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Guest jhonopolis

Cleveland: Downtown: Jack Cleveland Casino - Phase 2

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I think it could be time for a Phase 2 thread.

 

One thing that I hope for phase 2 is that they build with the river in mind.

 

Here is another extension to a possible boardwalk plan.

http://goo.gl/maps/XT3j

 

I think it would be a good idea to continue the boardwalk over there, and have the Casino be built along the boardwalk, with either retail or restaurants built in the casino facing outward along the boardwalk, with a casino entrance up to the gambling floors. The only issue is whether Sherwin Williams would allow a boardwalk to be built through their property.

 

From the casino website:

 

"As a truly urban casino, plans call for the development to include outward facing restaurants and retail to engage pedestrians and support existing cultural, nightlife and sports attractions downtown"

 

Cleveland could have something really special if they decided to build a large boardwalk along the river. Starting at the eastbank and connecting it to the Casino as well as Rivergate park.

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I wouldn't cross your fingers too much on the river.  I am sure there will be some great scenic overlooks, but I doubt phase II will have much interaction at river level (other than parking).  From the plans we have seen, it appears the focus will be much more on Huron Rd.  The Intersection with Ontario certainly could use some re-thinking to make it more pedestrian friendly.

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I think it could be time for a Phase 2 thread.

 

One thing that I hope for phase 2 is that they build with the river in mind.

 

Here is another extension to a possible boardwalk plan.

http://goo.gl/maps/XT3j

 

I think it would be a good idea to continue the boardwalk over there, and have the Casino be built along the boardwalk, with either retail or restaurants built in the casino facing outward along the boardwalk, with a casino entrance up to the gambling floors. The only issue is whether Sherwin Williams would allow a boardwalk to be built through their property.

 

Beautiful! Love it. Plus you can connect Extension 1 and 2 by continuing along the eastern side of the peninsula.

 

If Sherwin is against public access (they have been rumored to be in the past) it's maybe possible to construct the boardwalk out over the river in that section. Wouldn't be easy dealing with the Army Corps and all of the Fed navigable river type constraints I'm sure though.

 

Groups advocating for public access to the river/lake could help to steer Dan and Co. away from a "nothing but parking" approach to this area. Again, this would be a terrible waste of waterfront property. Smart, forward thinking cities usually don't allow for that to happen.

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^Yeah because the city has not rolled over or nothing on every issue to date with Mr. Gilbert.

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^Yeah because the city has not rolled over or nothing on every issue to date with Mr. Gilbert.

 

Right. That is just unacceptable.

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When was the last time someone called Cleveland a "Forward thinking city" though hahaha. I know not to expect much, but I think it should be demanded. Im sick of giving in to being mediocre.

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The Intersection with Ontario certainly could use some re-thinking to make it more pedestrian friendly.

 

Skywalks!  :)

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The Intersection with Ontario certainly could use some re-thinking to make it more pedestrian friendly.

 

Skywalks!  :)

 

Motion to ban jborger from the exclusive "boardwalk club."

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What I'm more interested in is the fact that Dan Gilbert said in an interview (with WEWS, I believe) that the second casino would not be a "Horseshoe" branded casino. I hope they use the "Caesar's" brand for the other casino. He said the two would have different experiences. Excited about that. And the whole idea to make a Times Square type area with the two casinos and renovations to the Q.

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What I'm more interested in is the fact that Dan Gilbert said in an interview (with WEWS, I believe) that the second casino would not be a "Horseshoe" branded casino. I hope they use the "Caesar's" brand for the other casino. He said the two would have different experiences. Excited about that. And the whole idea to make a Times Square type area with the two casinos and renovations to the Q.

 

My issue with Caesar's is the decor and architecture. They can get pretty tacky with the fake columns and statues etc. Fine for Vegas and AC, but not for CLE. If I see something that looks even remotely like the Parthenon rising above Huron I pray Barbarians will destroy it.

 

But in all seriousness, I think we're all glad that they toned down the western theme at the Horseshoe.

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I wouldn't take that too literally, though.  I think they just threw something together to show what a casino there could look like.  It's a bit of a jumbled mess, really.

