Jump to content
KJP

Cleveland: Downtown: Tower City / CityBlock Development

RISK OF CLOSURE

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, PaxtonMarley said:

 

To clear the record, this wasn't what I thought "right off the bat."  I was chiming in response to another commenter who aptly noticed the potential closure of Prospect, which is used by several RTA routes and a significant feeder to the Veterans Memorial Bridge.  Second, if you read my other comments, actually my primary concern was that a popular public/gathering space could in essence be privatized.

 

But to your larger point about saboteur-ing Cleveland, no one has to jump head first into every single development initiative or be seduced by every Lyle Lanley to have strong civic pride.

Hahahah could be that closing Prospect for a tech incubator is more of a SHELBYVILLE idea

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a fan of the Blockland concept, but I still don't like the idea of completely closing Prospect.  If anything we should be diverting more traffic from Public Square to Prospect, but this will do the opposite and throw it back to Public Square.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am intersted to hear how the architects incorporate the historic elements of The Union Terminal while incorporating vibrant updates to the space.  

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, superior said:

 

Not completely.  You've help make some of my points.  Yes, todays market is more sustainable for upscale retailers.  In 1990, the downtown housing market wasn't strong.  Once Tower City opened, you began to see a downturn in storefronts along Euclid Ave.  This factor happened in a lot of markets that had a small downtown population.  The focus was to bring people within city cores for shopping.  The problem came in when people found other options.  Small market downtown malls usually suffered because of the lack of a sustained population.

 

It is a KNOWN fact that closed in malls are becoming extinct.  Think about it, the Cleveland area alone has lost almost all it's malls (Tower City, Galleria, Euclid Square, Shaker, Randall Park, etc.).  Most people either buy online or prefer to go to open air shopping centers today.

 

Banana Republic, Structure and the Gap had sustainability IMO over the years.  Gucci, Versace and Fendi was a hard sell for the Cleveland market during that timeframe.  Even the Disney store moved out rather quickly.  This is one of the main points why the downtown population has to reach 20,000+.  Cleveland is a hard sell for most high end retailers.  I can only imagine the frustration some of the local developers have during their pitches to some of these businesses. 

 

As an example, I currently live about an hour away from Frankfurt Germany.  None of these retailers have an issue with traffic flow in and out of their establishments.  None have sales issues either.  Tesla even has a location in downtown Frankfurt.  Gucci isn't leaving the New York, Chicago or LA markets no matter how many stores they close (I know Cleveland doesn't compare to them, but...).  When I go to some cities you will see that they will only allow a certain amount of customers into the establishment at a time.  People literally stand in line waiting to get in (like it's a club, lol).  The one thing they ALL have in common, they are in an open air shopping center or have a storefront. 

 

Bottom line, no retailer will leave a market that has proven to be financially beneficial to them.  Cleveland's slowly getting there and I can't wait.

I disagree.  It was not about Cleveland or Cleveland not being able to support stores.  It was about the stores not being FINANCIAL stable themselves.  Most of the stores in TC are no longer in existence.  in the 90s there were on 6/7 stand alone Gucci stores and Cleveland had one of the most opulent.  The store was STUNNING!    Gucci themselves was in a bad financial situation, along with no Creative Director.  The store in Columbus was opened in one design and Cleveland's in another.  The Cleveland store downsized, Columbus closed.  The LV was a franchise, yet would not meet brand standards.  The franchisee was the issue, which led to the store closure.  

 

Gucci did close stores, same with Barney's.  Barney's closed stores at Top Tier, first rate malls like Houston's Galleria.  This mall is amazing, in comparison it makes Beachwood look like two bit strip Mall.  As a point of reference the Gucci store on Fifth did close.  There was a ton of consolidation the affected upscale retailers. Gucci was purchased and rebranded.

 

You're comparing today with outside forces that affected the retain industry and Tower City.  Part of the problem is TC sucked the life off of Euclid Ave.  

 

Cleveland at on point had the most digital sales for luxury retailers right after TC slumped.  As often said.  It's a chicken meet egg situation.

 

Comparing a situation, where you live today, has no relevance to what happened in Cleveland. NONE!  Also the "line thing" makes no sense at all!  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t remember there being a Louis Vuitton in Tower city???? Fendi and Gucci yes, but LV I don’t, 

Addendum never mind I forgot even though Fendi is an Italian retailer it is under the LV brand.

