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Cleveland: Downtown & Vicinity Residences Discussion

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On 8/23/2019 at 3:27 PM, Pugu said:

from Crain's:

 

"Looking to construct an apartment building? Cleveland is a pretty good place to do it, according to a report from the National Apartment Association. The association's "Barriers to Apartment Construction Index" report ranked 58 cities based on factors that make construction more difficult, limit the supply of housing and, as the organization sees its, affect affordability. Cleveland ranked No. 7 of the 58, making it one of the easiest cities in which to build apartments...."

 

Here's what the findings for Cleveland said: 

 

"The older Cleveland metro ranks better than most major markets on supply barriers with an overall index of 0.86, though overall apartment demand is the lowest of the larger national metros surveyed (Sioux Falls is lower). Respondents cite the expected land availability as most restrictive, mostly on heavy land use regulations, along with density restrictions driven by height and parking restrictions. Also cited as restrictive are land use regulations that burden the entitlement process and a generally lengthy approval timeline. Political complexity noted the heavy influence of local councils on the apartment development outcomes. Cleveland posts the lowest median rental incomes of major markets and these incomes are 14% below the requirement for average rents of $880. A significant 46% of metro rental stock is seen as more affordable STAR units found in older, distressed neighborhoods."

 

 

https://www.naahq.org/sites/default/files/naa-documents/naa_btac_index_summary_cleveland.pdf

https://www.naahq.org/news-publications/barriers-apartment-construction-index

https://www.crainscleveland.com/scott-suttell-blog/apartments-are-relatively-easy-build-cleveland-survey-finds

 

Clicking around that site, am I understanding it correct that they only project that the multi-family demand from 2017 - 2030 is only 4K units for Cleveland??  Cincinnati is calling for 11.9K and Columbus is at 27K.  Looking at larger faster growing cities, it's really elevated, Austin shows a demand for 98.1K and Atlanta is a whopping 144K  Just kind of interesting to see the various demands I suppose.  

Edited by Gnoraa
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15 minutes ago, Gnoraa said:

Clicking around that site, am I understanding it correct that they only project that the multi-family demand from 2017 - 2030 is only 4K units for Cleveland??  Cincinnati is calling for 11.9K and Columbus is at 27K.  Looking at larger faster growing cities, it's really elevated, Austin shows a demand for 98.1K and Atlanta is a whopping 144K  Just kinda of interesting to see the various demands I suppose.  

I recall 4k being the projected demand for downtown only. It was in a DCA quarterly report recently. 

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^Not sure who made that prediction and am surprised DCA created it or otherwise support it, but i think over the 13 years between 2017 and 2030 demand Downtown is Far greater than 4,000 units. what is that--about 6,000 people? Barring a major recession, I'd say Downtown demand is at least 10,000-15,000 units over the next 11 years.

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On 9/17/2019 at 2:39 PM, Gnoraa said:

Clicking around that site, am I understanding it correct that they only project that the multi-family demand from 2017 - 2030 is only 4K units for Cleveland??  Cincinnati is calling for 11.9K and Columbus is at 27K.  Looking at larger faster growing cities, it's really elevated, Austin shows a demand for 98.1K and Atlanta is a whopping 144K  Just kind of interesting to see the various demands I suppose.  

demand and reality are very different things.  ATL is a ghost town in downtown and midtown.  those people do not want to give up their cars.  it's urban sprawl.

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On 9/17/2019 at 9:27 AM, mack34 said:

I moved downtown in February, and its as great as I hoped it would be.  Come join us!!!

 

That's great to hear.  What led you to move downtown?

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I've always wanted to live downtown since i was at Cleveland state 30 years ago.  But life got in the way.  I never liked suburban life...and I love that I can walk everywhere, don't have to worry about traffic jams leaving events or Uber surge pricing.  It really is remarkably convient and fun.   

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2 hours ago, mack34 said:

I've always wanted to live downtown since i was at Cleveland state 30 years ago.  But life got in the way.  I never liked suburban life...and I love that I can walk everywhere, don't have to worry about traffic jams leaving events or Uber surge pricing.  It really is remarkably convient and fun.   

 

I’ve lived downtown for 13 years now. I love it & will never live anywhere else but downtown. Nothing beats walking to work every day.

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Just now, simplythis said:

 

Yeah...I got left behind after living downtown for stints in 2008-2009 and 2010-2012.  For a two bedroom to support what had then become my family, it was just not possible at my income level at the time, unless I didn't care about saving any money for the future.  I'm not sure why people are bitter though.  You can't always get what you want?  I ended up buying a house within walking distance of a rapid station.  Monthly mortgage,  property tax, utilities, etc is lower than a 1 BR downtown.  Maybe when we strike it big we can move back.

