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Why, you continue to paint every Republican as a right-winger, who doesn't care about poor people.

 

BTW, I'm retired, will I have to keep paying for my own health insurance?

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^^^Never said every Republican is a right winger...... sorry if you were offended by the term "right-winger"... is there a more PC expression I can use?

 

You don't have to keep paying for your insurance.... you can feel free to elect to pay the fine ... errrrrr, I mean 'tax' instead.  However, if your retirement plan goes bust do to some Bernie Madoff type scandal or you otherwise lose your shirt (bad investments, etc) and there comes a time that you can't afford insurance, you don't have to buy it and you won't be fined... I mean taxed.

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You pay about $100/mo for part of Medicare and the rest is paid for by the wage earners--like Canada. http://www.medicare.gov/default.aspx

***

After the Supreme Court validated the ‘Obamacare’ individual mandate under Congress’s power to tax, Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) was asked by reporters Thursday if he believes the provision is a tax.

 

“Ask Mitt Romney,” he said.

 

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/schumer-ask-mitt-romney-if-health-care-mandate

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No, you still have to pay for any secondary insurance you have to fill in the gaps.

 

My 88 yo mother is still paying for her secondary insurance.  Oh, wait, that doesn't count, that's anectodal!

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Every time I fly internationally, I meet a foreigner coming to America for procedures because we have the best doctors & hospitals in the world.  Blew out your knee while skiing in the Alps?  Ok it's a free surgery and it will be scheduled in 18 months...  Just because coverage is "free" in Europe & elsewhere, doesn't mean it's better care.  Sadly Americans won't know how good they had it till it's gone.

Do you chase down people on crutches at the airport and make them tell their stories?  I am really skeptical about this one, gp.

 

I used to live in Detroit and everytime I flew, I got seated next to an elderly Canadian who was flying in/out for a medical procedure.

 

My brother has lived in Europe for most of the last 10 years.  His kids were born there - he has witnessed first hand the instances where people had to wait a year or more for some "non-essential" surgery.

 

These instances may not ever happen in America, but to say its not happening outside America is false.

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^^As I posted above.... the people of Hawaii seem pretty happy with their system.  Regardless, we didn't pass single payer.  We didn't even pass a public option.  So all this talk of socialized, European medicine is besides the point.  Canada and Europe made that choice and I think they are quite happy with it (no polling data would say otherwise.... only regurgitated talking points from the usual sources).  Show me data that says Candians or Europeans are not happy with their systems or drop the point.  You will find, despite some complaints here and there (inevitable in any system) that they are satisfied by a fairly wide margin (much wider, at least, than Americans are with our system).  I feel we would have similar satisfaction on the whole..... AND, being the greatest society on earth, I think we could do it better.

 

^I do too..... and teachers, firefighters, cops, etc.  But, I don't feel the need to fight for Doctor's pay.  They seem to be living very comfortable and I don't see how this law changes that.

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And on the whole, the people of Russia were satisfied with the Soviet Union for many years. 

 

You're not thinking.  How could they not be satisfied if they know of nothing else?

 

 

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Good analogy, Dan-o  :?  I'll see if I can find my thinking cap.

 

Getting back on topic..... gotta give credit where credit is due.  Dubya had the golden opportunity to load the court up with 2 more Scalias.  But he only went with one (Alito).  While he has reached many decisions I strongly disagree with, Roberts has proved to be a true jurist who holds true to what he believes the law is regardless of partisan politics.  He has turned out to be a great choice for Chief Justice (despite his failed attempt to trip up Obama during the swearing in ceremony..... joking, it was not intentional, but very funny in from a geeky grammatical standpoint).

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And on the whole, the people of Russia were satisfied with the Soviet Union for many years. 

 

You're not thinking.  How could they not be satisfied if they know of nothing else?

You're forgetting that a good portion of the british and canadian people remember their healthcare system before it became socialised.

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And on the whole, the people of Russia were satisfied with the Soviet Union for many years. 

