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"Occupy Wall Street" Movement

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why is that so stupid of these mayors to collaborate and communicate on how to deal with the protests?  why should it be a secret?  I think working together, to respond in a uniform manner, city to city, is the wise move, and if sharing lessons from one city to the next on how to avoid PR disasters helps, so be it.

Maybe because of The First Amendment to the United States Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." 

 

And maybe because: "Originally, the First Amendment applied only to laws enacted by the Congress.  However, starting with Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652 (1925), the Supreme Court has held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies the First Amendment to each state, including any local government."

 

The when and the where of free speech have always been regulated.  As long as the rules are content neutral, it's been held to be Constitutional.  Otherwise, abortion clinic protestors, among others, would have free reign.

 

The mayors communicating is much ado about nothing.  Of course they'd talk about what has and hasn't worked in their communities.

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Not only do the regulations have to be content neutral, but I would think they also have to be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling governmental interest (i.e. strict scrutiny)

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Not only do the regulations have to be content neutral, but I would think they also have to be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling governmental interest (i.e. strict scrutiny)

 

Public health or public order might fly here.  Or the access of the general public to public spaces.

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If "public order" didn't fly for Tea Party activists bringing guns to steps of government buildings, then it ain't gonna fly for a bunch of dissidents assembling unarmed in a park.  Do you really want to set a precendent that "public order" requires the dispersion of peacefully assembling crowds who are not squatting, but rather legitimately exercising their First Amendment rights?  Would you prefer they resort to their.... ummmmm...... "Second Amendment remedies"?

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If "public order" didn't fly for Tea Party activists bringing guns to steps of government buildings, then it ain't gonna fly for a bunch of dissidents assembling unarmed in a park.  Do you really want to set a precendent that "public order" requires the dispersion of peacefully assembling crowds who are not squatting, but rather legitimately exercising their First Amendment rights?  Would you prefer they resort to their.... ummmmm...... "Second Amendment remedies"?

 

They weren't squatting?  It sure looked like squatting to me.  Indeed, their attorneys tried to claim "squatters' rights".

 

Tea Party rallies, as far as I know, have always had permits.  If you are talking about the Montana group, the guns weren't loaded and they had prior permission to bring them.

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I was actually referring to the rallies in D.C. where the assault rifles were brought in proximity to the President.

 

If they don't have the permission of the Zuccoti park owners, than they are technically squatters.... even if not in the sense the word is commonly used.  If they do have permission, they are not.... although some angle of squatters rights may still apply to governmental attempts to evict them.

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There was a 1984 USSC case about camping on the Mall in DC, where the court found 7-2 that camping isnt free speech.  Government has the right to forbid camping in a public park.  The case involved the Community of Creative Non-Violence creating an camp to call attention to the homelessness. 

 

 

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In any case, here in Dayton there will be a GA tonight.  I might be there and provide a report.  Hopefully I wont get busted by the cops for assembling withiout a permit or something. 

 

 

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Anonymous millions for loose-with-the-facts attack ads? That's protected free speech.

Staying in a public space to protest inequality? Read 'em the Riot Act.

What did the Occupy protesters do wrong? They failed to BUY their free speech.

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In some ways this end-game in Dayton is inevetible.  Realistically, how long could you expect people to camp out like this?  So they make this one demand that will never be met and go out with a bang (or at least some media coverage).  It does tie up the lose end of this indefinite camping-out, by getting the camp busted. 

 

Not the approach I would have used, but there is this whole noble lost cause mentality, this certain quixoticsm with the left, and I see that as an undercurrent here. 

 

That's why I liked what Cleveland was doing, having this physical presence where you could get connected with their activities, touch base with them,  but without the issues re the camping.  And what I saw at Boston, using the physical presence of an Occupy camp to network and bring people into other ongoing activism things.  I guess this could be called co-option, but it seems more to-the-point and appeals the the pragmatic Midwesterner in me. ....in other words, why are you occupying?  what are you going to do,  besides (camping out)?  Yes I understand the propaganda of the deed symbolism here, but there has to be something beyond this, or it becoms pointless...

 

 

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This is a hot mess.

 

I love how everyone says the OWS folks are law abiding yet they are planning to Occupy the Subway System tomorrow.

 

Great way to help the people that depend on public transportation.

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For the most part, they are engaging in civil disobedience.... a tactic a few college students used at a Woolworth in Greensboro, NC a few decades back.  I'm not making any judgment on the worthiness of their "cause" and certainly won't be joining in any of their demonstartions (whatever form they take), but we have to be careful how we paint such activities.  Comparing them to vagrants or common criminals is far from the truth.

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They failed to BUY their free speech.

 

Tell me if I'm wrong, but the Constitution protects free speech, right to assemble, etc. No where does it protect the right to occupy land, whether private or public property. If you set up a tent, you are occupying land.

 

In my city, the abortion protestors show up regularly at an abortion clinic. The rule is it that they are not allowed to loiter, etc., so they pace up and down the sidewalk.

