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You know, if we just got rid of all the people, too, this would also never happen. :roll:

 

How many different studies are going to have to show that disarming law-abiding citizens increases violent crime rates (or at least is correlated with such increases) before the argument that law-abiding citizens need to be disarmed goes away?

 

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

 

At the very worst, one can show conflicting and inconclusive studies on the issue, and that's giving gun control advocates far more benefit of the doubt than is warranted, and far more than they give the Second Amendment's defenders:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/weekinreview/29liptak.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

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You know, if we just got rid of all the people, too, this would also never happen. :roll:

 

 

At the rate we're going, that might just happen. Sorry, but we haven't earned the right to keep guns. If Americans show the world the way, then we're showing the rest of the world they made the right choice to restrict gun ownership. They have safer societies than ours.

 

They're guns. They have few redeeming or valuable qualities. Get rid of them. They cause more pain and suffering than they're worth. Guns are a disease.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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The guy was reportedly 20, so in the next couple hours there will be talk of a video game ban, and they'll drag out stock video of Grand Theft Auto and Modern Warfare. This must be like what true believer NRA folks feel.

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Maybe someday when a bunch of anti-gun terrorists get some automatic weapons, walk into the NRA offices and kill everyone there, maybe this country will join the rest of the world in being a more civil place? Or maybe they'll have to move on next to multiple gun stores or gun shows and mow everyone down just to make a point? I can see it coming.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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This is no time to be defensive.  We need a really serious discussion about the type of guns which are made available to the public.  Early indications are that there were at least 100 rounds fired.  I suspect we will find that the gunman used some type of weapon which goes far beyond what would be considered reasonable for sport or self-defense.

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This is circulating on twitter

 

AP: Suspect used .223 caliber rifle. This is a picture of a .223 rifle. This is legal. A-GJSUFCUAANr51.jpg:large

 

Even as someone who favors certain degrees of tighter gun control it's annoying. The caliber is irrelevant (until you get a lot larger obviously), and is making the argument ridiculous. This particular gun chosen because it's military looks when the scope, stock, grip, etc. just don't matter to the argument they should be making.

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Why don't we let children play with matches, near a boiling pot of water, play with uncovered electrical outlets, etc etc?

 

Because they don't know any better and don't know how to be responsible around such dangerous things.

 

Ditto for adults with guns.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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You know, if we just got rid of all the people, too, this would also never happen. :roll:

 

 

At the rate we're going, that might just happen. Sorry, but we haven't earned the right to keep guns.

 

That makes about as much sense as saying we haven't "earned" the right to free speech, to speedy and public trials, to equal protection, or to due process.

 

Rights, particularly constitutional rights, are not "earned."  You don't "earn" the right to practice your religion.

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A man in China today went on a stabbing spree at a primary school there.  Care to guess how many lost their lives?

 

None.

 

How many Americans die from violent crime vs other industrialized nations?


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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Rights, particularly constitutional rights, are not "earned."  You don't "earn" the right to practice your religion.

 

Do I not have to earn my right to a Howitzer?  An M1 tank?  A nuclear submarine?  Point being, there has to be a line.  There are certain things you can't say.  There are certain religions you can't "practice."  We need to re-evaluate which guns, and how many, you can rightfully own.  Let's not kid ourselves, no one owns a gun "for the purposes of a well-regulated militia"

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Forgive me for opening myself up to being accused of being "unpatriotic," "against freedom", or whatever else may come my way for saying this, but not all "rights" are equal and perhaps the Founding Fathers made a mistake with the Second Amendment, or at the very least in the ambiguity in the way it was written.  Sometimes we act like the Founders were infallible gods and I just don't buy it.  We have the power to govern ourselves and make decisions about freedoms and laws that are more realistic for the time period in which we live.  It's not the late 18th century anymore.

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That makes about as much sense as saying we haven't "earned" the right to free speech, to speedy and public trials, to equal protection, or to due process.