 

 

OH NO the Russians, communists, socialists, healthcare....AAAAAAARRRRRRRHHHH

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I'm going to have to disagree with DanB on this one.  I have tons of friends in Canada and they never have to "wait for a doctor."  It's the same shit there as it is here, just one is "'free' socialized medicine" and the other is "pay an arm and a leg for seeing a doctor about cramps."

 

A true way to measure a country's health system is life expectancy.  The life expectancy of OBAMERcare over in Canada is 80.7. Life expectancy of Pre-OBAMERcare over here in Amurrica is 78.2.  We trail Castro's Cuba, hot-as-hell United Arab Emirates, the Channel Islands (for Christ sakes, Jersey really?), Malta (!), Wynn-ing Macau, and even carb-loving Italy.  If Canada was truly in peril from their socialized medicine, they'd have reformed it immediately.  Clearly, statistically, it's working.  Same with other socialized medicine countries such as Sweden, Norway, or even in partially-socialized Germany.

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

 

While I don't agree with everything in ObamaCare, it's a start and will help out many people tremendously.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Anyone see Mean Jean's reaction to what she thought was the Supreme Court overturning Obamacare?

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/politics/2012/06/28/msnbc-captures-jean-schmidt-outside-supreme-court/

 

Also there's an alarming number of people on twitter today saying they are going to move to Canada because of socialism and 'Obamacare'

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare?fb_action_ids=10151041018746343&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline

 

----

 

Its incredible that the individual mandate is a GOP IDEA through and through (Has been for decades). The individual mandate, which many GOPers declare as "Socialism", was created by the Heritage foundation with the mantra of "Personal responsibility".  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/28/individual-health-care-insurance-mandate-has-long-checkered-past/ . But now since Obama is for it, it must be Marxism

 

Obamacare is basically Romneycare which is basically Dolecare which is basically Nixoncare...All with years of support from the GOP.  One thing is for certain.  I'll be watching more FoxNews tonight then I have in the last 2 years

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^^ Jean Schmidt wailing in misguided joy is icing on this big fat healthy cake. Who reacts like that? You'd think she was terminally ill and just granted health insurance.

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I hate to be so cynical, but part of me really thinks that Justice Roberts came to this decision with at least a partially political motive in mind.  Think about how energized the right is going to be because of this ruling heading into November's Presidential election. 

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^ Via http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/06/obamacare-survives-your-thoughts.html:

 

(1) I am absolutely overjoyed that the Court has upheld the Affordable Care Act, and that the vision of universal coverage is closer today than it was yesterday.

 

(2) As a long term legal matter, Chief Justice Roberts: (a) now has himself a previously non-existent limit on Congress's Commerce clause power, and (b) a perviously unrecognized limit on Congress's Spending Clause power. He will have these limits at his disposal over his next 20+ years as leader of the Roberts Court.

 

(3) As political matter, his maneuvering was absolutely genius. He has (a) protected the institution of the Court; (b) forced Obama and the Democrats in Congress to acknowledge that the mandate is a tax and, thus, they have raised taxes on earners under $250,000; and © ensured that, as a tax, the mandate can be repealed by reconciliation - i.e., a bare majority of both Houses and the signature of a Republican President.

 

Roberts got his limitation on federal power and got to ingeniously play the political game without receiving any fault for doing so. And, most importantly, the uninsured will now get insurance.

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^Interesting theories, regardless of whether it is intentional or conveniently coincidental.  I hadn't thought about the reconciliation angle.  That would make it easier to repeal.  However, I will take a repeal over a complete obliteration.  If we had to start from scratch again, it would be another 50 years before we did anything.  Any repeal is going to have to include a replacement plan,,,,it's not like they are gong to go back to the old letter of the law (as would have been the case if the ACA was struck down today)

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^Good luck with that, Mitt.  60 votes if you want to discuss any significant changes.  That's the standard your party has set, unfortunately

 

After seeing the impact on campaign donations by corporate entities, I don't think it's implausible at all to consider Republicans could take back the Senate.  We've already seen what can happen when one side outspends the other by 3-1 or more...  I think the backlash from the business sector on this will be something that Democrats totally underestimated.