 

The constitution protects freedom of the press, but it does not provide the press! You have to have your own press.

 

Jeffrey - that's quite a bit of reporting you've done. Thanks for sharing.

 

 

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As of 4 PM there where three, then four, county sheriff cars at Dayton CHS, with the deputies on the square questiong the campers. Cars had flashers and a van was on-site, too.  Saw this on my way to catch my bus.

 

I'm off to the GA.  We'll see what goes down tonight.

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Not only do the regulations have to be content neutral, but I would think they also have to be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling governmental interest (i.e. strict scrutiny)

 

This isn't the way it works.  Laws that are not content-neutral have to be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling government interest (i.e., strict scrutiny), and strict scrutiny is almost always an insta-kill for any regulation of expression.  Content-neutral "time, place, and manner" restrictions do not have to meet strict scrutiny, which is why they're often enforceable.

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Well, it looks like the proposal to have the city & county do a one-year moratorium on foreclosures in exchange for temporarily vacating CHS for a Xmas Tree lighting has been blocked at the GA here in Dayton, at a very cold GA.  There were four or five blocks to this, showing that there is still some common sense within the local Occupy movement.

 

Yet I think they will still be evicted, since they dont have time to come up with a counter proposal.

 

 

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Not only do the regulations have to be content neutral, but I would think they also have to be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling governmental interest (i.e. strict scrutiny)

 

This isn't the way it works.  Laws that are not content-neutral have to be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling government interest (i.e., strict scrutiny), and strict scrutiny is almost always an insta-kill for any regulation of expression.  Content-neutral "time, place, and manner" restrictions do not have to meet strict scrutiny, which is why they're often enforceable.

 

You're right.  But it still has to be narrowly tailored to further an important government interest not related to the suppression of free speech.

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I generally like what Newt Gingrich said about the Wall Street protests in that graphic above.  His view is actually pretty reasonable considering the comments of some of the other Republican candidates.  The concerns of the OWS movement are real concerns that millions of regular middle-class Americans across the political spectrum have, even if some of the people participating in the actual protests are jokers and some of their methods are questionable.

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Back in Dayton...

 

...it looks like the Occupy Dayton protestors have come up with a reasonable compromise after I left.  I was chased away by the cold.  I heard this proposal and it was pretty resonable...very close to what the DDP offered, and fomalizes the status of being on the square....tho the headline is misleading:

 

Occupy Dayton wants electricity in exchange for cooperation

 

Member Ed Cobb of Dayton, who proposed the offer, suggested that the movement accept a greatly reduced presence on the square during the festival in exchange for having electricity restored that the movement would pay to use. Electricity was cut during the occupation.

 

During the festivities, the group would take down all but one tent, not display signs with sticks and deliver their message with handbills. Occupy would help clean up for the festival and assist in other ways, too. The county, he said, could issue a permit to Occupy for six months. Cobb said he’d like to take the proposal to the Commission on Friday.

 

 

 

 

 

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I'll be heading down to My Old Kentucky Home (my former home, not the historic site) and plan on visiting some Bluegrass Occupation.

 

Looks like even in old Kentucky the Occupy movement has taken root

 

Kentuckians bring Occupy message to commonwealth

 

LOUSIVILLE, Ky. — Small but dedicated bands of protestors have set up in cities around Kentucky to bring the Occupy Wall Street message to the Bluegrass state.

 

Many of the demonstrators have put up camps and are staying overnight like the activists who descended on Zuccotti Park in Lower Manhattan to call attention to income inequality and policies they say favor the wealthy over the poor.

 

Protestors have staked out spots in Louisville and Lexington as well as smaller cities like Ashland, Paducah, Owensboro and Bowling Green in recent weeks.

 

I'll be visiting Occupy Louisville and maybe Occupy Lexington during the Thanksgiving break.

 

 

 

 

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Labeling all the Tea Partiers as racist is no different than calling all the protesters anarchists.

Well to be fair the Majority of Tea Partiers are racist and/or believe that blacks are "dangerous"

See report: http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/tea-party-nationalism

 

I don't understand the Occupy people as it seems their antics get in the way of their supposed message.

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Labeling all the Tea Partiers as racist is no different than calling all the protesters anarchists.

Well to be fair the Majority of Tea Partiers are racist and/or believe that blacks are "dangerous"

See report: http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/tea-party-nationalism

 

Ummm, all it takes is a cursory review of this group's website to see that they're quite biased.

 

If Tea Partiers are "racist", explain the support for Herman Cain.

 

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Labeling all the Tea Partiers as racist is no different than calling all the protesters anarchists.

Well to be fair the Majority of Tea Partiers are racist and/or believe that blacks are "dangerous"

See report: http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/tea-party-nationalism

 

Ummm, all it takes is a cursory review of this group's website to see that they're quite biased.

 

If Tea Partiers are "racist", explain the support for Herman Cain.

 

 

Answer:  The tea party is making an attempt to fight fire with fire.

