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Cincinnati: Downtown: Heritage Bank Center

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Is it worth it to Cincinnati to invest multiple hundreds of millions of dollars on a new arena to split the current concerts that go to Louisville, Indianapolis, and Columbus currently get another way? It's not as if we are all of a sudden going to get all of the concerts and every big band would skip those other three cities. I don't think it's worth it for Cincinnati to put money into a new stadium. Hopefully UC and the current owners can work out a deal that benefits both parties and we can be happy with an updated space with larger concourses, new suites, etc.

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Ville, Indy, Columbus get Arena events that Cincy does not because they have better venues. That simple.

I have to agree that the students at OSU likely have more people and more disposable income than those attending UC. UC gets a lot of first generation students and commuters who spend little money. I would be willing to bet students at OSU likely come from more affluent families with more disposable income. And students as a whole are pretty bad with money while in school.

 

Ryan - I think that there would need to be more data to indicate if this perception is true about OSU v UC. Given the size of OSU and UC there are a lot of students from every walk of life that we really don't know what background they are coming from. I would argue that your assertion is definitely true for Miami or Ohio U, but a city school like OSU is going to have a ton of commuters.  I think a better way to compare that data is to look at the student population in the entire area. For Columbus that would be OSU, Capital, Otterbien, Ohio Wesleyean, etc. and in Cincinnati, you have UC, Xavier, NKU, MSJ, Thomas More, Miami, etc. - Point being is that the total student population of both areas is pretty much a wash as well as the demographic of those students.

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^That's not necessarily true.  Miami University students, for example, aren't likely to trek all the way to Bogart's for a show, especially if they don't have a car.  OSU and UC students would due to close proximity.  What you really need to look at are dorm populations.  OSU has by far a larger dorm population than UC (or any school until you get to Minnesota, Florida, or Texas) and thus have more immediate disposable income.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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I agree that I made some assumptions, but there are definitely many more students living on campus at OSU vs. UC. There are about 10,700 students who live on campus at OSU. There are about 4,700 students who live on campus at UC. UC has about 33,000 students in the uptown campus. OSU has about 57,000 on the main campus. So by rough estimates, 18.7% of main campus OSU students live on campus and 14.2% of UC main campus students live on campus.

 

In no way am I saying that OSU students are rich or anything. I'm just saying that as a whole, the students at OSU are larger in number and likely have higher spending power than those at UC. Not that any of this has anything to do with a new arena in Cincinnati...

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Ryan:

OSU is a huge and yes has more students than UC. But, if you take all the schools in the region (excluding community colleges) the amount of college students is roughly the same. NKU, Miami, Xavier, MSJ students are just as likely to attend a concert at US Bank arena as a UC student.  I also think you are selling the OWU and OBU students short in Columbus.

 

Even if OSU has a higher income demographic than UC, the other schools in the region would more than bridge that gap.

 

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Living at home & commuting is likely to leave you with more disposable income, not less. That's why most kids do it, after all. I can't think of any 18-22 year-olds I've known who wanted to live with their folks.

 

Are there really Miami students without cars?

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\

Are there really Miami students without cars?

 

A large number of first and second year students are not allowed to have cars on campus and are forced to live on campus. You can either park your car on a residential street and hope no one reports your car abandoned and has it towed, or you don't have a car.

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Miami students may not trek to Bogarts or a niche venue, but they will trek to an arena show. Hell OSU students would trek to Cincinnati to see their favorite band as well as UC students going to Columbus. It is what college students do.

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Students aside, Columbus has an additional leg up on Cincinnati.  A large workforce of government employees who worry less about stability.  State capitols always have this advantage when considering entertainment dollars available in a market.

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Students aside, Columbus has an additional leg up on Cincinnati.  A large workforce of government employees who worry less about stability.  State capitols always have this advantage when considering entertainment dollars available in a market.

 

Again it is a statement based more on feeling than empirical data. Yes, Columbus has more government jobs, but it is a smaller metro so fewer people mean fewer dollars to spend.

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^Well...technically if we're going by empirical data, Columbus is now a larger metropolitan area than Cincinnati, CSA-wise.  MSA-wise, they are similar (along with Cleveland and Indianapolis).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_statistical_areas


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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Which is the point.  The idea of OWU/Otterbein and NKY/Cincinnati Bible College/Thomas Moore somehow contributing to the spending power making Columbus and Cincinnati a wash is, at least to me, the definition of "splitting hairs."  The general point was that OSU has a larger student population than UC and thus a larger population of disposable income.  Which I guess leads to a new arena or a RHCP show or whatever.


"You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers

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The number of pro sports teams in a city is limited by residential population and number of likely luxury box buyers.  A company that can barely afford to buy a box at Great American Ballpark doesn't have the money to buy a box at Paul Brown also, let alone a third at an arena. 

