Cleveland: Downtown: Tower City / Riverview Development

[KJP]

5 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said:

Not nice. At all! Just a hint, maybe ...?

 

I won't force you to wait a week. I'll have something before then.

[MyTwoSense]

4 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

I won't force you to wait a week. I'll have something before then.

Is this the date of your colonoscopy screening?  Don't be a tease man!

[KJP]

3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Is this the date of your colonoscopy screening?  Don't be a tease man!

 

Never mind. Guess my joke wasn't funny.

 

Just know that I'll have an article by the end of this week.

Edited June 24, 2019 by KJP

[fishface]

Its not a tease, there is a Blockland Community Update on July 1 for anyone who wants to attend.  https://www.facebook.com/events/362677884599201/

Edited June 25, 2019 by fishface

[GISguy]

I havent been to TC in a few weeks, it's nice to see improved wayfinding in the station level (not sure how long this' been up?, maybe I never paid attention...)

 

Sidenote, it was also nice to see the flats decked out in signage/wayfinding for the C50 events this weekend, I remember how confusing it was down there when I first moved in!

Edited June 25, 2019 by GISguy

[Boomerang_Brian]

18 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

I have very serious doubts about this whole block chain thing.  If it is a bust or a scam, we will have lost a lot of retail a dying mall for nothing.

 

FTFY

[tj111]

1 hour ago, Terdolph said:

I have very serious doubts about this whole block chain thing.  If it is a bust or a scam, we will have lost a lot of retail for nothing.

Not to get too far off topic, but blockchain is just a technology concept. It's good to be skeptical of any specific implementation of a technology being a boom or bust, but the underlying tech is just computer science.

[urbanmyth]

So many places are banking on being the hub of blockchain. Malta, the island nation, and Cleveland, are just two examples of this;

 

 

[KJP]

12 hours ago, fishface said:

Its not a tease, there is a Blockland Community Update on July 1 for anyone who wants to attend.  https://www.facebook.com/events/362677884599201/

 

Yep, it's a tease. 

 

And the Cityblock project isn't just about blockchain. I hope that the approach being taken here will be appreciated shortly. And I would hope it's a risk. All growth is based on risk.

[dave2017]

With the demise of shopping at The Avenue at Tower City Center, I look forward to seeing the space reinvented once again. Forest City took a chance back in the 90's to reinvent the space. It succeeded for a moment and I hope the new concept can succeed.  I would be happy to see retail return to the storefronts to Euclid Ave.  I always felt The Galleria at Erieview and Tower City helped to eliminate the need for retail locations along Euclid Ave. 

[MyTwoSense]

20 hours ago, dave2017 said:

With the demise of shopping at The Avenue at Tower City Center, I look forward to seeing the space reinvented once again. Forest City took a chance back in the 90's to reinvent the space. It succeeded for a moment and I hope the new concept can succeed.  I would be happy to see retail return to the storefronts to Euclid Ave.  I always felt The Galleria at Erieview and Tower City helped to eliminate the need for retail locations along Euclid Ave. 

I disagree as someone who spent a lot of money in both malls and was personal friends with many store managers, Tower City sucked the life out of Erieview and Euclid Ave shopping.

[MuRrAy HiLL]

Is there a separate "Terminal Tower residence" thread??  If so, please relocate.

 

First Look: Inside the new Terminal Tower Residences

By Jordyn Grzelewski, The Plain Dealer | Posted June 28, 2019 at 05:00 AM | Updated June 28, 2019 at 06:05 AM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — In the 89-year history of downtown Cleveland’s iconic Terminal Tower, the only people to ever call it home were the Van Sweringen brothers, the railroad barons who built the tower.

 

That is about to change. In September, tenants will begin moving in to some 297 apartments that are now being converted from office space inside the 52-story building, which has the distinction of being downtown Cleveland’s second-tallest building and perhaps its most recognizable landmark.

 

K&D Group, which purchased Terminal Tower from Forest City Realty Trust in 2016, is converting 10 floors into residential living. The cost of the project is about $100 million, including the $38.5 million deal K&D struck to purchase the tower and a parking garage beneath it.