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All I know about the tea party crowd is what I saw on Courthouse Square in Dayton when they rallied there, and no, I don't think they are racist.  If they are its just this generic cultural stereotyping racism that we all share in to one degree or another, no hardcore racism. 

 

My impression is that they are basic low tax/small government conservatives, more like libertarians and anti-gun control types and maybe a tad like that old Militia movement from back in the early 1990s or even those backwoods survivalist types. ...more good old boy exurban and middle class suburban types. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Labeling all the Tea Partiers as racist is no different than calling all the protesters anarchists.

Well to be fair the Majority of Tea Partiers are racist and/or believe that blacks are "dangerous"

See report: http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/tea-party-nationalism

 

Ummm, all it takes is a cursory review of this group's website to see that they're quite biased.

 

If Tea Partiers are "racist", explain the support for Herman Cain.

 

 

That's not racist but maybe it's Tea Party schizophrenia, or senility:

 

Herman Cain: My Support For TARP Could Be A Problem

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/06/herman-cain-my-support-for-tarp-could-be-a-problem.php

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From Vaclav Havel via Sarah Schulman:

 

"Hope, in this deep and profound sense, is not the same thing as joy that things are going well, or willingness to invest in enterprises that are obviously headed for success, but rather, an ability to work for something because it is good."

 

 

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Labeling all the Tea Partiers as racist is no different than calling all the protesters anarchists.

Well to be fair the Majority of Tea Partiers are racist and/or believe that blacks are "dangerous"

See report: http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/tea-party-nationalism

 

Ummm, all it takes is a cursory review of this group's website to see that they're quite biased.

 

If Tea Partiers are "racist", explain the support for Herman Cain.

 

 

"All" tea partiers are certainly not racist.  But there certainly is a noticeable element and you are turning a blind eye if you can't see that.  Plus, expanding on something Jeffrey mentioned, racism in general today is not nearly as in your face as it was in the days of the Civil Rights movement and before.  "Political correctness run amuck" (did I say that right?) has caused racism to mostly retreat from the light of day. 

 

"Some" OWS people are lazy nutjobs who don't have a clue about the real world or a hard day's work but that certainly does not describe all of them, even if it does for a very noticeable portion which can be highlighted very easily if one so desires (cough, cough, Fox).  Both movements are fringe movements and both act as magnets and shelters for radicals.  But by saying that, it doesn't mean that all participants are radicals.  Far from it.  Even as a liberal-libertarian leaning individual, I agree with much of what TPP leaders say.  TPE and TPN, no so much.

 

Cain does draw a lot of support from the Tea Party, but still even with his undying willingness to bend and crow to their every demand, 30% of self-identified Tea Partiers do not have a favorable view of him (and that was from a poll conducted before all this controversy surrounded him).  There also is a current debate among intellectuals as to whether the denial of racism is racist itself.  There are plenty of people around the country who want to say that racism is dead (well.... all racism except reverse racism... then they have a cow), and Cain plays right into their hands by virtually endorsing that notion.  He says what they want to hear and acts as they want him to act (i.e. how they think he should act).  Remember, even the slave master had his favorites.

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All I know about the tea party crowd is what I saw on Courthouse Square in Dayton when they rallied there, and no, I don't think they are racist.  If they are its just this generic cultural stereotyping racism that we all share in to one degree or another, no hardcore racism. 

 

Cultural stereotyping, or more specifically claiming that a person who belongs to a certain race fits a certain stereotype, is most of what's left of actual racism.

 

The great majority of what some call "racism" is actually cultural bias.

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"All" tea partiers are certainly not racist.  But there certainly is a noticeable element and you are turning a blind eye if you can't see that.  Plus, expanding on something Jeffrey mentioned, racism in general today is not nearly as in your face as it was in the days of the Civil Rights movement and before.  "Political correctness run amuck" (did I say that right?) has caused racism to mostly retreat from the light of day. 

 

We don't have control of who calls themselves "Tea Party" anymore.  The name isn't trademarked.

 

Isn't it sort of racist to claim no black man can be conservative unless there's some kind of subservient attitude involved?

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^Out in the open, I would agree (at least racism directed at minorities).  But what people will say when comfortable that it won't come back to them is a whole different ballgame.  Just take a look at any unmoderated or lightly moderated comment forum..... like those following Yahoo! articles and sort by "most popular".... and, really, you can only do that for the sections that have not been disabled by the site due to the blatant hatred which is so often posted and "liked"

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^it makes me wonder about the kind of people who read those type of forums :wink:

 

The same kind that slow down for a really bad car accident, I suppose.  And judging from what I just read (before it was closed), the posters include a lot of people who are upset with the (lack of) aim and timing by a certain nutjob out of Idaho.

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I have to laugh a bit at how all the different media sources are portraying today's protests...    front page of Huffington Post shows young people cheering, shouting, holding signs, looking all the bit of a solid citizen movement...  "Hundreds Arrested as OWS celebrates 2 month anniversary"

 

front page of Foxnews shows protesters wrestling with police & the headline "Cops Injured During Occupy March"

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