 

Rights, particularly constitutional rights, are not "earned."  You don't "earn" the right to practice your religion.

 

It most certainly does. All rights come with limitations. Anyone who abuses their rights gets them taken away, at varying degrees, ranging from fines to imprisonment to death.

 

And not all rights are absolute. Over the centuries these vary with societal experiences. Sooner or later, people decide they have had enough with the status quo and seek to change it. Many times we go too far. Many times we don't go far enough. But the right to have guns was a right created and preserved by human decision, not by some act of God. And thus we as humans can decide to also take those rights away if we decide we cannot no longer responsibly accept such rights.

 

BTW, with each shooting spree, I become less proud to be an American. I feel like I'm some ultra-patriotic, fundamentalist, militia man's wet dream. And I didn't sign up for this.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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That makes about as much sense as saying we haven't "earned" the right to free speech, to speedy and public trials, to equal protection, or to due process.

 

Rights, particularly constitutional rights, are not "earned."  You don't "earn" the right to practice your religion.

 

It most certainly does. All rights come with limitations. Anyone who abuses their rights gets them taken away, at varying degrees, ranging from fines to imprisonment to death.

 

And not all rights are absolute. Over the centuries these vary with societal experiences. Sooner or later, people decide they have had enough with the status quo and seek to change it. Many times we go too far. Many times we don't go far enough. But the right to have guns was a right created and preserved by human decision, not by some act of God. And thus we as humans can decide to also take those rights away if we decide we cannot no longer responsibly accept such rights.

 

BTW, with each shooting spree, I become less proud to be an American. I feel like I'm some ultra-patriotic, fundamentalist, militia man's wet dream. And I didn't sign up for this.

 

Forgive me for opening myself up to being accused of being "unpatriotic," "against freedom", or whatever else may come my way for saying this, but not all "rights" are equal and perhaps the Founding Fathers made a mistake with the Second Amendment, or at the very least in the ambiguity in the way it was written.  Sometimes we act like the Founders were infallible gods and I just don't buy it.  We have the power to govern ourselves and make decisions about freedoms and laws that are more realistic for the time period in which we live.  It's not the late 18th century anymore.

 

Agreed on both counts. We were just stunned here at work.

 

Nine facts about guns and gun control in the US:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

 

This does not advocate either way for or against gun ownership, but it paints a portrait of just how violent as a nation we really are - and what policies may be politically supportive.

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http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

 

One of the first articles that Google pulled up on the .223 caliber ammunition.

 

So caliber doesn't really matter that much. This article gives a good explanation of what goes into a "man stopping round".

 

I am not a big gun fan, but these shootings are generally turning out to be more a health insurance/mental health services issue going back to the Gifford shooting. However readily available guns to the mentally ill still remains an issue. Also what is scary is the trend of these shooters wearing bullet proof vest to make sure they can maximize the carnage.

 

What kind of sick f*ck kills a room full of kids.

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Just a reminder, as emotional as this issue is for many of us (especially me), please refrain from the full spelling of profanity as it results in UrbanOhio being blocked at many workplaces. A strategically placed asterisk or other symbol is usually all that's needed to defeat such blocks.

 

Proof that many rights, including free speech, are not absolute.


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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These debates always come up when there is a mass shooting at a school or mall. It isn't a gun issue. It is a perp issue.

Who is the perp? do they have mental illness, male, young, yes, etc. Why don't perps attack the Police HQ?

At this school the door is supposed to be locked and you have to be buzzed in? So what happened.

 

God help us all if a massive solar flare knocks out the power grid, we are going to wish we had

100 Rifles with ammo.

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Forgive me for opening myself up to being accused of being "unpatriotic," "against freedom", or whatever else may come my way for saying this, but not all "rights" are equal and perhaps the Founding Fathers made a mistake with the Second Amendment, or at the very least in the ambiguity in the way it was written.  Sometimes we act like the Founders were infallible gods and I just don't buy it.  We have the power to govern ourselves and make decisions about freedoms and laws that are more realistic for the time period in which we live.  It's not the late 18th century anymore.