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How many people want to live in Manhattan but can’t?  I don’t think this is really the symptom of a problem. It’s naturally what happens when a city center changes for the better. 

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7 hours ago, sizzlinbeef said:

 

Yeah...I got left behind after living downtown for stints in 2008-2009 and 2010-2012.  For a two bedroom to support what had then become my family, it was just not possible at my income level at the time, unless I didn't care about saving any money for the future.  I'm not sure why people are bitter though.  You can't always get what you want?  I ended up buying a house within walking distance of a rapid station.  Monthly mortgage,  property tax, utilities, etc is lower than a 1 BR downtown.  Maybe when we strike it big we can move back.

 

The same exact thing happened for me about a year and a half ago. I loved living downtown and would love to still be there, but it got way too expensive. So I did the next best thing and bought a condo steps away from a rapid station. Even with a mortgage and HOA fees, I pay less than I did in rent, and am still a cheap, easy, quick ride away (when the trains are running) from everything I loved. Just because I can't afford to be in the middle of it all, doesn't mean I can't still enjoy everything downtown has to offer. Nothing to be bitter about. Another reason to expand our transit though - so more people can have easy access to enjoy and share in downtown's success. 

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12 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

 

The same exact thing happened for me about a year and a half ago. I loved living downtown and would love to still be there, but it got way too expensive. So I did the next best thing and bought a condo steps away from a rapid station. Even with a mortgage and HOA fees, I pay less than I did in rent, and am still a cheap, easy, quick ride away (when the trains are running) from everything I loved. Just because I can't afford to be in the middle of it all, doesn't mean I can't still enjoy everything downtown has to offer. Nothing to be bitter about. Another reason to expand our transit though - so more people can have easy access to enjoy and share in downtown's success. 

Moving back to Cleveland next month and purchased a home near a rapid station for the same reason........ but are there issues with the train rapid service? I will be commuting downtown for work daily.

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18 minutes ago, ytown2ctown said:

Moving back to Cleveland next month and purchased a home near a rapid station for the same reason........ but are there issues with the train rapid service? I will be commuting downtown for work daily.

 

Welcome back to Cleveland!

 

Weekdays are OK. When they do repairs and shut down sections of the line, they're usually on the weekends -- unless it's a really big job like the west side repairs this past summer and the summer before.

 

We usually discuss RTA projects here:

 

But sometimes we discuss major rail construction projects here:

 

 


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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On 10/30/2019 at 8:32 PM, PoshSteve said:

 

The same exact thing happened for me about a year and a half ago. I loved living downtown and would love to still be there, but it got way too expensive. So I did the next best thing and bought a condo steps away from a rapid station. Even with a mortgage and HOA fees, I pay less than I did in rent, and am still a cheap, easy, quick ride away (when the trains are running) from everything I loved. Just because I can't afford to be in the middle of it all, doesn't mean I can't still enjoy everything downtown has to offer. Nothing to be bitter about. Another reason to expand our transit though - so more people can have easy access to enjoy and share in downtown's success. 

What is your definition of "expensive" as that is something unique to each person.  In cities outside of NYC, SanFran, Miami (city), CHI, Boston, purchasing a home is still cheaper than rent.

 

What nabe did you purchase?  It could be the next "it" hood.  now that Downtown is showing the sparks of going vertical, residential development, will fan out.  We see what has happened in Ohio City and D-S and that their being reconnected residentially and commercially along Detroit.  With development spiking south along major thoroughfares, now Lorain is ripe for development going West. 

 

Same on the East.  CSU is sort of a visual barrier, but I suspect development between CSU and the innerBelt will be next to develop.  Lakeside, St. Clair, Payne, Superior Prspect & Carneige are ripe for development.  I've often wondered by there are NO highrises along Carneigie between Ontario and CSU.  Bases could be retail, who would complain about trucks, pools, amenity decks etc, that face south. There would be unobstructed city views north a huge selling factor.  As I said in another thread those working, living and visiting areas just east of the InnerBelt, should start to upgrade or look to sell.