 

https://expo.cleveland.com/news/g66l-2019/06/7ae9a128835685/first-look-inside-the-new-terminal-tower-residences.html

Edited June 28, 2019 by MuRrAy HiLL

[KJP]

 

FRIDAY, JUNE 28, 2019

City Block at Tower City, announcement Monday; sneak peak

 

On Monday, July 1, BlockLand Cleveland will announce that The Avenue at Tower City Center is the group's chosen site for its technology hub called City Block. The hub, as proposed, would be the world's largest technology incubator under one roof.

 

Bernie Moreno, founder and leader of BlockLand Cleveland, a volunteer effort, confirmed last week in a personal message via Twitter that the project would be announced at 4 p.m. Monday at the group's next regular meeting. The meeting will be held on the second floor of the former Plain Dealer building, 1801 Superior Ave.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/06/city-block-at-tower-city-announcement.html

[mrclifton88]

I am very excited to learn more... moving retail out from the inside to Prospect is a great move. Prospect is a great urban street with not much going on as it is now... this should change that. I wonder what will happen to the area around the Terminal Tower entrance as well as Brooks Brothers. Hope to learn more Monday!

Edited June 28, 2019 by mrclifton88

[KJP]

3 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said:

I am very excited to learn more... moving retail out from the inside to Prospect is a great move. Prospect is a great urban street with not much going on as it is now... this should change that. I wonder what will happen to the area around the Terminal Tower entrance as well as Brooks Brothers. Hope to learn more Monday!

 

I'm told they want to keep Brooks Brothers. They've been an amazing tenant for many, many years at Tower City.

[ryanfrazier]

I hope its successful, and its mostly or entirely private money, so I'm in no position to tell them what to do, but I have a couple points of skepticism.

1. It seems like more space than this operation would need.  KJP's article notes that the empty retail space in Tower City will be 3 times bigger than Paris's Station F incubator.  I don't see how they fill up all that space.

2. Recent changes that seem to have pushed out retail and eating options in Tower City make the incubator space less attractive.  I would think that workers in the incubator would like to have those dining and retail options under the same roof. 

3. I'm no tech expert, but isn't part of the value of blockchain that its distributed?  And therefore you can have people using it and working on it spread throughout the world?  So you don't need people centralized like you would if you were manufacturing something physical.  It just seems like a technology that is especially non-conducive to agglomeration effects.

That being said, I hope it works!

[marty15]

@KJP  great stuff! Excited for the details! I know my source is rock solid. Monday should be fun

[MyTwoSense]

2 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

I hope its successful, and its mostly or entirely private money, so I'm in no position to tell them what to do, but I have a couple points of skepticism.

1. It seems like more space than this operation would need.  KJP's article notes that the empty retail space in Tower City will be 3 times bigger than Paris's Station F incubator.  I don't see how they fill up all that space.

2. Recent changes that seem to have pushed out retail and eating options in Tower City make the incubator space less attractive.  I would think that workers in the incubator would like to have those dining and retail options under the same roof. 

3. I'm no tech expert, but isn't part of the value of blockchain that its distributed?  And therefore you can have people using it and working on it spread throughout the world?  So you don't need people centralized like you would if you were manufacturing something physical.  It just seems like a technology that is especially non-conducive to agglomeration effects.

That being said, I hope it works!

Perhaps they will be addressing these things in the official announcement. 

[bumsquare]

6 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

I hope its successful, and its mostly or entirely private money, so I'm in no position to tell them what to do, but I have a couple points of skepticism.

1. It seems like more space than this operation would need.  KJP's article notes that the empty retail space in Tower City will be 3 times bigger than Paris's Station F incubator.  I don't see how they fill up all that space.

2. Recent changes that seem to have pushed out retail and eating options in Tower City make the incubator space less attractive.  I would think that workers in the incubator would like to have those dining and retail options under the same roof. 

3. I'm no tech expert, but isn't part of the value of blockchain that its distributed?  And therefore you can have people using it and working on it spread throughout the world?  So you don't need people centralized like you would if you were manufacturing something physical.  It just seems like a technology that is especially non-conducive to agglomeration effects.

That being said, I hope it works!