 

Then try to change the Constitution, but don't just ignore it as a meaningless inconvenience that you wish people would stop mentioning.

 

I'm well aware that the Founders made mistakes.  (Heck, we fought the Civil War over their biggest one.)  But I don't think constitutional protection for the right to keep and bear arms was one of those mistakes, and no, the events of today don't change my mind about that.  Plane crashes are dramatic and heartbreaking and the television cameras eat it up, but working to minimize such tragedies does not equate to a case for banning air travel entirely.  The same applies to high-visibility abuses of the right to keep and bear arms (and that's assuming that this shooter obtained his weapons lawfully, which may or may not be the case but is also not particularly relevant).  In fact, the heat of the moment generated by a rare, high-visibility event is exactly the wrong state of mind in which to suddenly start tearing away at our constitutional architecture.

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I'm well aware that the Founders made mistakes.  (Heck, we fought the Civil War over their biggest one.)  But I don't think constitutional protection for the right to keep and bear arms was one of those mistakes, and no, the events of today don't change my mind about that.  Plane crashes are dramatic and heartbreaking and the television cameras eat it up, but working to minimize such tragedies does not equate to a case for banning air travel entirely.  The same applies to high-visibility abuses of the right to keep and bear arms (and that's assuming that this shooter obtained his weapons lawfully, which may or may not be the case but is also not particularly relevant).  In fact, the heat of the moment generated by a rare, high-visibility event is exactly the wrong state of mind in which to suddenly start tearing away at our constitutional architecture.

 

Then what do you suggest be done to confront the gratuitous amount of violence in the United States? If banning guns is not an option, then what are our options? Would you be against making it harder for people to obtain guns? Perhaps requiring background checks, psychological evaluations, training, and other measures to ensure that those who own guns are stable and also knowledgeable on how to store and operate a gun. If making it more difficult to own a gun is off the table, then are there other areas we could make changes? Perhaps increasing funding for anti-bullying programs, mental health care, anger management programs in schools, and other measures would help the situation we are in.

 

Gun violence, and violence in general, is a huge problem in America. Clearly, something needs to be done. If gun control measures are out of the question, we still need to confront why people go on these killing sprees. As CBC and others mentioned earlier, a reoccurring theme in all of these mass shootings is the mental state of the shooters/killers. Why do we ignore and stigmatize mental health issues in this country? Doing so only allows for mental problems to foster and lead to the issues we are facing today. If we didn't demonize and ignore mental health problems and provided more funding to mental health programs, we might start to reduce the amount of violent crimes committed by mentally unstable individuals.

 

With that said, I personally believe it should be harder for individuals to own guns and I think certain guns/weapons should not be available. In my opinion, these restrictions could be coupled with the aforementioned  funding for mental health and anti-bullying initiatives.

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Thank you for your service to our country, Kyle. Take care of yourself. To stay on topic, I've made some deletions including of my own text. And so we discuss gun rights...

 

Gunsorchildren_zpse117289c.gif


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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I'm well aware that the Founders made mistakes.  But I don't think constitutional protection for the right to keep and bear arms was one of those mistakes, and no, the events of today don't change my mind about that.  Plane crashes are dramatic and heartbreaking and the television cameras eat it up, but working to minimize such tragedies does not equate to a case for banning air travel entirely.  The same applies to high-visibility abuses of the right to keep and bear arms (and that's assuming that this shooter obtained his weapons lawfully, which may or may not be the case but is also not particularly relevant).  In fact, the heat of the moment generated by a rare, high-visibility event is exactly the wrong state of mind in which to suddenly start tearing away at our constitutional architecture.

 

Then what do you suggest be done to confront the gratuitous amount of violence in the United States? If banning guns is not an option, then what are our options? ...