 

Similarly, a sports fan who might go to 5 Reds games and 2 Bengals games per year isn't going to go to 3 or 4 basketball or hockey games without tending to go to fewer baseball or football games. 

 

Look at the stands at games in the huge cities -- there are empty seats at games in LA and NYC all the time because there are so many pro sports teams in each city. 

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^Well...technically if we're going by empirical data, Columbus is now a larger metropolitan area than Cincinnati, CSA-wise.  MSA-wise, they are similar (along with Cleveland and Indianapolis).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_statistical_areas

 

I have no comment on the number of college students argument (talk about hair splitting for no reason), but I find it entertaining that Cambridge is included in the Columbus CSA.  It's like 80 or 85 miles away!  I didn't realize they included that until you used the link. 

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The number of pro sports teams in a city is limited by residential population and number of likely luxury box buyers.  A company that can barely afford to buy a box at Great American Ballpark doesn't have the money to buy a box at Paul Brown also, let alone a third at an arena. 

 

Similarly, a sports fan who might go to 5 Reds games and 2 Bengals games per year isn't going to go to 3 or 4 basketball or hockey games without tending to go to fewer baseball or football games. 

 

Look at the stands at games in the huge cities -- there are empty seats at games in LA and NYC all the time because there are so many pro sports teams in each city. 

 

Very true.  I think the argument being made though is that you can't have a new arena without another team/tenant.  Whether or not the city could support such a thing is another story, but it a prerequisite.  So basically you need:  more people->new team->new arena.  If it doesn't happen in that order, it's not sustainable.

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Jake makes a good point, ultimately, the disposable income of students, average Joes is irrelevant. That does not support the teams. They need to have a sustainable business class that will sell luxury boxes. The UC renovation is a perfect example of this. It is not the amount of seats they are adding but it is luxury boxes that will increase revenue. If you look at a lot of colleges who do stadium renovations, they are actually getting smaller but adding luxury boxes and high end seating.

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Jake makes a good point, ultimately, the disposable income of students, average Joes is irrelevant. That does not support the teams. They need to have a sustainable business class that will sell luxury boxes. The UC renovation is a perfect example of this. It is not the amount of seats they are adding but it is luxury boxes that will increase revenue. If you look at a lot of colleges who do stadium renovations, they are actually getting smaller but adding luxury boxes and high end seating.

 

Very true.  But if you look upthread, my reason for bringing disposable income into the thread was a question of why major concert acts are passing by Cincinnati.    If given only so many routing options in a given time period, the promoter is going to go with the proven winner.  In this case, Columbus with its student population, government jobs and competing arenas is winning out. 

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Lincoln said that in recent years Cincinnati has lost out on events because U.S. Bank Arena wasn’t big enough or because amenities were better elsewhere.

 

“Times change, expectations change,” he said. “It’s older, especially when you compare it to Louisville or Columbus or Indianapolis.”

 

I agree with the above.

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Jake makes a good point, ultimately, the disposable income of students, average Joes is irrelevant. That does not support the teams. They need to have a sustainable business class that will sell luxury boxes. The UC renovation is a perfect example of this. It is not the amount of seats they are adding but it is luxury boxes that will increase revenue. If you look at a lot of colleges who do stadium renovations, they are actually getting smaller but adding luxury boxes and high end seating.

 

Very true.  But if you look upthread, my reason for bringing disposable income into the thread was a question of why major concert acts are passing by Cincinnati.    If given only so many routing options in a given time period, the promoter is going to go with the proven winner.  In this case, Columbus with its student population, government jobs and competing arenas is winning out. 

 

See, I think it is the facility and amenities more than anything. Luxury boxes sell for concerts too and that drives revenue more than the college crowd.  I get what you are saying CleBurger, but that may be 1-2% of the equation where the facility carries the majority of it.  Nationwide is a much nicer facility. So is the QUicken and YUM as well as Indy's place. Cincy is losing out to Louisville and Cleveland and Indy and none of those cities have the student population of Columbus either. I think you may have merit to your point but only when comparing apples to apples in facilities and right now USBank and Nationwide are not on the same level

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We've ALWAYS been skipped over on all sorts of concert tours.  In the 90s there were all sorts of bands who played the goddamn Hara Arena but didn't play Cincinnati.  The only place in Cincinnati Nirvana ever played was...Murphy's Pub on W. Clifton. 

 

 

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A lot of it stemmed from the Who incident in the 70's when the city banned festival seating. It really hurt the concert industry here and even after it was repealed, after more than a generation of lost concerts, Cincinnati was off the radar completely. It is going to take years and work to build that back up again. 

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We've ALWAYS been skipped over on all sorts of concert tours.  In the 90s there were all sorts of bands who played the goddamn Hara Arena but didn't play Cincinnati.  The only place in Cincinnati Nirvana ever played was...Murphy's Pub on W. Clifton. 