I could be wrong but the private money @KJP is talking about is for investment not the physical redevelopment of Tower City

[lockdog]

not sure if 1 and 2 need to be answered....    3. people in tech hubs, software development, etc. are brought together for collaboration....   forums and wiki's are ok....  but do not take the place of face to face problem solving...  following your argument, apple, google, Microsoft, etc. do not need HQs....   although one day with distributed autonomous organizations it could happen....   

Edited June 28, 2019 by lockdog

[KJP]

What's interesting is that the 300,000+ square feet involved with this site wasn't simply "Well that's what Tower City has so we'll take it..." BlockLand Cleveland came into this search looking for a site with 300,000 square feet. So they had big space needs going into the search. The Avenue at Tower City offers more than that (366,000 sf), but some of that is open floor space in the concourses as well as in upstairs spaces that will remain retail. And 66,000 +/- sf of retail is a sizable chunk to retain.

 

EDIT: here's how Station F works and probably how City Block might work.... Google has welcomed a group of aspiring tech startups to its section of City Block. An entrepreneur in a startup biz sits on a beanbag chair in their space at City Block and gets a brilliant idea. She gets up, walks over to another space in City Block where XYZ Capital is located. She talks to a venture capitalist staffer there who listens to her idea and says her idea isn't for them. She heads back to her startup's space and throws around pillows at her co-workers in the blow-off steam corner of their incubator space. With her mind back at ease, she strolls over to ZYX Ignite in another space in City Block and meets with another venture capitalist staffer who says she's got something interesting but he needs her to develop a couple of presentations to address some tech shortcomings in her idea. The venture capitalist staffer says her tech shortcomings happen to be the expertise of two other startup businesses downstairs in the Microsoft section of City Block. So she pitches her idea to them and they tell her that her tech shortcoming can be overcome. They can partner with her on it and all three of the startup business book some time in an upstairs conference room to map out their project. Then they take it back to the second venture capitalist to design the pitch to Google and to Microsoft reps in the mezzanine offices to see who offers them the best deal. Or something like that....

Edited June 28, 2019 by KJP

[osu4brutus03]

So no retail at all will be inside TowerCity Center?

Edited June 28, 2019 by osu4brutus03

[KJP]

23 minutes ago, osu4brutus03 said:

So no retail at all will be inside TowerCity Center?

 

Just speculating, but possibly just Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, A Dollar, etc between the RTA rail station and Public Square. There may be a restaurant or two but it sounds like most of the retail will be along Prospect. I don't expect we'll get a lot of detail on Monday but I do hope the vision will be clarified further at that time. More detailed information will probably start to come out after Vocon does its work and leasing shakes out in the coming months.

[marty15]

There should be some good details Monday. Vocon has been at this pretty hard for awhile now.

[Sapper Daddy]

41 minutes ago, osu4brutus03 said:

So no retail at all will be inside TowerCity Center?

As one guy having a beer talking to another (don’t know if you’ve had beer.. I had a couple.  Great Lakes Moscow Mule Ale I give a 5 out of 10.  It’s good but they’ve done better)... do we really want a heavy retail presence at Tower City?  If it lines the street front sure, but as a west sider I’ve learned a lot by watching the Great Northern model vs the Westgate model.

[marty15]

This, combined with NuCLEus, and the May Company redevelopment, is gonna mesh really well. You’re gonna have a lively presence from the moment you turn onto Prospect, going east til you get to E. 9th. 

[Clevecane]

Two thoughts:

 

1. Visa has Innovation Centers that perform the same function as these tech incubators across the globe, just announced a massive blockchain initiative, and already has a footprint here in Cardinal Commerce. If anyone at BlockLand or Rock is reading this... just sayin’

 

2. If any of these blockchain technologies are going to require the mining energy footprint required by bitcoin, I wonder if some of the 300,000 sf will be data centers and chillers? We’ll need some giant offshore wind project to power the place if we want to keep our energy footprint down, anyone know where to find one?  

[KJP]

Good questions. I see that Visa's Mentor-based Cardinal Commerce is supportive of this effort, as it sponsored the inaugural Blockland Solutions Conference last December. It will be interesting to see how far that support will go....