Don't expect an answer. What you are seeing is "stalling".  Fill the page with words.

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Ironically, I spent the day pedaling through Chardon where I mused on that punk who borrowed his uncle's pistol and put a bullet in one of his classmate's spinal nerve and put three others in the grave.  If you own a gun in America, you don't have to handle it in a responsible way.  Kids die, moms cry, T.S.

 

It was a beautiful day.

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A man in China today went on a stabbing spree at a primary school there.  Care to guess how many lost their lives?

 

None.

 

How many Americans die from violent crime vs other industrialized nations?

 

Exactly.  I mentioned this today talking with a few people on campus.  Compare our murder rate (by guns) to that of Canada, UK, France, Australia, Germany, and more.  These are all countries with similar incomes, HDI, and living standards.  Something needs to be done in this country as far as getting guns off the streets go.

 

On the same token, I feel that people have the right to protect themselves, they have that right no matter what your opinion is on the subject.  I was reading a story today, I think it was in the Dispatch, where someone killed a 17 year-old kid for breaking into their house.  If someone is in your house threatening you, I don't expect you to sit back and let them hurt, or even kill you.  Get out the gun and shoot them.  People get their concealed carry and they have that right.  Look back to the people who do these mass shootings and look how they get their guns.  The mall shooting last week in Oregon was by a kid who stole the gun from his friend.  There are so many routes and ways you can look into this, and you are going to have opinions on both sides that are strong and present really good points.  In the grand scheme of things, something is going wrong in this country on a certain level where other countries are getting it right.  Yes, what happened in Norway was wrong, but the EU is obviously doing something right on all levels of crime, especially when it comes to guns.  Also notice how when there is one major mass shooting, it seems like another follows shortly after.  I think the media plays into this stuff way too much, and really can make these tragedies that much worse.

 

With that said, I also think it is pathetic that not even a few hours into the shooting people are already debating and bi###### about gun control.  This is one of those issues that we will be fighting, and have been fighting for a very long time.  Yes, this incident reinforces something needs to be done, but for crying out loud, 20 children have lost their lives today and in typical f'ed up society bickering, we already turn to something as ridiculous as people throwing around what they think should be done.  My thoughts go to the parents and families who have lost someone today.  I still can't put into words, let alone imagine what they are going through...

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Forgive me for opening myself up to being accused of being "unpatriotic," "against freedom", or whatever else may come my way for saying this, but not all "rights" are equal and perhaps the Founding Fathers made a mistake with the Second Amendment, or at the very least in the ambiguity in the way it was written.  Sometimes we act like the Founders were infallible gods and I just don't buy it.  We have the power to govern ourselves and make decisions about freedoms and laws that are more realistic for the time period in which we live.  It's not the late 18th century anymore.

 

The Framers were pretty close to infallible on issues of individual liberty, well for white males anyway.  They even allowed for the idea that the Constitution might need to be changed, so they added a way to do that....with great difficulty.  2/3 of each House of Congress, and 3/4 of the state legislatures.    The process has only screwed up once, and it fixed itself.

 

You won't get this one, for a lot of reasons.  It's about as likely as allowing the government to assess everyone in the nation's "mental health" (as they define it) and limit their rights.  Or even detain them.  This, BTW, isn't all that far from what European nations do.

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...  I think the media plays into this stuff way too much, and really can make these tragedies that much worse.

 

With that said, I also think it is pathetic that not even a few hours into the shooting people are already debating and bi###### about gun control.  This is one of those issues that we will be fighting, and have been fighting for a very long time.  Yes, this incident reinforces something needs to be done, but for crying out loud, 20 children have lost their lives today and in typical f'ed up society bickering, we already turn to something as ridiculous as people throwing around what they think should be done.  ...

I don't agree.  We have to talk about this.  The mistake was when we ignored it and presumed that the status quo of lax regulation presented by the NRA was what was best for America.

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The NRA owns this.  Gun limitations need to be put back on the table at the national level.  It is a logical fallacy to assert that the more guns there are the safer a society is. 