 

 

 

No way!

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We've ALWAYS been skipped over on all sorts of concert tours.  In the 90s there were all sorts of bands who played the goddamn Hara Arena but didn't play Cincinnati.  The only place in Cincinnati Nirvana ever played was...Murphy's Pub on W. Clifton. 

 

 

 

No way!

 

Actually I looked it up last night and I was wrong...Nirvana played once at Murphy's Pub and twice at a place called "Shorty's" which was at 2601 Vine St.  That's now the CD/Game Exchange.  Apparently that club was only open for about two years, it was definitely before my time.  "My Time" started around 1994. 

 

 

 

 

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We've ALWAYS been skipped over on all sorts of concert tours.  In the 90s there were all sorts of bands who played the goddamn Hara Arena but didn't play Cincinnati.  The only place in Cincinnati Nirvana ever played was...Murphy's Pub on W. Clifton. 

 

 

 

Cincinnati also taxes touring bands--2.1% of their gross income.  So does Cleveland.  Columbus and Dayton do not.

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^Good point.  The wild disparity in local/state taxation of professional athletes is rumored to have influenced some free agent deals.  Cavs fans...I don't think Miami has a local earnings tax. 

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^Also Shin-Soo Choo went to Texas instead of playing for the Yankees partially because Texas has no income tax (even though they offered him less money in total)

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Man, I lived 6 houses away from Murphy's at that time, really wish I would have been there!

 

The problem is when you see bands "before they were famous", it's also before they were good. 

 

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It's often true. Think about how many bands, after getting big, release recordings made prior to the first album that everyone loves. Very often, it sounds like sh!t. You have to be a big fan of the band to get into distilling that skill they later honed.

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I will note that Toledo managed to build a very nice downtown arena recently that is much nicer than U.S. Bank very recently.

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If US Bank Arena updated its exterior white panels with something more modern (ideally glass), the facade would be so vastly improved. Also, a bit of thoughtful landscaping could make quickly improve the outside platform area, especially overlooking the River. Right now it's just a sea of concrete. Those few steps would go a long way to making it feel less dated.

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1970s architecture is quite hideous, and the absolute worst at connecting to its surrounding environment. US Bank Arena is a great example. Zero connection to the street.

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I'm going to guess they wanted it separated because of all the people who would congregate around the arena & stadium before & after shows.

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I am confident a new arena would rectify any issue with acts bypassing Cincy.  Honestly there are not that many of these shows and I am not concerned with the next time Katy Perry plays, but it would be nice to be a stop on everyone's tour.  There was an article that I am trying to find that discussed this very topic, and Cincinnati actually had the most concerts of any regional city (with all venues considered), but there were some large acts that did go to the newer arenas.  One thing to consider is that Riverbend is one of the most successful outdoor venues that gets the biggest shows of the summer each year (e.g. Radiohead) so I would think this would translate to an indoor venue.

 

US Bank arena is serviceable but definitely not on the same level as the newer arenas.

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Again, the arena we have was built by and is still owned by a private company.  And as I mentioned several months ago, we have a B-quality arena, meaning public financing of a new A-quality arena would mean $300-odd million dollars for an incremental improvement.  We wouldn't be going from no downtown arena to an A-class downtown arena.  We'd be throwing big money down to get a few more concerts each year, since the NBA and NHL are unlikely to relocate here for a variety of reasons. 

 

So a horrible ROI.  But this thread continues as if a new arena is on the horizon.  It's as pointless as speculating about a 100-floor office tower going up here.  It's just plain not going to happen nor should it. 

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Just read today that TD Garden in Boston is getting a $70M makeover. That arena is only 20 years old. Seats 20K

 

It needed a makeover the day after it opened.  They built it with the spirit of the old Garden in mind, and kept way too much of it!

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The question is what does a new arena bring to the table. NCAA tourney and Sweet 16 rounds, Hockey Final 4, a few extra concerts. Jake is right, is it worth 300-400 million for this? KC did that recently, but they did not build 2 new stadiums in the last decade. Maybe in 2025 it may be worth the capital investment.

 

Unless we are going to really push for an NBA or NHL team it is not worth it. I don't think there is the desire to push for either. I know KC built their arena in hopes of getting the NBA back and that has not happened yet and does not look like it will.

 

I do not see UC Basketball as the same draw as Louisville ball because, Cincy is a major league city and U of L is the only thing happening in Louisville. There is more diversity in Cincy to spread the dollars around. Therefore, even UC would not be a large enough tenant to support a 300-400 million upgrade of the arena. There needs to be an NHL or NBA team for that.

 

To be honest, NHL is attainable. Columbus may not like it but there are enough marginal NHL teams out there that would jump at a package to go to a better revenue market or better arena lease. If there was enough support for that it could be a possibility.