 

 https://news.hyland.com/hyland-and-keybank-sign-on-as-presenting-sponsors-of-blockland-solutions-conference-in-cleveland/

 

 

[lockdog]

just some basic (and simple)  information on how blockchain (distributed ledger technology) could change the economy...   "Tokenization is the process of converting an asset into a token stored on a blockchain. Simply put: It consists of converting the value of an object into a token."    this allows you to fractionalize the property...  e.g. if you tokenize a building you can break it up into smaller pieces so almost anyone can afford to own a part of the building...  this works from a house to a new york skyscraper...   now, assets that were not liquid become easy to buy and sale, such as art....

 

I would say that tokenization of real estate should be of interest to anyone on the UO projects and construction boards...

 

https://medium.com/altcoin-magazine/how-tokenization-will-change-our-economy-a5ccfa61c28c

 https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelwolfson/2018/10/03/a-first-for-manhattan-30m-real-estate-property-tokenized-with-blockchain/#5437d90f4895

Edited June 29, 2019 by lockdog

[Cleburger]

On 6/28/2019 at 7:03 PM, Sapper Daddy said:

 do we really want a heavy retail presence at Tower City?  If it lines the street front sure, but as a west sider I’ve learned a lot by watching the Great Northern model vs the Westgate model.

 

I'm probably outnumbered and outspoken, but I do!    Perfect place for an outlet mall.   Tech hubs and casino patrons have nothing in common.  But outlet shopping fits the bill, and provides much needed retail for downtown residents. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Cleburger

[marty15]

FYI 

[MyTwoSense]

9 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

I'm probably outnumbered and outspoken, but I do!    Perfect place for an outlet mall.   Tech hubs and casino patrons have nothing in common.  But outlet shopping fits till bill, and provides much needed retail for downtown residents. 

We all have discussed that Tower City has sucked retail street life off the actual city streets.  The retailers and the Mall mgmt. were both negligent and had issues.  Examples were Gucci, LV and Joan & David.  I don't believe and outlet mall retailers, even the department store off shots like Saks off Fifth, with their lower overhead cost, can afford to be located in Tower City.

 

There are plenty of store fronts on West 6 or 9th.  I think a better space for outlet retailers would be the Euclid or Colonial arcades, with a mix of local retailers.

[marty15]

It’s a dead issue either way. Maybe in its next makeover in another 20 years they can try that. But I agree. How can you offer discount merchandise with top rents?

[inlovewithCLE]

1 hour ago, MyTwoSense said:

We all have discussed that Tower City has sucked retail street life off the actual city streets.  The retailers and the Mall mgmt. were both negligent and had issues.  Examples were Gucci, LV and Joan & David.  I don't believe and outlet mall retailers, even the department store off shots like Saks off Fifth, with their lower overhead cost, can afford to be located in Tower City.

 

There are plenty of store fronts on West 6 or 9th.  I think a better space for outlet retailers would be the Euclid or Colonial arcades, with a mix of local retailers.

The Arcades are too small for modern retail space requirements in most cases. Outlet mall would never work there. (Which is one of the reasons I support the lakefront outlet mall *ducks*)

[marty15]

Side note. 20 years ago there was a marked difference in prices from outlets to regular stores. I really don’t notice much difference in price nowadays. 

[MyTwoSense]

3 hours ago, marty15 said:

Side note. 20 years ago there was a marked difference in prices from outlets to regular stores. I really don’t notice much difference in price nowadays. 

 

We're way off topic considering outlets aren't going into TC, but there is a bit difference in not just price, but quality and quantity of product. 

[Cleburger]

13 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

We all have discussed that Tower City has sucked retail street life off the actual city streets.  The retailers and the Mall mgmt. were both negligent and had issues.  Examples were Gucci, LV and Joan & David.  I don't believe and outlet mall retailers, even the department store off shots like Saks off Fifth, with their lower overhead cost, can afford to be located in Tower City.

 

There are plenty of store fronts on West 6 or 9th.  I think a better space for outlet retailers would be the Euclid or Colonial arcades, with a mix of local retailers.

 

Sadly though, most (though not all) casino patrons are the types that go strolling over to the warehouse district in search of retail.     

