittown type and other suburban developments were built. People back than generally could not wait to get away from public transportation and get private cars and move away from the central city even before racial desegregation became an issue for many.

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Not everyone was trying to run away from public transportation. In the 1990s, in preparation for running a series on Old Cleveland, the local PBS station did a survey of the things that older Clevelanders missed the most about the Cleveland of their youth. One of the four things they missed the most was the streetcars. Cleveland also built the first new rail transit in the USA in the postwar years.

 

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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23 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

 

People all over the world are the same. It is government and religion that make them different. 

 

Not in the least, in fact it it's more likely that it's their differences that drive the differences in those.

 

Geography and migration are more likely to cause differences.   Migration indeed may cause positive feedback on differences.

 

Does it make sense that people uncomfortable with a certain condition are likely to move somewhere it is less prevalent, or not a concern at all?

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23 hours ago, mu2010 said:

 

A lot of that in Cleveland and similar places was due to the fact that industrial cities were disgusting to live in. We can have density today in a much cleaner and more sanitary way, which is why cities are coming back, starting with the coasts 20 years ago and now finally creeping into our corner of the world.

 

True to a point, but the World War II veterans were also tired of life in barracks and on ships. They also had construction skills, and needed jobs.

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5 hours ago, KJP said:

Not everyone was trying to run away from public transportation. In the 1990s, in preparation for running a series on Old Cleveland, the local PBS station did a survey of the things that older Clevelanders missed the most about the Cleveland of their youth. One of the four things they missed the most was the streetcars. Cleveland also built the first new rail transit in the USA in the postwar years.

 

 

Truth.   It would be better to say they were getting away from a dependence on public transportation.

 

Maple Heights was one of the first of the sprawlburbs.  Yet before the RTA takeover, the typical MH resident likely had better access to public transportation than most Clevelanders.   The point was it was not an essential.   

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And now to settle the city-suburb-exurb debate once and for all: we're all right and we're all wrong!

 

Edited by KJP

"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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The goal of the study was to measure the resurgence of cities vs their suburbs, which has been much discussed over the last decade or so, so it compares 1970 to 2010 data.  OK.

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1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

 

They may have taken too long of a time period in order to prove a point.   I'd guess that difference was most distinct between 1970 and 1985 or so, then  almost as strong into the mid 90s.   It continues over the last 25 years or so, but not as strongly.   Policies which were anti-urban in effect (though not always intent) implemented during the late 60s and  70s exacerbated the "perfect storm" that was postwar residential sprawl.

 

Culture and education are the root of the differences moving forwards.

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Not just a suburban issue, of course 

 

 


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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I would be very interested to know which census tracts lost population due to abandonment vs due to smaller household sizes. I'm not too familiar with the west side, but the east suburbs have been losing population for awhile, but they are for the most part not being abandoned. There just has been no real addition of housing units until recently. Its the same houses with now just the parents living in them. The only way to actively combat population decline while household sizes shrinks is to add more and more density. The long game would be waiting for the parents to leave those houses, and them to open up on the market for a new family to move in, which would take decades.

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1 hour ago, PoshSteve said:

I would be very interested to know which census tracts lost population due to abandonment vs due to smaller household sizes. I'm not too familiar with the west side, but the east suburbs have been losing population for awhile, but they are for the most part not being abandoned. There just has been no real addition of housing units until recently. Its the same houses with now just the parents living in them. The only way to actively combat population decline while household sizes shrinks is to add more and more density. The long game would be waiting for the parents to leave those houses, and them to open up on the market for a new family to move in, which would take decades.

 

There is more to it than just that.  My brother and parent both own homes near to one another.  My middle nephew graduated in '18 and moved back home. Most of my cousins' kids live at home as well.  Nobody wants to sell, that is a real fact. Some people just don't want to move and unmarried generations are moving "home".  It makes counting more difficult

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On 3/27/2019 at 10:47 AM, KJP said:

 

I couldn't agree more.  The urban city block looks a lot better than "glass human glass box warehouses in the sky".    

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^ Interesting that they're using "Geuga County, Ohio" (sic) as the "most sprawling county"; wonder what data they used to determine that.

Edited by Robuu

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14 minutes ago, Robuu said:

^ Interesting that they're using "Geuga County, Ohio" (sic) as the "most sprawling county"; wonder what data they used to determine that.

 

Perhaps the lowest population density in a recognized urban area.   More likely the biggest difference they could find between NYC and an urban county.

 

Likely a misleading number.   Geauga County is like a fifth Amish, and I suspect they weigh more than the general population.  Both due to physically working harder (muscle weighs more than fat by a good margin) and the way they eat.   Plus there does not seem to be a premium on thinness for the women, while in NYC......

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I'm quoting someone else's retweet of a retweet of a tweet but having to edit it to clean up some language....

 

🎯 This is exactly why Republican legislatures in Missouri, Ohio, et al go out of their way to f--- over cities by defunding transit & building highways on cornfields. Growing urban neighborhoods tilt the balance of statewide political power. They know exactly what they're doing.

 

 

Edited by KJP

"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Cleveland, we have a problem.....