 

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@MyTwoSense I was paying 770/month for a 590sft one bedroom. All of the rental units in the building were going to be sold off as condos, with my unit going for $130k, which would have been too much (when adding in HOA fees) for a single, mid-level government worker with student loans to get financing. I could have continued to rent somewhere else downtown, but we all know anything as cheap as what I had been paying is non-existent. While I could have paid more per month, I decided I didn't want to throw away that much money a month to landlords. I bought a condo in Shaker (after being outbid on a couple places in the Gold Coast). I'm right along Van Aken and the Blue Line near Lee. While I don't see it becoming a new "it" neighborhood, it's stable, and I'm able to walk to things like Heinen's, coffee, dry cleaners, library. Being on the Blue Line was the big selling point for me though.

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31 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

@MyTwoSense I was paying 770/month for a 590sft one bedroom. All of the rental units in the building were going to be sold off as condos, with my unit going for $130k, which would have been too much (when adding in HOA fees) for a single, mid-level government worker with student loans to get financing. I could have continued to rent somewhere else downtown, but we all know anything as cheap as what I had been paying is non-existent. While I could have paid more per month, I decided I didn't want to throw away that much money a month to landlords. I bought a condo in Shaker (after being outbid on a couple places in the Gold Coast). I'm right along Van Aken and the Blue Line near Lee. While I don't see it becoming a new "it" neighborhood, it's stable, and I'm able to walk to things like Heinen's, coffee, dry cleaners, library. Being on the Blue Line was the big selling point for me though.

 590 sft?   WHAT?!

 

Well I grew up in Shaker So that area is stable and you will make a ROI.  That area is filled with solid middle class/upper middle class SFH, Two Family homes, condos and apartments.  Also there are a lot of people who want to stay in the heights that downsize to condos along Van Aken.  It's a good solid neighborhood with good transit.  Who never know I may see you at Mr. Hero.  lol  

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So it's at 93 percent and rents are also rising? Cleveland's downtown/urban core market is nowhere near close to saturation....

 

 


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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14 minutes ago, KJP said:

So it's at 93 percent and rents are also rising? Cleveland's downtown/urban core market is nowhere near close to saturation....

 

 

 

Great news! I'd still like to see a bit more equity downtown, though

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Going to see some worker housing i.e. micro units at the Centennial and add at least one other building project that's still in the embryonic stages.


"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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27 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Wasn't it at 95% a few years ago? Is 96% really something to be excited about? It makes me fear people are just headed to Lakewood or Cleveland Heights over Downtown Cleveland

There are more units. Many of them hit the market within the last few months.  It takes time to lease up.  93% is impressive gien how many new units there are. 

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Sadly, victims of local media don't know how many units or square feet of new construction have been added to the downtown market. I'm trying to do my best to provide the necessary context.....

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/02/ten-million-square-feet-of-downtown.html

Edited by KJP
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"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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"Most of us have been conditioned to regard military combat as exciting and glamorous -- an opportunity for men to prove their competence and courage. Since armies are legal, we feel that war is acceptable; in general, nobody feels that that war is criminal or that accepting it is a criminal attitude. In fact, we have been brainwashed. War is neither glamorous nor attractive. It is monstrous. Its very nature is one of tragedy and suffering" --Dalai Lama

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22 minutes ago, simplythis said:

New Year New Downtown. https://www.wkyc.com/article/money/economy/new-year-new-downtown-cleveland/95-a67f56a7-cc49-4f1a-8771-db48d19d9c71

Does anyone know if Ohio City W.25 St counts in the downtown numbers or not.  Probably not - but

where does downtown  end - West Bank ?

 

It does not include W 25th. If I recall correctly, it goes from E 30th (or maybe the Innerbelt, I forget which), to the river, but includes the west bank north of Detroit, and possibly Lakeview Terrace 

Edited by TPH2
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On 1/3/2020 at 12:41 PM, simplythis said:

New Year New Downtown. https://www.wkyc.com/article/money/economy/new-year-new-downtown-cleveland/95-a67f56a7-cc49-4f1a-8771-db48d19d9c71

Does anyone know if Ohio City W.25 St counts in the downtown numbers or not.  Probably not - but

where does downtown  end - West Bank ?


Can you imagine if they actually got to 30,000 by 2030? Let’s go high and say there are still enough future conversion units that 4000 people can live in (75 public square, landmark building, centennial, and other places yet to be thought of/announced).  That still means 6000 people or about 4000 units (assuming a unit has 1.5 people on average which is what I think the multiplier DCA uses) of brand new housing. Can you imagine what what 4000 units of brand new housing in new construction buildings would do to downtown? Not to mention all the retail businesses that would come to downtown as a result of that population. Exciting to think about!

Edited by cle_guy90
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