[MyPhoneDead]

On 6/28/2019 at 6:49 PM, KJP said:

 

Just speculating, but possibly just Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, A Dollar, etc between the RTA rail station and Public Square. There may be a restaurant or two but it sounds like most of the retail will be along Prospect. I don't expect we'll get a lot of detail on Monday but I do hope the vision will be clarified further at that time. More detailed information will probably start to come out after Vocon does its work and leasing shakes out in the coming months.

So first, great to hear there will be SOME retail presence at Tower city. I believe making Prospect avenue the target was a brilliant idea, those storefronts have always been underutilized (I've never seen them occupied, if they have idk by who) as well as the street itself. 

 

Second, in the story you said upstairs (Public Square level) would maintain retail inside of Tower City, but you named stores that are downstairs, would they possibly shift them? Also (I know it's speculation) but do you think T-Mobile stays as it's a technology company that recently remodeled their space. 

 

THIRD the store fronts located by the Ritz Carlton on Prospect, they don't look very large at all, what could possibly go there? My only though would be they knock walls down and make it two moderately sized storefronts like an AT&T and or Microsoft Store. The former Hard Rock Cafe space, although it's on Huron would make a great retail space as well. Across the street where the old Houlihans was located would make the PERFECT Apple Store and would be very popular due to it's transit access, accessibility from inside the mall and overall Downtown population. I'm overall excited again for this project!

[MyPhoneDead]

One thing I will give the people behind this project is they are VERY ambitious. This type of project is definitely as risk and creating it in such a large space as Tower City to start is very gutsy but commendable. If you are going to do an ambitious project like this though you go hard or go home and they are definitely going hard. One thing I wish Cleveland did more often was I wish they "went for it all" with more of their projects, I wish their projects were things that got people outside of this board talking but they end up more conservative (The PHS Chandelier). The moniker of "world's largest __________" definitely is a headline grabber and will definitely catch peoples attention and draw interest. Combined with the type of space this project offers and its location as well as transit access it should be a home run. 

[MyTwoSense]

10 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

So first, great to hear there will be SOME retail presence at Tower city. I believe making Prospect avenue the target was a brilliant idea, those storefronts have always been underutilized (I've never seen them occupied, if they have idk by who) as well as the street itself. 

 

Second, in the story you said upstairs (Public Square level) would maintain retail inside of Tower City, but you named stores that are downstairs, would they possibly shift them? Also (I know it's speculation) but do you think T-Mobile stays as it's a technology company that recently remodeled their space. 

 

THIRD the store fronts located by the Ritz Carlton on Prospect, they don't look very large at all, what could possibly go there? My only though would be they knock walls down and make it two moderately sized storefronts like an AT&T and or Microsoft Store. The former Hard Rock Cafe space, although it's on Huron would make a great retail space as well. Across the street where the old Houlihans was located would make the PERFECT Apple Store and would be very popular due to it's transit access, accessibility from inside the mall and overall Downtown population. I'm overall excited again for this project!

Do you remember when store fronts were in many of these building.  The last picture, with the UPS truck, that area housed my favorite store, Barney's.  There is a great deal off street frontage that can be retail on Prospect, Huron, W 2/3 street.

 

In the future, this would enable connected and continued retail going west on West 6 and East on Prospect.  This would deepen and enrich the connections that are currently in place making downtown more attractive to workers/employee, residents and visitors/tourist.

[MyPhoneDead]

1 minute ago, MyTwoSense said:

Do you remember when store fronts were in many of these building.  The last picture, with the UPS truck, that area housed my favorite store, Barney's.  There is a great deal off street frontage that can be retail on Prospect, Huron, W 2/3 street.

 

In the future, this would enable connected and continued retail going west on West 6 and East on Prospect.  This would deepen and enrich the connections that are currently in place making downtown more attractive to workers/employee, residents and visitors/tourist.

I don't I only remember Tower City interior as the retail area. What stores were in the storefronts of the second picture? I agree about the connection and that is why I love the choice to move stores to Prospect, it definitely bridges a gap from the WHD and East 4th Street. Combine that with the rumored streetscape re-do of this area of Prospect and we have a winner. I know there are multiple empty storefronts lining the complex but since Prospect was only mentioned in KJP's story (for now at least) I wasn't to sure about the chances of those getting filled. 