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Phase 2 will be much more likely to have interaction with the street and with the Gilbert-operated arena across the street than interaction with the river.

 

 

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Why do we perceive there to be a mutual exclusivity between developing pedestrian friendly retail on the river side versus the Huron side? Actual gaming areas in casinos tend to be windowless, and so are likely to be confined to the center of the building. That leaves the entire outer ring of the building for retail, restaurants, etc.

 

I realize an additional parking structure will need to be located somewhere, but Rock Caesars bought quite a large lot. Moreover, 515 Euclid has shown us that retail and parking can peacefully coexist.

 

Now most people I know have a natural attraction to water, even if it is just to sit and take in the view for a bit. The last time I held an in-depth conversation with a bunch of cars, however, they overwhelmingly voiced a proclivity to sit and stare at a Wayne Visible Gas Pump. In fact, one '57 Cadillac in my focus group claimed that given a choice, it would prefer to vacation at the Iowa 80 Truck Stop over Hawaii everytime. It therefore seems to be both a bad business decision, and a bad design decision, to leave the river front area of the lot for a bunch of sour grapes vehicles that have no desire to be there in the first place.

 

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^^I think you underestimate just how much of a drop there is between Huron and the River.  Also, due to engineering concerns (which were rampant when the CC/MM was proposed for this site), I would be surprised if the building is not on stilts in one form or another. 

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You don't think they could be going lower class for the phase 2 casino, could they? "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

If the fake stores they used in the rendering video is any indication ("Ducci", "B and G", etc.) then no

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You don't think they could be going lower class for the phase 2 casino, could they? "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

If the fake stores they used in the rendering video is any indication ("Ducci", "B and G", etc.) then no

 

But if those are the actual names of the "cheap knock off" stores that will be included in this phase then yes.  :wink:

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You don't think they could be going lower class for the phase 2 casino, could they? "Different" doesn't necessarily mean "better."

If the fake stores they used in the rendering video is any indication ("Ducci", "B and G", etc.) then no

 

But if those are the actual names of the "cheap knock off" stores that will be included in this phase then yes.  :wink:

 

LOL touche.

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i wish phase 1 never happened in the first place

 

Why? You rather see the Higbee building sit vacant for years unlit creating a dead spot like it has been? And the money not coming in to the city? And we got the excitement of being the first to open in the state.

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Early Look at Phase 2. I heard that in Gilbert's interview yesterday as well.  It reminded me of an article & video that was online a while ago.  It mostly shows Phase II, but that corner does have a "Mini-Times Square" look/feel to it.

 

 

Early Look at Cleveland Casino Video

 

 

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,20680.2760.html#ixzz1xMJtXi2f

 

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^^I think you underestimate just how much of a drop there is between Huron and the River.  Also, due to engineering concerns (which were rampant when the CC/MM was proposed for this site), I would be surprised if the building is not on stilts in one form or another.

 

You may be right good sir, but I don't know that I've "badly" underestimated it. I had personally guessed the drop from Huron to the river to be approximately 120 feet. My bro Clevecane put his guess around the 150 foot mark. The closest factual data I can find is from articles from years ago, when MMPI was assessing this site versus The Mall for the CC & MM. Those articles all quote MMPI studies stating it is a "five story" drop off. Now I have no idea what they consider to be a "story." Despite this, I feel like my bro's guess makes for a fairly conservative estimate, and my own guess wouldn't be too wildly off base.

 

Regardless, I guess I don't see even a 200 foot drop being an excuse for bad design and neglecting the riverfront. Already in this thread we've mentioned three possible solutions. You brought up stilts, MorningTheft mentioned a huge balcony overlooking the river, and I suggested a garage with retail, restaurants, etc. I truly believe combining MorningTheft's vision with my own would be the way to go. Think 515 Euclid in reverse.