 

Again, they need to do more than "take back" the Senate.  A supermajority is needed now.

 

 

 

“With a 50-vote majority in the Senate, Republicans could do the same thing Democrats did with 50 votes on Obamacare — and that is to use the reconciliation process — to reverse the more onerous provisions of Obamacare and replace them with what Republicans have been talking about,” Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) said.

 

Of course, a lot has to go right for Republicans between now and then.

 

Obama would have to lose the White House, Republicans would have to pick up three Senate seats — and hold the House — and the GOP would have to show 100 percent unity if it was serious about repealing a law that has been found constitutional by the Supreme Court.

 

On top of that, some budget experts believe not every part of the health care law could be repealed using the simple-majority rules of reconciliation — only the parts that have a direct budget impact. Still, major portions, including the individual mandate, could be targeted by reconciliation."

 

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/78002.html#ixzz1zBsvJkK9

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I'm confused by the Republican's (specifically Mitt Romney's) stance on the ACA.  When speaking about the courts decision to uphold the law Mitt Romney predictably stated that the best course of action for America was to repeal and replace the ACA.  But then he started rattling off the things that he would not change because they really do help people.  He would not eliminate the Medicaid expansion, pre-existing conditions clause, the 26 year old rule, or a host of other provisions in the bill.  The only thing that he specifically said he would undo is the individual mandate.  So, it appears the only thing the fiscally conservative Republican candidate for President wants to eliminate is the thing that actually pays for all of it and forces individual responsibility.  It must be an election year!  You can have all the goodies AND we won't charge you for them!  Then they go out and say they want to eliminate it because it's a "tax on the middle class".  I'm sorry, no it's not.  It's a tax on free loaders. 

 

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.  Weren't these exact same arguments being made 20 years ago only with the Republicans pushing for the individual mandate?  And which party is supposed to contain all the budget hawks and fiscal conservatives?

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My point about Canada was not that everyone is up in arms about it.  They love it. They've never had a wonderful system like ours.  Yes, everybody gets the same almost adequate care.  My story was not anectodal, it happened to me.  There is not much incentive for Docs to go into the profession as their salaries are not very high.  There is a shortage of doctors in Canada.  As I said before, I want my docs to make a lot of money.

 

Yes, everyone gets care, but sometimes they have to wait.  Waiting 6 weeks for an MRI is expected and the norm, so no one complains.  I like to have more control over mine and my family's health care.

 

Here's another story that happened recently to me, those of you who want to say it never happened, fine.  My generation was used to calling the doctor day or night if a child was sick, and if the doctor wasnt in, an answering service picked up and directed the call to whomever was on-call that evening.

 

About a month ago, my grandson (1yo) had a fever and after trying all the common things, we couldn't get it down.  I told her to call the Dr., no one was in, and the message said to go to Children's hosp.  When we got there, the entire waiting room was filled with sick children, but none that we could see had any kind of an injury.  According to the nurse, it was like that every night because doctors aren't available and people use the ER as an office.

 

The costs associated with these worthless trips to the ER clearly cannot be contained long term.  This is whats happening to our health care.  I don't like it, and as your children get sick and you cannot get care you are used too, then you won't like it either.  Worrying about the person without insurance will seem unimportant to you when you are talking about your family.

 

 

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Worrying about the person without insurance will seem unimportant to you when you are talking about your family.

 

Unless it's your family who doesn't have insurance.

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The current system turns people away from insurance, even if they're willing, able, and happy to pay for it.  Walking into the ER with insurance is a whole different ballgame than walking in there without it.

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I understand that.  I never said that some things shouldn't be changed. I just want to limit the government involvment in it.

 

People are taken in emergency rooms based on need, not insurance.  That is completely untrue.  No one is turned away in an emergency situation.

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That wasn't my point.  Going to the ER without insurance could cause such financial ruin that it sets your family back for generations.