 

I heard on NPR today 58k gun stores in US.  Screw the messenger, tell me why we need 58K gun stores in the US?

 

If someone snapped like this at NRA HQ it sure would make for an interesting debate.  I saw others musing that if this happened to a bunch of politicians there may be some action as well.  I doubt much will happen, but I expect some blow back on this.

 

These things have been happening much more frequently.  Time to lift the moratorium on the debate on guns in this country.  Eff you NRA. 

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...  I think the media plays into this stuff way too much, and really can make these tragedies that much worse.

 

With that said, I also think it is pathetic that not even a few hours into the shooting people are already debating and bi###### about gun control.  This is one of those issues that we will be fighting, and have been fighting for a very long time.  Yes, this incident reinforces something needs to be done, but for crying out loud, 20 children have lost their lives today and in typical f'ed up society bickering, we already turn to something as ridiculous as people throwing around what they think should be done.  ...

I don't agree.  We have to talk about this.  The mistake was when we ignored it and presumed that the status quo of lax regulation presented by the NRA was what was best for America.

 

I am throwing around my own conclusion, but with what happening in Oregon, they put so much attention on these kind of events that it is almost like the next shooter has to outdo them, they have to cause more damage.  Not only that, but look how much attention they give to each shooter.  The whole deal with his brother and Facebook.  Forget the whole 15 seconds of fame, these shooters get international attention.  I was finding out stuff about the shooting from South African newspapers.

 

 

The media?  NRA?  I really don't care about either right now.  What I am saying is that there are 20 sets of parents/guardians out there that are grieving, they are going through the unimaginable.  They have to bury their children because of some punk lowlife.  I am thinking how the picturesque New England town (seems so similar to Chardon), this school, these families are going to get through this.  When I lived in Florida there were days when I had to pick up my little cousins from school who were in this very same age bracket.  It literally makes me sick to think that someone target these kids.  When you hear about these shootings you think not again.  But today when I heard about this one, I literally felt sick.  There were so many things I was thinking about all at once about this shooting.  These kids have had their lives cut short, brothers and sisters lost someone today, families are going to take a long time to recover.  I don't give two sh*ts about the NRA or the media right now.  There is a process of mourning and condolences that you give this town and its residents, and I think they deserve that.  Do we need to talk about it? Yes.  Do we need to act on it?  Most certainly.  But these wounds are as fresh as it can get, and we already have people protesting outside the White House.   

 

 

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The NRA owns this.  Gun limitations need to be put back on the table at the national level.  It is a logical fallacy to assert that the more guns there are the safer a society is. 

 

I heard on NPR today 58k gun stores in US.  Screw the messenger, tell me why we need 58K gun stores in the US?

 

If someone snapped like this at NRA HQ it sure would make for an interesting debate.  I saw others musing that if this happened to a bunch of politicians there may be some action as well.  I doubt much will happen, but I expect some blow back on this.

 

These things have been happening much more frequently.  Time to lift the moratorium on the debate on guns in this country.  Eff you NRA. 

 

There's never been a moratorium. The debate's continued, but the legal ownership side has been winning rather handily.  This will continue.  The anti-gun call for a "dialogue" whenever there's a tragedy is at best the boy crying wolf.  Tragedies preceded most major gun-restrictive laws, and none of those laws seemed to do any good.

 

In part, the debate's so unbalanced because knowledgeable leaders know that a serious attempt at gun confiscation would backfire in a way that would make Prohibition look tame.  50 to 75 million Americans own guns, which means that two percent of them taking a "use them or lose them" approach means a milllion insurrectionaries.  This is a conservative estimate.

 

For the most part, though. the reason is the majority sees the right to be armed as an esssential liberty.

 

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...  I think the media plays into this stuff way too much, and really can make these tragedies that much worse.