Edited by osu87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

I disagree.  It was not about Cleveland or Cleveland not being able to support stores.  It was about the stores not being FINANCIAL stable themselves.  Most of the stores in TC are no longer in existence.  in the 90s there were on 6/7 stand alone Gucci stores and Cleveland had one of the most opulent.  The store was STUNNING!    Gucci themselves was in a bad financial situation, along with no Creative Director.  The store in Columbus was opened in one design and Cleveland's in another.  The Cleveland store downsized, Columbus closed.  The LV was a franchise, yet would not meet brand standards.  The franchisee was the issue, which led to the store closure.  

 

Gucci did close stores, same with Barney's.  Barney's closed stores at Top Tier, first rate malls like Houston's Galleria.  This mall is amazing, in comparison it makes Beachwood look like two bit strip Mall.  As a point of reference the Gucci store on Fifth did close.  There was a ton of consolidation the affected upscale retailers. Gucci was purchased and rebranded.

 

You're comparing today with outside forces that affected the retain industry and Tower City.  Part of the problem is TC sucked the life off of Euclid Ave.  

 

Cleveland at on point had the most digital sales for luxury retailers right after TC slumped.  As often said.  It's a chicken meet egg situation.

 

Comparing a situation, where you live today, has no relevance to what happened in Cleveland. NONE!  Also the "line thing" makes no sense at all!  

 

A Gucci store closing on Fifth Ave doesn't prove nor should it suggest that they left said market.  Again, Gucci or any other high end retailer isn't going to leave a market that has proven profitable.  The city of Cleveland itself is the only justification a retailer needs to determine if it can support stores.  Cleveland has continued this downward trend in population going on 70 years.  This isn't rocket science.  The only population that really seems to have increased is in downtown.

 

Cleveland should have a large digital sales point margin in comparison to some other markets who actually have luxury retail store fronts within driving distance.  That isn't unreasonable to comprehend why the numbers would be reflective (to your point, it wasn't consistent).  I actually can't think of one luxury store front in Cleveland (hopefully I'm incorrect).  The only locations I can think of is in Beachwood (which by your comparison to Houston's Galleria is closer to a flee market LOL) which have counter space in Nordstrom or Saks.

 

I've already mentioned that Tower City helped the demise of store fronts on Euclid.  Tower City decreased downtown's walkability to some degree.  The difference between a Cleveland storefront and other viable locations is that once a store closes, that property can remain vacant for years.  Retailers pay attention to these trends.

 

My comparison wasn't just for my locale (that was used as a point of reference).  The comparison to Cleveland is that retailers no longer are willing to jump into a market where they can't guarantee success.  When I mentioned people standing in lines outside of these luxury retailers, it was to prove a point (I've seen it at several locales).  People are willing to go to these retailers and do more than window shop.  The last thing a retailer would want to see is sales dropping consistently after opening into a new market. 

 

I view my perspective from a global standpoint.  Luxury retailers certainly do the same.  So know that they could care less the justification as to why it didn't work in Cleveland.  Please understand, it's a lot deeper than rebranding and consolidations.  If the market proves to be viable, they will force themselves onto that market.  All it takes is for ONE luxury retailer to open and be extremely successful in Cleveland (others will follow). 

 

You seem to be fully invested into this conversation.  I prefer to not continue because we are completely off topic.  If it's that big of an issue for you, you can send me a private message.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Eastside said:

"Ohio real-estate developers ditch ‘blockchain hub’ plans over lack of interest" Odd article

https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/07/02/cleveland-ohio-designers-blockchain-not-public-want/

 

Reads more like a fluff piece from a writer with a quota to fill and an utter lack of ideas. All he did was reinterpret a Cleveland.com article...

Edited by ASP1984
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Why does a "technology center" need to be in a shopping mall on top of a transit center? 

 

Where is the synergy.

 

Wouldn't this be better in Mid-Town next to Terdolph Park?

 

Exactly!.   This makes no sense to me.  They want to put a "technology center" in a perfect retail site, and build a suburban outlet mall in the parking lot of a GA airport.   Sometimes Cleveland planning makes me scratch my head.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Exactly!.   This makes no sense to me.  They want to put a "technology center" in a perfect retail site, and build a suburban outlet mall in the parking lot of a GA airport.   Sometimes Cleveland planning makes me scratch my head.  

If it's a perfect retail site then why is there no retail? There certainly wasn't any retail left even before they purposely stopped renewing leases.

 

I have no doubt that this tech center will include some retail. Just not to the extent it used to. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, KFM44107 said:

If it's a perfect retail site then why is there no retail? There certainly wasn't any retail left even before they purposely stopped renewing leases.

 

I have no doubt that this tech center will include some retail. Just not to the extent it used to. 

 

There are volumes in these forums on the subject but in TC it boiled down to the overall national retail climate combined with perceived security issues for patrons dealing with RTA riders (mostly schoolchildren).  