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Just wanted to give the concert fans here a quick comparison using Pollstar.com.  While not scientific (as in some shows may have yet to be announced), I looked at Cincinnati, vs Columbus (both arenas), vs Cleveland. 

 

Currently on the books for 2014:

 

Cincinnati:  US Bank Arena 5 shows

Tue 04/08/14 Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band

Fri 05/09/14 Mike Epps

Fri 06/27/14 Bruno Mars

Sun 08/03/14 "Jesus Christ Superstar Arena Spectacular"

Wed 08/27/14 Austin Mahone

 

Columbus: Schottenstein Center  4 shows

Sun 04/13/14 Miley Cyrus

Fri 04/18/14 Cirque du Soleil - "Michael Jackson: The Immortal"

Sat 04/19/14 Cirque du Soleil - "Michael Jackson: The Immortal"  

Tue 04/29/14 Arcade Fire

Fri 05/02/14 Casting Crown

 

Columbus:  Nationwide Arena  4 shows

Tue 04/15/14 Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band

Wed 04/30/14 Cher

Wed 08/13/14 Katy Perry

Sun 10/19/14 Fleetwood Mac

 

Cleveland:  Quicken Loans Arena  6 shows

Fri 05/02/14 Cher

Sun 05/18/14 Lady Gaga

Sat 06/28/14 Bruno Mars

Wed 07/09/14 "Walking With Dinosaurs"

Sun 08/10/14 "Jesus Christ Superstar Arena Spectacular"

Thu 08/14/14 Katy Perry

 

As you can see, Cincinnati's little ole US Bank Arena is holding it's own.  Of course if you invested $300 million in public dollars, you'd have that honeymoon year where they pay the Eagles to come play, and maybe a Billy Joel/Elton--marquis dates.  But after that it settles down into the doldrums of concert market routing.  What markets have we played, which ones do we need to play, and which ones can afford them.

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

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The Fleet Center in Boston is not an attractive building, but who cares?  It wasn't built with much or any public funding, it's home to two big-time tenants, and is easily reached by Boston's extensive public transportation. 

 

Again, how does someone argue that we should throw all this public money to get basically nothing in return?  Please, someone please lock this thread.  It's a waste of everybody's time. 

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As you can see, Cincinnati's little ole US Bank Arena is holding it's own.  Of course if you invested $300 million in public dollars, you'd have that honeymoon year where they pay the Eagles to come play, and maybe a Billy Joel/Elton--marquis dates.  But after that it settles down into the doldrums of concert market routing.  What markets have we played, which ones do we need to play, and which ones can afford them.

 

 

Good point, also, don't forget the huge acts do stadium tours and Cincinnati has been competing well for those in recent years.

 

bottom line, the ROI for concerts alone is not there. Need to have a pro team with 40 home dates a year to make it.

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Just wanted to give the concert fans here a quick comparison using Pollstar.com.  While not scientific (as in some shows may have yet to be announced), I looked at Cincinnati, vs Columbus (both arenas), vs Cleveland. 

 

Currently on the books for 2014:

 

Cincinnati:  US Bank Arena 5 shows

Tue 04/08/14 Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band

Fri 05/09/14 Mike Epps

Fri 06/27/14 Bruno Mars

Sun 08/03/14 "Jesus Christ Superstar Arena Spectacular"

Wed 08/27/14 Austin Mahone

 

Columbus: Schottenstein Center  4 shows

Sun 04/13/14 Miley Cyrus

Fri 04/18/14 Cirque du Soleil - "Michael Jackson: The Immortal"

Sat 04/19/14 Cirque du Soleil - "Michael Jackson: The Immortal"  

Tue 04/29/14 Arcade Fire

Fri 05/02/14 Casting Crown

 

Columbus:  Nationwide Arena  4 shows

Tue 04/15/14 Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band

Wed 04/30/14 Cher

Wed 08/13/14 Katy Perry

Sun 10/19/14 Fleetwood Mac

 

Cleveland:  Quicken Loans Arena  6 shows

Fri 05/02/14 Cher

Sun 05/18/14 Lady Gaga

Sat 06/28/14 Bruno Mars

Wed 07/09/14 "Walking With Dinosaurs"

Sun 08/10/14 "Jesus Christ Superstar Arena Spectacular"

Thu 08/14/14 Katy Perry

 

As you can see, Cincinnati's little ole US Bank Arena is holding it's own.  Of course if you invested $300 million in public dollars, you'd have that honeymoon year where they pay the Eagles to come play, and maybe a Billy Joel/Elton--marquis dates.  But after that it settles down into the doldrums of concert market routing.  What markets have we played, which ones do we need to play, and which ones can afford them.

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Eagles played US Bank last month, and have played it in the past. 

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