 

With that said, I also think it is pathetic that not even a few hours into the shooting people are already debating and bi###### about gun control.  This is one of those issues that we will be fighting, and have been fighting for a very long time.  Yes, this incident reinforces something needs to be done, but for crying out loud, 20 children have lost their lives today and in typical f'ed up society bickering, we already turn to something as ridiculous as people throwing around what they think should be done.  ...

I don't agree.  We have to talk about this.  The mistake was when we ignored it and presumed that the status quo of lax regulation presented by the NRA was what was best for America.

 

I am throwing around my own conclusion, but with what happening in Oregon, they put so much attention on these kind of events that it is almost like the next shooter has to outdo them, they have to cause more damage.  Not only that, but look how much attention they give to each shooter.  The whole deal with his brother and Facebook.  Forget the whole 15 seconds of fame, these shooters get international attention.  I was finding out stuff about the shooting from South African newspapers.

 

 

The media?  NRA?  I really don't care about either right now.  What I am saying is that there are 20 sets of parents/guardians out there that are grieving, they are going through the unimaginable.  They have to bury their children because of some punk lowlife.  I am thinking how the picturesque New England town (seems so similar to Chardon), this school, these families are going to get through this.  When I lived in Florida there were days when I had to pick up my little cousins from school who were in this very same age bracket.  It literally makes me sick to think that someone target these kids.  When you hear about these shootings you think not again.  But today when I heard about this one, I literally felt sick.  There were so many things I was thinking about all at once about this shooting.  These kids have had their lives cut short, brothers and sisters lost someone today, families are going to take a long time to recover.  I don't give two sh*ts about the NRA or the media right now.  There is a process of mourning and condolences that you give this town and its residents, and I think they deserve that.  Do we need to talk about it? Yes.  Do we need to act on it?  Most certainly.  But these wounds are as fresh as it can get, and we already have people protesting outside the White House.   

 

Obama handled it well.  I'll give him that.  Then Bloomberg stepped right in the feces with his response.  The Second Amendment Lobby is very quick to react, sometimes to the point of being proactive.  The arguments start early because the issue can be as emotional as the tragedy.

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The NRA owns this.  Gun limitations need to be put back on the table at the national level.  It is a logical fallacy to assert that the more guns there are the safer a society is. 

 

I heard on NPR today 58k gun stores in US.  Screw the messenger, tell me why we need 58K gun stores in the US?

 

If someone snapped like this at NRA HQ it sure would make for an interesting debate.  I saw others musing that if this happened to a bunch of politicians there may be some action as well.  I doubt much will happen, but I expect some blow back on this.

 

These things have been happening much more frequently.  Time to lift the moratorium on the debate on guns in this country.  Eff you NRA. 

 

There's never been a moratorium. The debate's continued, but the legal ownership side has been winning rather handily.  This will continue.  The anti-gun call for a "dialogue" whenever there's a tragedy is at best the boy crying wolf.  Tragedies preceded most major gun-restrictive laws, and none of those laws seemed to do any good.

 

In part, the debate's so unbalanced because knowledgeable leaders know that a serious attempt at gun confiscation would backfire in a way that would make Prohibition look tame.  50 to 75 million Americans own guns, which means that two percent of them taking a "use them or lose them" approach means a milllion insurrectionaries.  This is a conservative estimate.

 

For the most part, though. the reason is the majority sees the right to be armed as an esssential liberty.

 

 

And you reply typically.

 

Nowhere was I calling for guns to be taken back from people, nor did I speak of prohibition,but that's where you went. 

 

A study does not exist that shows that unfettered ownership of guns makes a society safer. 

 

8. More guns tend to mean more homicide.

 

The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states. Citations here.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

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Obama handled it well.  I'll give him that.  Then Bloomberg stepped right in the feces with his response.  The Second Amendment Lobby is very quick to react, sometimes to the point of being proactive.  The arguments start early because the issue can be as emotional as the tragedy.

The NRA took their Facebook page down immediately!