 

One area were retain continues to hang on is outlet malls as destinations.   One area they tend to thrive is near casinos.   There happens to be one next door, with a planned Phase 2 out back.....

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Exactly!.   This makes no sense to me.  They want to put a "technology center" in a perfect retail site, and build a suburban outlet mall in the parking lot of a GA airport.   Sometimes Cleveland planning makes me scratch my head.  

 

This isn't really "Cleveland planning".  These are the actions of private developers pursuing their own interests as they see them.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

If it's a perfect retail site then why is there no retail? There certainly wasn't any retail left even before they purposely stopped renewing leases.

 

I have no doubt that this tech center will include some retail. Just not to the extent it used to. 

The mall certainly had a functioning food court and convenience retail before the present owners seemed to stop renewing leases years ago. Until proven otherwise, a high priced tech hub in the very heart of the city deserves all the skepticism it can handle.

  • Like 1
  • Dislike 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, X said:

 

This isn't really "Cleveland planning".  These are the actions of private developers pursuing their own interests as they see them.

 

Understood-- I didn't mean this as "official City of Cleveland planning."    I meant it as a general blanket statement.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, but my point is that if there isn't the official "City of Cleveland Planning" doing the planning, there is no "Cleveland" planning going on.  Just actors in a market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

Exactly!.   This makes no sense to me.  They want to put a "technology center" in a perfect retail site, and build a suburban outlet mall in the parking lot of a GA airport.   Sometimes Cleveland planning makes me scratch my head.  

What is so perfect about it?  When - in context - there are STREETS with STORE FRONTS that are/were made specifically for retail.  

 

TC proved that without residents, an anchor and retail leading into it, it cannot survive.  Retail on the adjacent revitalized city streets and neighborhoods are a better match, than a self serving walled off garden.  I'm a huge TC retail fan, as shown in my previous historical trips down memory lane/posts [ 😜LOL @X  ]  I more than anyone here wants high end retail and destination retail [flagship stores], now that there are residents, and visitors/tourists, who can support everyday, specialty and clothing retail downtown. 

 

I want it, but not at the expense of the other neighborhoods that make up Downtown.  Having retail, east and west of TC, leading to its street level storefronts is a better for the overall health of downtown, than a mall that sucks most of the foot traffic off of city streets.

 

sit down nice try GIF

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

 

I know it's easy for you to take the simple-minded route and blame everything you don't agree with on the city, but you miss your mark more often than not. Maybe give it a rest because your schtick is getting old and stale around here.

 

Huh?  🤔

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was at the tribe game last night and couldn't help but realize there was a glass box being built ontop of one side of tower city. Any curiosity of what this may be?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's is Mayor Jackson's implementation of jersey barriers as a safety measure for pedestrian safety.  It has worked so well for Public Square. Just kidding

  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, newyorker said:

Better yet, I would not be supprised if the dinosaur mayor is reinstalling pay phones.  

 

Hey, when your pager's beeping 9-1-1 at you, you're gonna be glad there's a pay phone nearby!

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, mrclifton88 said:

What are they doing in front of Tower City?

 

IMG_2841.jpeg

 

Clearly some underground work, I wonder if it has something to do with communications or other utilities for the apartments, or the Tech Center being developed in the mall?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Hello cranes in the sky 🏗

3C76A57D-B2C2-446D-8CFD-1F351D9E5E26.png

 

Huh? For what??


"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it has something to do with the Terminal Tower residences.  My guess is to raise HVAC equipment but not 100% certain.  I doubt it’ll be there for more than a day or two but they’re always fun to look at.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW @marty15 may not be crazy after all about Google *possibly* being a part of Cityblock. Moreno has gone after them and other Fortune 100 technology firms and, from what I hear, they are listening. But apparently they haven't signed...yet.

  • Like 9

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, KJP said:

BTW @marty15 may not be crazy after all about Google *possibly* being a part of Cityblock. Moreno has gone after them and other Fortune 100 technology firms and, from what I hear, they are listening. But apparently they haven't signed...yet.

 

I was intrigued to see that Google's head of cloud is the keynote speaker at the upcoming Solutions Conference.  Perhaps there is something to this...

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The original conjecture was that Google was an investor.

 

“Google is directly providing money for construction/planning of this. I don’t have an exact dollar amount.”

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, RE Developer In Training said:

 

I was intrigued to see that Google's head of cloud is the keynote speaker at the upcoming Solutions Conference.  Perhaps there is something to this...

 

Perhaps an announcement will be made Dec. 9?

  • Like 1

"Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you respond." -- Coach Lou Holtz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This topic is being closely monitored by admins and mods and it will be locked if rules are not being followed!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...