 

"Interaction with the river" doesn't always have to mean "interaction at river level." Let's stick the parking garage at river's edge, just as you and I both consider likely. But let the garage have a design VERY roughly similar to Frank Lloyd Wright's Monona Terrace in Madison, WI. And just like at Monona, the entire roof is a giant plaza overlooking the river. A plaza with trees, gardens, fountains, beautiful lighting, and plenty of seating. This rooftop plaza is then at grade with, and running all the way to, the casino "high up the hill" on Huron. And this river-facing outer edge of the casino itself has the mixture of retail, restaurants, clubs, etc.

 

The evil greedy smoker in me hopes a nice cigar shop is included. :evil: Imagine having a nice Opus X while sitting and enjoying a 180 degree vista of both the river and the flats sprawl out 150 feet below you. SurfOhio and the rest of the "Boardwalk Club" may disagree, but I would very much still consider this to be interacting with the river, and opening up access to our waterfront.

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according to Google earth

 

public square is at 664ft

 

the river is at 575 ft

 

since Huron and Prospect are not "land" but are bridges, the difference between public square and prospect is +10-12 feet.

 

674-676ft for Huron and Prospect over tower city but only 665ft at Huron.

 

the difference between the river and hurons is between 101 ft and 90 ft.

 

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My personal dream wish is for there to be a marina off the river that connects to the parking garage and therefore the casino.  I have no idea how this would be accomplished (covered boat docking?? with the parking garage above??).

 

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I always like that idea as well.  I know that Gilbert wants to make the Huron/Ontario intersection a "Times Square" of sorts, but to have some sort of park access that wraps from the intersection out to the river would be uniquely Cleveland and fantastic. 

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That would be incredible!  Is that a waterfall on the parking garage?

 

Not only that, they've got a river flowing from inside Tower City cascading down to the Cuyahoga.

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That would be incredible!  Is that a waterfall on the parking garage?

 

Not only that, they've got a river flowing from inside Tower City cascading down to the Cuyahoga.

 

That river concept could be absolutely stunning.

 

Not to get too too excited from this, as we've seen lots of pretty pictures.  But the depiction shown would be that win-win scenario, giving all kinds of parking for Gilbert in addition to vastly improving public access to and along the riverfront. 

 

[edit: AND give Forest City a riverfront outdoor retail component....win-win-win?]

 

The powerful UO Boardwalk Commission would approve of this, I am sure.

 

 

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I always like that idea as well.  I know that Gilbert wants to make the Huron/Ontario intersection a "Times Square" of sorts, but to have some sort of park access that wraps from the intersection out to the river would be uniquely Cleveland and fantastic.

 

Personally, I'd rather have Times Square. That's just me.

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Times Square is awful as nearly every New Yorker will attest to. I would much rather have this type of development!

 

Because of the river, elevation differences, Cleveland Thermal plant, RTA tracks etc, the surroundings don't lend themselves well to the kind of density that makes a Times Square, Yonge Street, Piccadilly Circus, etc. possible.

 

I wouldn't mind if Playhouse Square became a miniature version of TS, however. :)


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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Times Square is awful as nearly every New Yorker will attest to. I would much rather have this type of development!

 

I strongly disagree. Just a difference of opinion. I Love stuff like Times Square and I'm strongly in favor of Dan's plan. That's sexy to me and we need to add some sexy to our image. But that's my opinion

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What happens to the waterfall when the temperature drops below 32?

 

I don't see the waterfall concept as practical.

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What happens to the waterfall when the temperature drops below 32?

 

I don't see the waterfall concept as practical.

 

It's man-made. You shut off the water.

 

Or, you let it keep running long enough to create a tourist attraction. Each time the waterfall freezes, melts and refreezes, it will look different and create beautiful new "sculptures" for people to visit, sketch, photograph and maybe even climb. There will be reasons to visit it multiple times each winter, and don't you think Cleveland needs more fun things to do in the winter that celebrates winter?......

 

2.jpg

 

U137P200T1D207198F12DT20081225004559.jpg

 

35_13frozen_waterfall_in_Colorado.jpg


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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What happens to the waterfall when the temperature drops below 32?

 

I don't see the waterfall concept as practical.

 

It's man-made. You shut off the water.