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I dunno man, people say wait to talk about it then the time passes and it's forgotten.

 

The time is now, before the next shiny thing comes along.

 

Oh I agree.  Here's my point:

 

I am tired of the media giving the attention to the shooter.  I just watched a great special on NBC where they were focusing on the town, the people, and hearing personal stories of unfortunately tragedy, but also heroics.  I don't want to hear about the shooter's brother's Facebook and how 14,000 people on Facebook started going crazy over the wrong guy.  I wanted to see what international media outlets were talking about on the story, and I was getting South African articles about the shooter and what they knew about him and what his past was like.  It sounds bad, and in a lot of cases is not what the media is going after, but they to an extent glorify the shooter.  There are people out there with some serious problems.  This guy obviously had them, and we probably will never know what was going in his head.  It doesn't matter how many laws you put into place, you're always going to have those people out there who are insane and will "do what the voices in their head were telling them to do" or what ever else sick stuff is going on in there. There are going to be people that get access to guns no matter how tough you make it for getting them. We need to as a country tackle issues dealing with guns head on.  Australia, a country with 22.8 million people does not have near the population that the US does, or the history and social issues, but they have very comparable living standards and diversity levels.  In Sydney and Melbourne, cities with over 4.5 million and 4 million people respectively, you rarely hear about murders and shootings.  I live in the suburbs of Youngstown, a city with 65,000 people... I hear about shootings on a weekly basis. Look at our major cities in Chicago and Detroit, which could be considered some of the most dangerous cities in the developed world.  So how did that kid on the south side get his gun that killed the 15 year-old?  It's not the guy with the concealed carry standing next to me in the checkout line that I am worried about, or think will be the one that is going to shoot up the place.  It is the kid who is the introvert in school, the one who acts irrational, the people in the low income neighborhoods in the inner city with high crime that do not have access to the right services.  These are the ones who find access to the weapons and cause issues that we watch on our evening news.  We are not taking the right approach (and certainly not enough action on all levels in this country) how to deal with these types of people or crimes.  I am not saying everyone person who suffers mental illness/issues or every neighborhood in the inner city needs to go into lock down, but we certainly need to start giving it the time of day instead of shrugging our shoulders and saying "we will deal with it later."  There was a man today who said it best: We don't need to go over this debate today, but we certainly can't keep putting it on the back burner.  President Obama has handled this issue perfectly.  He has shown sorrow and realized that we as a nation need to grieve and give our condolences, but in the weeks to come, we need to take some serious action against these types of crimes.

 

It's like we have become immune to these tragedies.  We grieve, we come together as a nation, we see these powerful images that really give you hope that we can become stronger and have a different outcome in the end.  A week passes, the nation has moved on with its business, and it doesn't seem like long before we have another Arizona, Chardon, Wisconsin temple, the mall.... and of all places, a kindergarten class.  I am not saying we shouldn't talk about it, but right now, instead of debating and going into the myriad of issues that can lead away from the topic of guns, I think we should focus on this town and what they're going through.  I hate to see another shooting, but it is at a whole new level when you are talking about this age group... it really makes you think twice about stuff.  Like I said, I would pick my little cousins up at their school in this same age group and I can't imagine why someone would want to cause harm to these little kids who come out with big smiles on their faces to give you the biggest news of the day which involved being the star student for the week.  I cannot fathom this kind of stuff; our nation is messed up when it comes to gun laws.

 

In the gist of things:

 

-I believe people have the right to defend themselves

-If they own guns, make sure they have the proper training with those guns

-Messed up people in this nation will still find ways to get their hands on weapons that harm and kill people (not everyone abides to laws written in Washington)

-The media needs to give info on the shooter to at least give the public knowledge who it was, but I don't need their personal stories in life... 26 people lost their lives today... not 27 when they count the shooter.  That's just how I feel

 

I most definitely think we need to talk about it, and come together as a nation to combat gun crimes.  But right now, I am thinking and praying (not a very religious person) for the 26 people who lost their lives today and the pain these families have to go through for a long time to come. 