[MyTwoSense]

4 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

One thing I will give the people behind this project is they are VERY ambitious. This type of project is definitely as risk and creating it in such a large space as Tower City to start is very gutsy but commendable. If you are going to do an ambitious project like this though you go hard or go home and they are definitely going hard. One thing I wish Cleveland did more often was I wish they "went for it all" with more of their projects, I wish their projects were things that got people outside of this board talking but they end up more conservative (The PHS Chandelier). The moniker of "world's largest __________" definitely is a headline grabber and will definitely catch peoples attention and draw interest. Combined with the type of space this project offers and its location as well as transit access it should be a home run. 

Cleveland was built on ingenuity.  Actually, due to economic forces and forces beyond our control, we've had to take a more conservative approach in development compared to other cities.  I would rather the measured and conservative approach than have empty towers such as in cities like Miami, Atlanta, Dallas,Phoenix, etc.

[KJP]

26 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

So first, great to hear there will be SOME retail presence at Tower city. I believe making Prospect avenue the target was a brilliant idea, those storefronts have always been underutilized (I've never seen them occupied, if they have idk by who) as well as the street itself. 

 

Second, in the story you said upstairs (Public Square level) would maintain retail inside of Tower City, but you named stores that are downstairs, would they possibly shift them? Also (I know it's speculation) but do you think T-Mobile stays as it's a technology company that recently remodeled their space. 

 

 

I was only speculating as to what retailers would located between the rapid station and Public Square portico to capitalize off the pedestrian traffic. I suspect that a couple of other retailers will remain at Tower City but where they will locate and what they will be,  I have no idea.

[MyTwoSense]

5 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I don't I only remember Tower City interior as the retail area. What stores were in the storefronts of the second picture? I agree about the connection and that is why I love the choice to move stores to Prospect, it definitely bridges a gap from the WHD and East 4th Street. Combine that with the rumored streetscape re-do of this area of Prospect and we have a winner. I know there are multiple empty storefronts lining the complex but since Prospect was only mentioned in KJP's story (for now at least) I wasn't to sure about the chances of those getting filled. 

If you dont mind me asking, how old are you?  When TC was remodeled, there were stores that internal and external entries.  You could enter Joan and David on Prospect or Internally.  You could enter Higbee's from a number of points.  You could enter Barney's or Banana Republic from external locations.  

[MyPhoneDead]

1 minute ago, MyTwoSense said:

If you dont mind me asking, how old are you?  When TC was remodeled, there were stores that internal and external entries.  You could enter Joan and David on Prospect or Internally.  You could enter Higbee's from a number of points.  You could enter Barney's or Banana Republic from external locations.  

26, my memories of Tower City start post 2001 so after Dillards, I didn't know it was even called the Avenue until I worked there in 2011.

[MyTwoSense]

1 minute ago, MyPhoneDead said:

26, my memories of Tower City start post 2001 so after Dillards, I didn't know it was even called the Avenue until I worked there in 2011.

You're like my older Nephew and Niece.  They don't remember Tower City pre 2000.  They only remember Higbee's being 5 floors and whenever they see "A Christmas story" they are amazed at what a vibrant store Higbee's once was.

 

They  remember Warner Bros Studio Store, Gymboree, the GAP and a few other stores.

[bumsquare]

Brought to you by the same fellow who wanted to build an office/condo building based on a Ferrari dealership. What could go wrong?

 

https://www.cleveland.com/naymik/2014/07/ferrari_showroom_and_office_to.html#incart_river_default

[lockdog]

yeah....  sounds a little to much like that wide web thing....   

[dave2017]

 

 

 

I trip down memory lane.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MyPhoneDead]

9 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

You're like my older Nephew and Niece.  They don't remember Tower City pre 2000.  They only remember Higbee's being 5 floors and whenever they see "A Christmas story" they are amazed at what a vibrant store Higbee's once was.

 

They  remember Warner Bros Studio Store, Gymboree, the GAP and a few other stores.

That's EXACTLY what I remember I think that era of Tower City could do pretty decent in today's downtown climate.