 

Or, you let it keep running long enough to create a tourist attraction. Each time the waterfall freezes, melts and refreezes, it will look different and create beautiful new "sculptures" for people to visit, sketch, photograph and maybe even climb. There will be reasons to visit it multiple times each winter, and don't you think Cleveland needs more fun things to do in the winter that celebrates winter?......

 

2.jpg

 

U137P200T1D207198F12DT20081225004559.jpg

 

35_13frozen_waterfall_in_Colorado.jpg

 

Great pictures KJP. I was thinking of Niagara Falls and pictures I have seen of them frozen. Cool stuff.

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That waterfall is so badass, I love out of the box thinking like that. But then of  course I say to myself that could never happen in Cleveland. But why not? Cleveland deserves it and much more.

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Times Square is awful as nearly every New Yorker will attest to. I would much rather have this type of development!

 

Because of the river, elevation differences, Cleveland Thermal plant, RTA tracks etc, the surroundings don't lend themselves well to the kind of density that makes a Times Square, Yonge Street, Piccadilly Circus, etc. possible.

 

I wouldn't mind if Playhouse Square became a miniature version of TS, however. :)

 

I'd simply be happy if they put that unkempt hill/cliff area to some kind of use. More infrastructure would be great, but really, even more modest changes would be a great leap forward.

 

Like, if it was a series of well-kept stairways at least if would provide access to the river. It would look a thousand times nicer. It could be a very unique place. Think Filbert steps up Telegraph Hill in San Francisco.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/82479320@N00/3503840808/#

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i dont see why there cant be ts-like spectaculars, as i believe that style of signage is referred to as, at street level and riverfront access/redevelopment. both would be best. the tc mall shoppers and gateway crowds would love all these ideas. wow - cant you just see people pouring into the casinos and heading down to the riverfront after events? gilbert & fcr really need to be held to doing this right and doing it well.

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Better still, imagine if the Jet Express from Lorain and the Lake Erie Islands docked there AND the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad had a station there. Sadly, since we don't need to dig/buy a new river, the Jet Express is the only likely addition any time soon. CVSR coming there is a $20 million project, plus an annual operating subsidy from someone other than the National Park Service.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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^ ^^ ^^^

 

Okay, so we've got TS-style spectaculars on Huron, Telegraph Hill style staircases to the river, TC retail extended out to and along the water (on a boardwalk of course), Jet Express AND Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad!

 

I'LL TAKE IT.

 

This is the downtown we deserve. Nothing less. Moderator, please cc D. Gilbert and sticky this at the top of the thread.

 

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Better still, imagine if the Jet Express from Lorain and the Lake Erie Islands docked there AND the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad had a station there. Sadly, since we don't need to dig/buy a new river, the Jet Express is the only likely addition any time soon. CVSR coming there is a $20 million project, plus an annual operating subsidy from someone other than the National Park Service.

 

Jet Express would also require a deal with the Coast Guard and Norfolk Southern to get access to the bridge at the mouth.  I love the idea of a high speed ferry to either the islands or Port Stanley, but if they have to sit waiting on the bridge for 30 minutes they'd probably rather just go to E9th St with the Goodtime.

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Jet Express would also require a deal with the Coast Guard and Norfolk Southern to get access to the bridge at the mouth.  I love the idea of a high speed ferry to either the islands or Port Stanley, but if they have to sit waiting on the bridge for 30 minutes they'd probably rather just go to E9th St with the Goodtime.

 

They're trying to work something out. I don't know if it's a regular schedule or if its casino junkets by boat, rather than by bus. Either way, it's pretty cool that "something" could happen with that. Wish I could say the same for the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR.


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

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I am curious.  The gaming commission put out numbers stating that the Horseshoe was running slightly above expectations in terms of traffic and revenue.  It seems to be handling the volume.  Where do Caesars and Rock Gaming expect the additional traffic and revenue to support a second (phase 2) casino to come from?

    1. More frequent visits by existing gamblers?

    2. New visitors, eg conventioneers and tourists?

    3. Loyalty program members from elsewhere?

Are there an additional 3 million visitors per year "out there" to get to the 8 million visitor expectation for the two casinos combined?

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