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Obama handled it well.  I'll give him that.  Then Bloomberg stepped right in the feces with his response.  The Second Amendment Lobby is very quick to react, sometimes to the point of being proactive.  The arguments start early because the issue can be as emotional as the tragedy.

The NRA took their Facebook page down immediately!

 

It was probably getting spammed.

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In the gist of things:

 

-I believe people have the right to defend themselves

-If they own guns, make sure they have the proper training with those guns

-Messed up people in this nation will still find ways to get their hands on weapons that harm and kill people (not everyone abides to laws written in Washington)

-The media needs to give info on the shooter to at least give the public knowledge who it was, but I don't need their personal stories in life... 26 people lost their lives today... not 27 when they count the shooter.  That's just how I feel

 

I most definitely think we need to talk about it, and come together as a nation to combat gun crimes.  But right now, I am thinking and praying (not a very religious person) for the 26 people who lost their lives today and the pain these families have to go through for a long time to come. 

 

The thing is, laws passed during an emotional time aren’t usually very well thought out.  Plus, the gun issue is already a visceral one to begin with.  Up through 1994, it always seemed that incidents like this one led to the latest gun control measure being passed.  At some point during the late 1990s, enough people realized that these laws weren’t making a real difference to tip the scales.  Now, it’s seen as a tragedy, but not a cause for governmental preventive action.

 

Indeed, there’s some suspicion among gun owners that some of these incidents are staged in order to provoke a general reaction against gun ownership.  We pretty much know that’s what “Fast and Furious” was all about.  I personally don’t believe that’s commonplace, but I think there’s something to it.  The Sikh temple and movie theater shootings smell like it.

 

Lately, the reaction to these shootings is usually “we don’t want to grab guns, just keep them away from people like this”.  Here’s the problem:  there’s never a valid before-the-fact definition of why this particular shooter was different, and how keeping guns away from him would not keep them away from the general population.

 

I only see two ways to make such incidents completely go away:

A) A complete mental health screening of the entire population, with the government having access to the results and the authority to act upon them.  Bad idea, on SO many levels.

 

B) A complete ban on the private ownership of weapons.  The drawbacks:  it won’t work and will trigger a very serious insurrection.

 

I think we’re facing the same dilemma we did with alcohol.  There may be cures, but they’re worse than the disease.

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E Rocc, you're nothing if not consistent...in being wrong.

 

Just because no legislation will ever be perfect does not mean that the unabated growth of gun rights needs to continue.  There is a happy medium here.  Unfortunately the NRA does not want that medium. 

 

Easy access to guns is not the only reason why tragedies like this happen, but you're lying to yourself if you don't at least admit that it's in the top three or four reasons.  Mental health is obviously another one.

 

At the end of the day, the citizens of this country get what they deserve (note: None of the victims of these shootings deserved their fate, but as a country we cannot be surprised that this keeps happening).  Sorry if that sounds harsh, but if people don't wake up after this to the culture we have created that allows our mentally ill to suffer, that allows anyone to have access to a gun that wants it, that places a value a violence and killing, then these things are going to continue to happen.  And the blood is on the hands of those that sit idly by and imply that nothing can be done by saying things like "Evil exists.  Sorry."

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The framers can't be infallible. They were human beings. And they knew they weren't infallible because they created a process whereby the Constitution could be amended so we could grow as a nation. We thought guns were important in 1776 in order to raise a militia and defend the nation from a tyrannical government. Today a smattering of fear-minded conspiracy theorists still believe this is a valid reason today. But a majority of NRA members support more gun control than does the NRA (http://www.businessinsider.com/nra-and-gun-control-poll-gun-owners-colorado-theater-shooting-batman-2012-7).

 

So could the framers have envisioned the leaders of gun-rights advocates gaining the very tyranny they sought to restrain?


"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

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