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I just don't understand conservatives way of thinking in nominating the one man who was essentially the creator of Obamacare to run against Obamacare.  Rick Santorum is/was wrong about a lot of things, but he was dead on with this argument about Romney. 

 

There are good arguments for and against the ACA, but relying on a guy, who implemented it successfully making it wildly popular in his state,  to repeal it seems so bizarre.  Especially when you consider the fact that the individual mandate was a conservative idea championed for decades to begin with.  It was thought of as 'personal responsibility' all through the 90's by these same conservatives screaming "Socialism" today

 

Conservatives have an argument in regards to the  George Stephanapolous's interview with Obama where Obama vehemently denied it was a tax increase.  However, they can't really take advantage of it because Romney said the EXACT SAME THING in an interview http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/06/romney-acknowledges-his-healthcare-plan-imposed-a-tax-in-08/ . How Romney got the nomination is beyond me

 

Politics is just bizarre

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Yes, the system is not perfect.

 

Hey, another anectdotal story, as I know everyone enjoys them!  The same person in Canada who finally got her own Dr. after years of waiting, and was so happy about it (hated she couldn't get a Dr, but just loves her health care plan), could not believe that my daughter was held responsible for the car accident she caused!

 

In Canada, everyone's car insurance just pays to fix their own car!  No-fault insurance!  Just great.  Make no one responsible, make someone else pay for it, and then everyone's insurance goes up!

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Has an audit ever been done on any hospital? Maybe the government should staff one person at each hospital to make sure there are no more abuses.

If this plan is to be successful it needs to cut down on fraud and overspending.

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^what's so bizarre about it?  Based on all the Obama ads attacking Romney's record as Governor, apparently his healthcare program in Massachusetts did nothing but run up the debt & kill job creation... 

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>Walking into the ER with insurance is a whole different ballgame than walking in there without it.

 

Well you still usually end up owing huge sums of money even if you do have insurance.  I went into the Good Sam ER a few years ago, they scanned my insurance card, then lost the record of that scan.  So I got a bill for $2,700.  I called the insurance company and they declared that I still owed $1,700.  Then miscellaneous bills in the $75-125 range kept trickling in even after insurance had "settled" it.  I was pretty sure they were fraudulent bills and one or two of them were. 

 

DanB, this is the best health care system in the world, when there is so much room for fraud? 

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^Correction.... hospitals may collect half as much when treating an indigent.... but surgeries for people with insurance are SIGNIFICANTLY less costly than surgeries for people without insurance.  Take a look at your hospital bill.  You will see significant write-offs and adjustments the hospital has given to your insurance provider that you wouldn't get if you don't have insurance.  We're talking 60%-80% in many cases.  Insurance companies only pay a fraction of the bill originally charged.  They have the buying power to negotiate the rates down with hospitals.

 

But also see this article about how the cash cost is often even lower -- because the insured are the ones paying for the uninsured.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/27/business/la-fi-medical-prices-20120527

 

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DanB, this is the best health care system in the world, when there is so much room for fraud? 

 

Yes, as was stated previously in this thread, that is what happens when government gets overly involved.  I think the post used tuition costs skyrocketing when loans became so easily attainable, and the home market when everyone was approved for homes.  Do you believe this will help eliminate or help increase fraud and costs?  I see both of them going up.

 

Yes, I believe we have the best health care system, the administration of it sucks! 

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The American health care system is the best in the world...if you're rich.  For the rest of us, I'll take the commie Canadian health care.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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^what's so bizarre about it?  Based on all the Obama ads attacking Romney's record as Governor, apparently his healthcare program in Massachusetts did nothing but run up the debt & kill job creation...

 

I just don't understanding the line of thinking.  Mitt Romney is the architect of the tax hike that Republicans plan to make central to the campaign this year.  It would be like Donald Trump declaring war on combovers

 

In fact, it gets worse from a GOP PR standpoint.  RomneyCare actually covers undocumented illegals and abortions in Massachusetts. 

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