 

hubsregionalgrowthlossdemographics0.jpg

Northeast Ohio’s traded-sector job hubs relative to its non-white communities. Source: 2016 5-year ACS data

 

Friday, June 07, 2019

Eradicating The Transportation Paradox

Guest Author

by Dominic Mathew, Director of Mobility Innovation, Fund for our Economic Future

 

Residents across Northeast Ohio are faced with an untenable choice: a commute by public transit that can be as long as three hours every day, an expensive commute by car that can consume more than an hour’s worth of wages, or a significantly smaller set of employment options closer to home. Too many residents find themselves stuck in an intractable scenario: no car, no job; no job, no car.

 

Meanwhile, employers face hiring and retention challenges as long commutes increase turnover and, as a result, the cost of doing business.

 

These realities are the result of fragmented, unaligned development across Northeast Ohio; for decades, industrial, commercial and residential development has sprawled outward, but there has been no net increase in jobs or population to substantiate the regional spread.

 

While the disconnect between people and jobs is a growing national challenge, in Northeast Ohio, the problem is getting worse more quickly than in other markets.[1] And it matters. The disconnect between people and jobs exacerbates racial inequities, limits economic mobility, harms the region’s businesses, and diminishes the overall health of our economy.

 

Residents in Northeast Ohio spend between 24 percent and 29 percent of their income on transportation, a large part of which is the cost of commuting to work (check out the interactive H+T Affordability Index from the Center for Neighborhood Technology for more granular information about transportation costs in Northeast Ohio). This is not to mention the time spent commuting that can be spent on more constructive tasks. According to the Brookings Institution, only one-quarter of jobs in low and middle-skill industries are accessible via transit within 90 minutes.[2] (For more information on local commuting patterns by car and public transportation, see interactive maps at www.jobhubsneo.org.)

 

The hardest hit residents? People of color.

 

Racially motivated national and local policies have driven segregated development patterns and community disinvestment, and prevented people of color, particularly black Northeast Ohioans, from building wealth. Regional areas of economic distress are disproportionally populated by black residents and the fastest growing job hubs are located in communities that are disproportionally white.

 

In the Cleveland MSA, the number of black residents who do not own a vehicle is almost four times that of white residents. This challenge is particularly acute in high-poverty neighborhoods. For example, 56 percent of residents in Cleveland’s Central neighborhood, populated by 90 percent black residents and one of the region’s most distressed, do not have access to a vehicle.[3]

 

To get to work in Solon, the region’s fastest growing job hub with living-wage, accessible manufacturing jobs, carless residents face a commute of more than 90 minutes and two transfers—each way. This same commute by car would be under 30 minutes. People of color and low-income Americans who tend to have the longest commutes are also less likely to use new shared mobility services because of barriers like accessibility and lack of technology infrastructure.

 

This amounts to distance discrimination. Left unaddressed, these obstacles are likely to worsen.

 

We are no longer living in a world where transportation options need to be limited to a choice between individualized car ownership or a traditional bus. We can eradicate The Transportation Paradox if we embrace seamless mobility solutions that transcend barriers to entry for disadvantaged communities by addressing them head-on.

 

In Northeast Ohio, the Fund for Our Economic Future is working in partnership with transit agencies, and public, private and nonprofit leaders to create a testing ground for potential alternative options, including ride-sharing solutions like SHARE, neighborhood-based designs like EmpowerBus, car/van-pooling services like Enterprise RideShare, and on-demand services like Transloc. Through The Paradox Prize, an open call for ideas, we hope to source solutions that can break The Transportation Paradox.

 

Done right, in conjunction with an effective, efficient public transportation system, mobility solutions have the potential to dramatically increase prospects for economic advancement for Northeast Ohio’s un- and underemployed residents and improve the ability for area businesses to fill thousands of open jobs across the region. Our region’s mix of urban, suburban, and rural communities—all facing this same challenge—make Northeast Ohio a prime place to demonstrate what’s possible for regions around the country.

 

Northeast Ohio needs your big ideas! We hope you’ll join us in addressing The Transportation Paradox. Applications for The Paradox Prize are now being accepted at paradoxprize.com.

___

[1] The Brookings Institution, “The Growing Distance Between People and Jobs in Metropolitan

America,” 2015.

[2] The Brookings Institution, “Missed Opportunity: Transit and Jobs in Metropolitan America,” 2011, page 64.

[3] U.S. Census Bureau, selected housing characteristics, 2012-2017 American Community Survey 5-year estimates. Retrieved from https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/nav/jsf/pages/download_center.xhtml#

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"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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Redirected from the Beacon thread....

 

1 hour ago, audidave said:

^Y’know that is one hell of a picture!  The smog is so heavy in downtown. Everything is blackened by the coal trains including the buildings nearby. None of the 9 substation stacks are pumping out smoke and i don’t really see any of the steel mills further down the valley pumping out much smoke either. The Cuyahoga looks pretty brackish as well.  No wonder people didn’t want to live downtown. 

 

FYI @audidave, most homes and businesses were heated and powered with coal. So were the streetcar power stations. The mills were pretty busy in the first year of the Great Depression. And I assume by "substation" you mean Cleveland Thermal? There were lots of other pollutants as well. Many Clevelanders suffered breathing and other ailments from the pollution. So if you could afford to live in the heights back then, you did. Most couldn't afford it however. BTW, all that being said, the smog isn't that heavy in the picture. When all of the industry was at full tilt, day turned to night or at least twilight. And Clevelanders would say "When you can see the air, times are good."


"Save the planet. Move to the city." -- The Downtowner podcast

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